I don't understand war.


by pergradus
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pergradus
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#1
Nov11-11, 09:36 AM
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I was just reading about Remembrance day on Wiki and saw the figure that nearly 90 million people were killed in WWII and WWI... and I just can't understand how such things are possible.

How is it that people are tricked into throwing their lives away, or slaughtering their fellow man for the sake of some politician's political goals? That's what all war comes down to, money and politics, and I don't understand why people are so eager to die and kill so some guy in a suit in the capitol can profit from it all...

There must be something fundamental about the human psyche that draws men to battle, and somewhere along the lines they go from normal people to monsters. Can someone explain?
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russ_watters
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Nov11-11, 10:23 AM
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For WWII, the answer is complex because of the odd psychology of Nazi Germany, but typically the fighters either believe in the cause/their leaders or are afraid of retribution from their commanders. Note that for the allies in WWII, it was pretty easy to believe in the cause...

...but don't mistake that for "eager to die or kill."
Bobbywhy
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Nov12-11, 04:48 AM
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pergradus,

You are asking about a huge and complicated subject. There are no quick and easy responses that would satisfy your queries. Social scientists, philosophers, and others have studied war since written history began and still are still learning today. Why did primitive tribes attack their neighbors? Why did whole civilizations march across continents to conquer others? In WWII the war in Europe was already underway when Japan attacked us at Pearl Harbor. That brought out patriotic men and women from every city, town, and village of America-ready to fight the Japanese and defend our country. Wars fought in other parts of the world are more complicated, with no simple answers. Understanding why individual soldiers risk their lives in war is complex and difficult. In ancient times fighters had permission to take whatever booty they wanted from the conquered (losers), including women for their “pay”. Since 9/11, 2001 (the last ten years) no doubt that many of the volunteer military folks had patriotic motives, and some others wanted steady employment and good benefits like total medical care.

Sources of information are all around you if you live in the USA. There are tens of thousands of Veterans of Foreign Wars from Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, WWII, and some others…both men and women. Find them and ask them your questions about why they fought. I am a Vietnam Veteran and would be pleased to communicate with you in private. Just click on my name and select “send private message”.

May I suggest you visit the below sites and read up on some basics? After that you may want to explore some specific aspect of war here on Physics Forum, Social Sciences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15546c.htm

jackmell
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Nov12-11, 07:40 AM
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I don't understand war.


Quote Quote by pergradus View Post
There must be something fundamental about the human psyche that draws men to battle, and somewhere along the lines they go from normal people to monsters. Can someone explain?
Yes. It's biology: survival of the fittest. That is our inheritence. Strip all the politics, all the social values, mores, laws, customs, religion from man and you're left with raw Darwinism that very much still controls his behavior and is always seething right below the surface of social conformity, ready in a instant to erupt and exude violence in an effort to protect his genes for promulgation to the next generation.

You have been misinformed into thinking man is some holy creature above the animals. This is wrong. He is very much still an animal and bound to the same laws of Natural Selection. So when he is confronted by a challenge, a disagreement, a threat to his survival or reproductive success, his Darwinist inheritance will compell him to fight if he is capable of doing so.

Thank goodness someone is mining the store by willing to fight to the death and by doing so impart strong, healthy and favorable traits to the gene pool.

And I can't imagine any real Biologist in this forum disagreeing with me.
arildno
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Nov12-11, 08:13 AM
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You have bought into the pernicious dogma of Rousseau that men are "inherently good", and that it is merely "outer circumstances" that "cause" them to inflict suffering.

Evil is all-pervasive, ever present, and will never go away.

That is why we should cherish those elements of our existence we cannot but regard as "good" (and be prepared to defend them, with war if necessary), and in a cautious manner, see if we can make the world slightly better than what it was before we were given life's responsibility.
Astronuc
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Nov12-11, 09:46 AM
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Quote Quote by pergradus View Post
I was just reading about Remembrance day on Wiki and saw the figure that nearly 90 million people were killed in WWII and WWI... and I just can't understand how such things are possible.

How is it that people are tricked into throwing their lives away, or slaughtering their fellow man for the sake of some politician's political goals? That's what all war comes down to, money and politics, and I don't understand why people are so eager to die and kill so some guy in a suit in the capitol can profit from it all...

There must be something fundamental about the human psyche that draws men to battle, and somewhere along the lines they go from normal people to monsters. Can someone explain?
Like aggression, it's a human condition that has persisted. Other primates exhibit aggression.

