Ron Paul's candidacy


by Char. Limit
Tags: candidacy, paul
ThomasT
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#433
Feb2-12, 12:53 AM
P: 1,414
Quote Quote by Jasongreat View Post
Before his presidency Reagan was a governor of one of the largest states in the nation, Carter a peanut farmer in Georgia. According to this Reagan was a much bigger man than Carter ;). It seems he was a bigger person, and more signifigant than carter, but you did get one thing right, he was an actor. :)
Ok, we can agee to disagree on this -- except for the height thing, which I concede.
Jasongreat
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#434
Feb2-12, 01:19 AM
P: 75
=Angry Citizen;3740684]He sure wasn't a big spender when it comes to the Depression. His reaction to the collapse was practically laissez-faire.
How about his spending leading up to the depression? He was a big spending progressive conservative, in todays terms, a compassionate conservative.

I didn't say it was a bad idea. I just said it wasn't the least bit constitutional.
I agree, I only wrote what I did to show a change in thinking in Washington. Jefferson atleast fretted about the constituionality of it, today the constitution isnt even mentioned.


Agrarian societies don't need much regulation (although the great Dust Bowl in the twenties or thirties sure does provide an incentive for some). Industrial societies, on the other hand, flat out require regulation. To say otherwise is to ignore reality. Corporations would rape the middle class if it weren't for regulation and big government. In fact, I have historical precedent: the Gilded Age.
Where did those 'evil' corporations get their monopoly power from? Government loves to cause a problem then turn around and say they have a cure. Heck, if it wasnt for governmental overreach I dont think the politicians would have much to run on. The railroads were one of the last corporations created by the old rules, by those rules they can only be a railroad. Now that the rules have changed corporations can use those exceptions the people gave them when they formed and use the money they made off those to go into other markets, helping to get to the too big to fail area. The main thing that kills me is we always hear how superior we are to past generations, if we are so superior, why do we need so much more government than they did?


Republicans really don't want larger government, at least economically.
No, but they do like expanded government when it controls the morallity of the masses.


Furthermore, where does your argument end? The same exact logic could be applied for the primacy of city/local governments. Why send money to Austin when it could be kept in Podunk Texas? Heck, why send money to the city when it could be kept on your street? While we're at it, what's with those greedy neighbors wanting my money?!? I better hide my money under my pillow and spend it only on my own interests!
And it should be, why should the city send money to the county, when they can spend it how they want where they want to better their community? Next, why should a county send money to a state, when they are in a better position to see what the county needs than the state can? And finally, why should a state send its money to the feds, to solve problems in their state. One of the things I liked in the constitution of the southern confederacy, was that they prohibited taking money from one state to make improvements in another. It seems to me it would solve alot of problems if California or Mass. or any other state were forced to pay for their failing policies, instead of taking money from their neighbors through the feds. It really helps one to see the error of their ways, when they face the consequences of those choices, on the otherhand it is very easy for people to put their heads in the sand when someone else bails them out.


This is actually quite true. But I don't believe we've ever had a non-interventionist president.

Well maybe you should read more US history. Washington was a non-interventionist, as was Madison, Monroe, Jefferson. None were isolationists though. Here is a quote from Jefferson: "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." Notice how he wants to do buisiness with all nation, not isolationist. Yet he doesnt want to get involved in entangling alliances, non-interventionist.


The prime cause was most certainly about slavery, which trickled its way down into issues like 'states rights' and other baggage which was then quite important.
Why then did it take till the end of the war for the emmancipation proclamation, seems to me if the war was about slavery, one would free the slaves then send the army out to enforce said law. I cant remember who wrote it but it was a study of the civil war, they concluded that it would have been cheaper for the feds just to pay the going rate for the souths legal property, not to mention the half million men who would get to live the rest of their lives. If war was needed to end slavery, why did no other slave owning countries have to resort to war for slavery to end?


The term I would ideally prefer is 'Democratic Republic'. However, that often has connotations of Communism (for some strange reason). A true republic does not require a voting public, and a true democracy does not have representatives. We are a representative democracy. The term 'constitutional' is usually applied only to monarchies whose country has a Constitution. Surprisingly, the UK doesn't have a constitution, and I'm rather lacking in examples of a country with that system. I think Belgium might, or maybe Spain...
Wouldnt that term mean that the majority controlled what the government could do, we have a document that controls the government, which is why it is a constitutional republic?


That's the definition of government. If it were voluntary, no one would pay taxes (except me, but I'm weird and have a sense of civic duty).
So you feel that once a state enters the federal governmental compact there is no way they can get out, which sounds like a pact with the devil to me. There is no need of force for taxes, our country went a long time on tariffs and duties. I think a national sales tax would work, if you want a ferrari you will pay the tax it takes to get one. On the other hand if the government abuses its taxing the impact would be immediate. People would quit buying the products because of the excessive tax. Unlike the system in place now, death by a thousand cuts, all federal tax would be in one place.


Not anything, but the Commerce Clause gives tremendous powers.
Tremendous powers to regulate interstate commerce, in state commerce not so much.


I beg to differ, good sir or madam. The Declaration of Independence was written at a time when the articles of confederation still hadn't come into being. If you want to see what a Ron Paul nation would look like, you may look at the nation under the Articles.
The declaration of rights was a declaration of what the citizenery of the colonies believed, the articles of confederation and then the constitution were their attempts at creating a government that would best suit those beliefs. The Declaration was the founding document of our country, the constitution was the controlling document of the federal government, atleast thats the way I see it.

The main reason I like Paul is he starts the discussion at zero, isnt that the way to barter? If we keep arguing about should the feds get 10, 20 or 30 percent, we are going to keep getting what we already have. I think we need them to show why they deserve more than 0% of my labor.
lpetrich
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#435
Feb2-12, 05:01 AM
P: 514
Quote Quote by Jasongreat View Post
Edit: Some of the faulty (anti-american ideals)history being taught(IMO)(again not a complete list):
What do you mean by "anti-American"?
A non-interventionist = an isolationist,
What's the difference?
the civil war was fought to end slavery,
Why is that notion "anti-American"? Although I will concede that it's incorrect, that does not make it anti-American, just that the North was not as good as we might have wanted it to be.

In any case, the Confederate politicians had been very big on protecting slavery.

You might find this analysis of the Confederate Constitution an eye-opener: Constitution of the Confederate States of America- what was changed?
Most of it is cribbed from the US Constitution. It's not very big on states' rights -- it adds a few and it substracts a few, but it has no changes in the more contentious parts of the Constitution, like the Commerce Clause.

But it was big on defending slavery. While the US Constitution's writers avoided mentioning slaves and slavery explicitly, the Confederate Constitution's writers were explicit, like where they stated "No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed." Yes, it forbids outlawing slavery.
that our founders founded a nation,
They didn't found 13 separate nations, that's for sure.

Wimpy government has been tried, and it's a failure. Look at Somalia. Also look at Poland in the 17th and 18th cys. They had a reform in their parliament called the Liberum Veto, where any MP could veto some proposal. Yes, only one was necessary. That made it easy to obstruct the parliament's business, and in the late 18th cy., Austria, Prussia, and Russia divided Poland up between them. In 1795, Poland disappeared from the map.
that the US is a Democracy and not a reprentative constitutional republic.
I've never understood the "republic not a democracy" meme. The US is clearly a representative democracy, not some oligarchic republic where the vote and public office are restricted to a small elite. Some republic like the Roman Republic or the Republic of Venice.
That anyone supporting state rights is a racist.
Again, being mistaken != being anti-American.

A lot of racists hid behind states' rights during the civil-rights struggle.
That the constitution is our founding document, instead of the Declaration of Independence.
It's the Constitution that's legally binding, not the DoI.