Clearly there are people who are pathologically driven to aggression and war. Hopefully, there are enough people around to prevent that from escalating.

Quote Quote by arildno View Post
You have bought into the pernicious dogma of Rousseau that men are "inherently good", and that it is merely "outer circumstances" that "cause" them to inflict suffering.

Evil is all-pervasive, ever present, and will never go away.

That is why we should cherish those elements of our existence we cannot but regard as "good" (and be prepared to defend them, with war if necessary), and in a cautious manner, see if we can make the world slightly better than what it was before we were given life's responsibility.
I think some are inherently good, and some are not. Temptation is always present, but the challenge is to resist it.


A different kind of memorial (or a perspective from a witness of war)
By William Branghamand Jessica Wang
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know...emorial/12332/
Ryan_m_b
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Nov12-11, 10:03 AM
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Quote Quote by jackmell View Post
Yes. It's biology: survival of the fittest...And I can't imagine any real Biologist in this forum disagreeing with me.
Then you need to stretch your imagination somewhat. Whilst what you say is partially true it is false in that it completely ignores the selective advantage of non-violent interaction such as co-operation, altruism and symbiotism. Whilst humans (amongst other animals) have evolved mechanisms that allow us to partake in violent actions our success as a species is largely due to our increase co-operation and not because of our violent tendencies.

As to how our evolutionary history relates to war this faculty for violence combined with pack mentality and an inability to empathise well with mass groups of strangers means that human societies are quite capable of perusing violence en mass.
jackmell
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Nov12-11, 11:50 AM
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Quote Quote by Ryan_m_b View Post
our success as a species is largely due to our increase co-operation and not because of our violent tendencies.
I'm unwilling to accept "largely due" without suitable citations. On the contrary:

Look what cooperation did for the native american indian. They were weak and I belive many native indians would agree with me when I say they should have been more violent to protect their lands. But they werent', gave in, cooperated with the white man, and were desicimated because of it. Had they mounted a persistent, and extremely violent response to the first occurrence of white man, I belive they'd either still have their land or at least died as a group trying to defend it rather than allowing their offsprings to be hurded like cattle to reservations on undesirable desert land.


Look what cooperation is doing for us in Afghanistan. We're gettin' our butts kicked! And the fit ones to boot. They know we won't exercise real violence and they capitalize on it and continue to send American soldiers home that appear on the front page of the newspaper on Vet's day with their limbs blown off. Overwhelming American violence (or preferably withdraw) would resolve that problem and the Taliband would respect us for doing it too.

Look what cooperation (appeasement) did prior to WWII when Hitler began his agressive campaign. He succeeded because we were hesistant to resort to violence.

Throughout history, when did the weak ones win? More often than not, it's the strong violent ones that do. Would America have won the Revolutionary War had we tried to cooperate with Britain rather than mount a violent campaign of resistance?

Man is an animal and as such resorts to violence. And when confronted with such and animal, violence at a superior level is an effective winning strategy in my opinion.

I must make a note: I do not feel we should be in Afghanistan but if we have to fight there, then we should do so forcefully.
Ryan_m_b
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Nov12-11, 12:04 PM
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Quote Quote by jackmell View Post
I'm unwilling to accept "largely due" without suitable citations. On the contrary...Man is an animal and as such resorts to violence. And when confronted with such and animal, violence at a superior level is an effective winning strategy in my opinion
You completely misunderstand what cooperation means in a biological sense and instead have fallaciously connected it to "weakness" and violence to "strength" before going off on a political rant. Until you've read up on phenomenon like cooperation, altruism, kin-selection and other aspects of the evolution of social behaviour I would advise against posting on a topic that you demonstrate no knowledge of.
Pythagorean
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Nov12-11, 01:51 PM
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If we cooperate to kill our enemy, now that's the optimal strategy.

In game theory modeling, I believe forgiving fairness was one of the most successful models, but it still involves destroying the opponent if you think they're a danger to you.

Pure altruism is (obviously) a disadvantage. Im willing to bet the healthiest populations have a diverse array of social strategies from altruistic to greedy.
toky_world
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Nov14-11, 06:34 PM
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Nothing much to contribute but it sickens me.

People that do not hate each other to the point of kill another being. It's idiotic to kill someone else just because of a government interest or a misguided creed/belief.