That a strong imperialistic posture, was what our founders wanted, when they mentioned national defense(a huge faux paux, since it was the imperialistic policies of the british government our founders revolted against,imo).
Are the numerous "conservative" advocates of hawkish foreign policies really "anti-American"? Just for starters, that would include just about every Republican Presidential candidate but Ron Paul.
Dotini
Dotini is offline
#436
Feb2-12, 07:08 AM
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This chart will help readers get an idea where they fit on the political spectrum.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PL07fcBkGN...plundChart.jpg

Respectfully,
Steve
Jimmy Snyder
Jimmy Snyder is offline
#437
Feb2-12, 07:17 AM
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It still would have been useless, but at least he could have put centrists in the center.
Angry Citizen
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#438
Feb2-12, 08:25 AM
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How about his spending leading up to the depression? He was a big spending progressive conservative, in todays terms, a compassionate conservative.
I would very much like to know how, because an admittedly cursory examination of history shows this to be false.

Where did those 'evil' corporations get their monopoly power from?
Folks like Andrew Carnegie used to have a philosophy. First they'd create a company. Then they'd purchase everything that the company needed to create its product. Then they'd purchase everything that the company needed to ship its product to consumers. Then they'd try to buy out other companies in the industry. It was a system known as vertical integration, if I remember correctly. No government required. Indeed, it wasn't until the anti-trust laws came about that monopolies could be legally eliminated.

And it should be, why should the city send money to the county, when they can spend it how they want where they want to better their community? Next, why should a county send money to a state, when they are in a better position to see what the county needs than the state can? And finally, why should a state send its money to the feds, to solve problems in their state. One of the things I liked in the constitution of the southern confederacy, was that they prohibited taking money from one state to make improvements in another. It seems to me it would solve alot of problems if California or Mass. or any other state were forced to pay for their failing policies, instead of taking money from their neighbors through the feds. It really helps one to see the error of their ways, when they face the consequences of those choices, on the otherhand it is very easy for people to put their heads in the sand when someone else bails them out.
I agree regarding California, but you have to understand that the Republicans pushed through a constitutional referendum limiting the ability of the government to raise taxes. That is essentially the problem with California today.

However, I think your decentralization is dangerous and precedents exist showing just how dangerous it is. Instead of fifty regulations, you would have thousands - each from a different city!

Well maybe you should read more US history. Washington was a non-interventionist, as was Madison, Monroe, Jefferson.
Madison, for instance, eventually found the position of non-interventionism untenable during the War of 1812. Both French and British would board American vessels bound for the other's shores. Intervention comes to you from without if you do not seek it from within.

Why then did it take till the end of the war for the emmancipation proclamation, seems to me if the war was about slavery, one would free the slaves then send the army out to enforce said law.
The Emancipation Proclamation was a wonderful propaganda piece, but it was essentially a useless document for the purposes of freeing the slaves. The run-up to the Civil War was the growing abolitionist movement and the prohibition of the importation of foreign slaves. The Army responded to the opening shots fired by the Confederacy.

Wouldnt that term mean that the majority controlled what the government could do, we have a document that controls the government, which is why it is a constitutional republic?
No, it means that representatives are elected based on majority votes.

So you feel that once a state enters the federal governmental compact there is no way they can get out, which sounds like a pact with the devil to me.
Sounds like an attempt to maintain union to me.

I think a national sales tax would work
I used to think that. Then I realized that paying twenty cents on the dollar for everything would disproportionately harm the poor rather than the rich, not to mention the fact that the rich often use their money for items that are not sales tax worthy. A progressive income tax works. See Scandinavia.

I think we need them to show why they deserve more than 0% of my labor.
Because we tried a system without an income tax. It didn't work, not even in a time when America was an agrarian society.
lpetrich
lpetrich is offline
#439
Feb2-12, 09:48 AM
P: 514
Quote Quote by Jasongreat View Post
Where did those 'evil' corporations get their monopoly power from?
So no business can possibly do bad things? As Angry Citizen noted, it's possible to build a monopoly by legitimate business practices, like buying the competition. It's also possible to use less-legitimate practices, like demanding that business partners not deal with rivals. That's what Microsoft has done with operating-system preloads. Make it significantly more expensive to preload Windows on 99.99+% of a company's PC's than to preload Windows on 100.00% of them. This makes it much more difficult for that company to offer preloaded alternates. There are even less legitimate practices, like physically attacking rivals, as in the frog wars between railroad companies in the 19th cy., and between rival criminal gangs. One might argue that that's not true capitalism, but that seems to me the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Washington was a non-interventionist, as was Madison, Monroe, Jefferson. None were isolationists though. Here is a quote from Jefferson: "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." Notice how he wants to do buisiness with all nation, not isolationist. Yet he doesnt want to get involved in entangling alliances, non-interventionist.
Commerce with no military involvement? That's idealistic nonsense that only works with friendly nations. Even in the early years of the US, that policy could not be made to work.
So you feel that once a state enters the federal governmental compact there is no way they can get out, which sounds like a pact with the devil to me.
If the other states agree to secession, then I'm sure that national-level politicians will go along. That's an interesting historical riddle -- why was the North reluctant to let the South secede? Could it be the attack on Fort Sumter? Or concern about being weakened by division?

What's so patriotic about secession, anyway?
I think we need them to show why they deserve more than 0% of my labor.
To get protected, for starters.
mheslep
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#440
Feb2-12, 10:05 AM
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Quote Quote by ThomasT View Post
...We know now that he was clinically senile for most of his second term in office.
Well, "there you go again". At best all you will find are anecdotes about senility. As to being a 'stooge', Reagan was a prolific writer. You can judge for yourself from his ample letters and radio speeches.
http://www.amazon.com/Reagan-His-Own.../dp/074320123X

And from the PBS series, Howard Baker taking over from the disgruntled Don Regan as Chief of Staff:

Narrator: What Baker's transition team was told by Don Regan's White House staff that weekend shocked them. Reagan was "inattentive," "inept," and "lazy" and Baker should be prepared to invoke the 25th amendment to relieve him of his duties.

Edmund Morris, Official Biographer: The incoming Baker people all decided to have a meeting with him on the Monday morning, their first official meeting with the President and to cluster around the table in the Cabinet Room and watch him very, very closely to see how he behaved, to see if he was indeed losing his mental grip. They positioned themselves very strategically around the table so they could watch him from various angles, listen to him and check his movements and listen to his words and look into his eyes. And I was there when this meeting took place. And Reagan who was, of course, completely unaware that they were launching a death watch on him, came in stimulated by the press of all these new people and performed splendidly. At the end of the meeting they figuratively threw up their hands realizing he was in perfect command of himself.

Howard Baker, Chief of Staff (archival): Ladies and gentlemen, is this president fully in control of his Presidency? Is he alert? Is he fully engaged? Is he in contact with the problems? And I'm telling ya, it's just one day's experience and maybe that's not enough, but today he was superb.

Reporter (archival): And Mrs. Reagan? The issue of Mrs. Reagan's involvement in West Wing decisions?

Howard Baker, Chief of Staff (archival): I haven't talked to Mrs. Reagan today. I intend to do that later today. I intend to do that later today. But let me say, I've known Nancy Reagan a long time too. And I did speak to her on Friday, and I expect -- there's the phone now.