Im embarrassed that I was born on the same century that the WWI, WWII. I wonder what other stupid wars lie ahead of us.
russ_watters
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Nov14-11, 09:45 PM
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Quote Quote by toky_world View Post
Im embarrassed that I was born on the same century that the WWI, WWII. I wonder what other stupid wars lie ahead of us.
Take heart: you were born in one of the most peaceful centuries between world powers since humanity arose -- probably the most peaceful half-century+ following WWII!
Drakkith
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Nov14-11, 09:59 PM
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Consider this. Someone you don't know and never met doesn't have the same values and ideals as you do. Perhaps their religious beliefs, which they have been BORN into, cause them to think of you as less than a person. Maybe they are simply easy to manipulate. Whatever the reason, they attack you, your property, your friends and family, or your community. Would you not fight back?

How about when the person leading people like this openly threaten to attack you and your community AND pose a real threat to you. Is it better to sit back and wait for them to prepare, or to take precautions and prepare ahead of time, even possibly attacking first. You can try to negotiate, but what happens when they want half of your property or money? Is it fair? Would you give it to them just to avoid bloodshed? If so, that only opens yourself to constant harassment and subjugation.

My dad was a cop for years. One day he told me a story of a court case where the jury found the defendant not guilty. Afterwards he asked one of the jurors about how they could find the defendant not guilty even after being presented with, what he thought, was overwhelming evidence of guilt. The juror told him "I just can't see how someone would do that". THAT was the reason the man was found not guilty. Because the juror couldn't understand how someone could commit that kind of crime. The reality is that unless you are of that mindset, or you have a very open mind and can make the leap between different points of view, you WILL NOT understand it. It's the same with war. How could you possibly understand how a suicide bomber sacrifices himself to kill a hundred innocent people? You CANNOT. I myself can barely understand it and I try very hard to understand people of all types and many different viewpoints.
Boy@n
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Nov14-11, 11:45 PM
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When human(s) firmly believes in idea(s) they can do what might seem unimaginable to others not knowing or accepting that idea(s).

Add mass of people going in one direction, pulling others along (willingly or not), then it's not that hard to imagine/understand why mass violence happens, not just wars, which is violence outwards, but mass suicides too, which is violence inwards.

Ideas might arise with various reasons and motives of course, it might be political, greed for money and/or power, personal convictions, and others, mostly is a mix of all of those.

Violence like rape and murder might also depend on ideas, but more often it's about imbalance of brain hormones and/or psychological imbalance.
ginru
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Nov16-11, 06:52 PM
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We're naturally competitive creatures and we'll express that nature through sports, business, relationships, and if it comes to security, then on the battlefield as well. When we've socially progressed to the point of creating a utopian society where competitive conflict is effectively balanced out with cooperative compromise, then we will have evolved beyond the use of violent war to settle our differences.
WhoWee
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Nov18-11, 09:34 PM
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Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
Consider this. Someone you don't know and never met doesn't have the same values and ideals as you do. Perhaps their religious beliefs, which they have been BORN into, cause them to think of you as less than a person. Maybe they are simply easy to manipulate. Whatever the reason, they attack you, your property, your friends and family, or your community. Would you not fight back?

How about when the person leading people like this openly threaten to attack you and your community AND pose a real threat to you. Is it better to sit back and wait for them to prepare, or to take precautions and prepare ahead of time, even possibly attacking first. You can try to negotiate, but what happens when they want half of your property or money? Is it fair? Would you give it to them just to avoid bloodshed? If so, that only opens yourself to constant harassment and subjugation.
I think most people understand this type of conflict. Unfortunately, it's not always this basic when outside influences are at work.
Drakkith
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Nov18-11, 10:27 PM
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Quote Quote by WhoWee View Post
I think most people understand this type of conflict. Unfortunately, it's not always this basic when outside influences are at work.
Really? Name me a major war in the last century where at least one side wasn't under those circumstances or similar.
Ryan_m_b
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Nov19-11, 05:20 AM
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Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
Really? Name me a major war in the last century where at least one side wasn't under those circumstances or similar.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how you mean to apply this but what about wars where a third party has got involved even though it wasn't threatened? Or a war over a political disagreement e.g. control of a territory? Regarding the latter the Falklands war springs to mind, Argentinians didn't want to kill Falklanders or British people and vis versa. The brief conflict was fought due to the historical controversy over who has the right claim to the islands, only three civilians were killed with the vast majority of the dead only soldiers. From one side's perspective they were re-occupying (relatively peacefully*) a territory, from the other was an invasion.

*By relatively peacefully I mean that the aim of the conflict was not to inflict casualties on another people but to correct a historical controversy.


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