Howard Baker, Chief of Staff: From moment one at the White House with Ronald Reagan, I came away convinced not only was he fully in command -- fully competent -- but that -- he was not being well served by the arrangements in the White House -- but that he was fully capable of discharging that job in a very, very effective way. And I still think that
.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexpe...an-transcript/
lpetrich
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#441
Feb2-12, 10:08 AM
P: 514
I spent some time perusing what the candidates have recently stated about Iran, and Ron Paul is the only dovish one. I could easily find hawkish statements from Barack Obama, Michele Bachmann, Herman Cain, Newt Gingrich, Jon Huntsman, Sarah Palin, Tim Pawlenty, Rick Perry, Mitt Romney, and Rick Santorum.
Dotini
Dotini is offline
#442
Feb2-12, 11:22 AM
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Quote Quote by lpetrich View Post
I spent some time perusing what the candidates have recently stated about Iran, and Ron Paul is the only dovish one. I could easily find hawkish statements from Barack Obama, Michele Bachmann, Herman Cain, Newt Gingrich, Jon Huntsman, Sarah Palin, Tim Pawlenty, Rick Perry, Mitt Romney, and Rick Santorum.
If more war and debt is sincerely desired, there are many to choose from who will leap to take us there. Romney, for instance, has surrounded himself with neocons, those wonderful folks who lied us into Iraq.

If you value peace above all else, our only current choice is Ron Paul.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve
Jasongreat
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#443
Feb2-12, 06:28 PM
P: 75
Quote Quote by lpetrich View Post
What do you mean by "anti-American"?

What's the difference?

Why is that notion "anti-American"? Although I will concede that it's incorrect, that does not make it anti-American, just that the North was not as good as we might have wanted it to be.

In any case, the Confederate politicians had been very big on protecting slavery.

You might find this analysis of the Confederate Constitution an eye-opener: Constitution of the Confederate States of America- what was changed?
Most of it is cribbed from the US Constitution. It's not very big on states' rights -- it adds a few and it substracts a few, but it has no changes in the more contentious parts of the Constitution, like the Commerce Clause.

But it was big on defending slavery. While the US Constitution's writers avoided mentioning slaves and slavery explicitly, the Confederate Constitution's writers were explicit, like where they stated "No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed." Yes, it forbids outlawing slavery.

They didn't found 13 separate nations, that's for sure.

Wimpy government has been tried, and it's a failure. Look at Somalia. Also look at Poland in the 17th and 18th cys. They had a reform in their parliament called the Liberum Veto, where any MP could veto some proposal. Yes, only one was necessary. That made it easy to obstruct the parliament's business, and in the late 18th cy., Austria, Prussia, and Russia divided Poland up between them. In 1795, Poland disappeared from the map.

I've never understood the "republic not a democracy" meme. The US is clearly a representative democracy, not some oligarchic republic where the vote and public office are restricted to a small elite. Some republic like the Roman Republic or the Republic of Venice.

Again, being mistaken != being anti-American.

A lot of racists hid behind states' rights during the civil-rights struggle.

It's the Constitution that's legally binding, not the DoI.


Are the numerous "conservative" advocates of hawkish foreign policies really "anti-American"? Just for starters, that would include just about every Republican Presidential candidate but Ron Paul.
Sorry, I misspoke, I meant un-american. As I have said in my other posts, the DOI was a statement of beliefs the colonists shared, so I consider those tenets in the DOI, american. If a belief runs contrary to that document I consider it an un-american belief. Still though there are alot of un-american policies that are anti-american, as in they hurt americans.

The south was trying to protect thier legal property, it was the US government when writing the constitution that continued the princple of slaves(human beings) being property. Protecting property is one of the enumerated powers of the general government. The south added to their constitution that no other slaves may be imported. By the by, I have read their constitution before, while I was reading the rise and fall of the confederate states by Jefferson Davis.

The founders did found thirteen different colonies(countries) domestically, one unified front for foreign affairs like treaties, wars, and trade, atleast they intended to.

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states;
The only problem I have with the term democracy being used is we are not a democracy, that belief is the one that allows for the justification of tyrannical policies. Quite a few supreme court decisions I have read say that even though there is not a power in the constitution allowing it they feel the people want it, therefore they agree to it. The only way the will of the people overides the US Constitution, is superduper-majorities of the states ammending the constitution.

The constitution should be legally binding, however it has not proven to be so in most cases. The constitution was based on the beliefs asserted in the DOI.

Yes, every candidate except Paul is war-hawkish, including Obama.

Edit: One of the proposals voted down was the inclusion of the word nation in the constitution, they opted for united states.
Jasongreat
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#444
Feb2-12, 07:18 PM
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Quote Quote by Angry Citizen View Post
I would very much like to know how, because an admittedly cursory examination of history shows this to be false.

I agree regarding California, but you have to understand that the Republicans pushed through a constitutional referendum limiting the ability of the government to raise taxes. That is essentially the problem with California today.

However, I think your decentralization is dangerous and precedents exist showing just how dangerous it is. Instead of fifty regulations, you would have thousands - each from a different city!



Madison, for instance, eventually found the position of non-interventionism untenable during the War of 1812. Both French and British would board American vessels bound for the other's shores. Intervention comes to you from without if you do not seek it from within.



The Emancipation Proclamation was a wonderful propaganda piece, but it was essentially a useless document for the purposes of freeing the slaves. The run-up to the Civil War was the growing abolitionist movement and the prohibition of the importation of foreign slaves. The Army responded to the opening shots fired by the Confederacy.



No, it means that representatives are elected based on majority votes.



Sounds like an attempt to maintain union to me.



I used to think that. Then I realized that paying twenty cents on the dollar for everything would disproportionately harm the poor rather than the rich, not to mention the fact that the rich often use their money for items that are not sales tax worthy. A progressive income tax works. See Scandinavia.



Because we tried a system without an income tax. It didn't work, not even in a time when America was an agrarian society.
Hoover was a self described progressive reformer, according to his wiki page. Hoover signed the revenue act of 32 which raised taxes to 63% on wealthy individuals. The depression only worsened. Harding in the early twenties, reduced the top tax rate from 73%, revenues increased and the forgotten depression ended, the roaring twenties began.

California's problem is not that they took too few taxes, it is that they spend too much.

Nice strawman, dont you think most locallities would make similar regulations? The city should be free to do everything relating to the individual. Like moral laws, gun laws, whatever that little group feels is in their best interest. Then the counties come along and legislates, what the cities dont have the resources to do on their own, then the state comes along and legislates whatever the counties cant do for themselves, then the feds legislate everything that the states cant do for themselves. Seems to me a simple plan, which would work better than what we have now? How does someone in Washington know the interests of the localities, 2000 miles away? I can see far more mischief coming from a one size fits all nation, than a to each its own confederacy.

I like your Madison argument, he was an interventionist because he went to war against others intervening in our affairs. The british were intervening in our trade and in our domestic affairs(supporting indians), as well as imprisoning americans to involuntary servitude in the royal navy through impressment. My point still stands, Madison was not an interventionist.

By your own definition then we were a constitutional republic until the ratification of the 17th ammendment in 1912, when the progressive era was in full swing. Is it a coincidence that those wanting to enlarge the powers of the federal government were also the ones who started refering to the US as a democracy?

See:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness
. That whenever the form of government becomes destructive it is the right of the people to abolish said government. Sounds to me like the founders beilieved in seccession. I stated in my earlier post that one of the first proposals in the convention was the use of Nation, they chose united states instead.

On my proposal of a sales tax, I never included what I thought those taxes should be applied to. I think any staple needed to live like food and shelter should be tax free, and every product not needed would be taxed like cell phones, cars, computers, etc;.

If by didnt work you mean did not allow for the ever increasing size and scope of the general government, I agree, however if you meant did not provide sufficient revenue to provide the government our constitution set up I disagree. We had no income tax until Lincoln used one to pay for his war, then it came back permantly when progressives wanted to increase the size of government, coincidence?
MarcoD
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#445
Feb2-12, 07:42 PM
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Statements from the time suggest otherwise. In President Lincoln's first inaugural address, he said, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so."

During the war, in an 1862 letter to the New York Daily Tribune editor Horace Greeley, Lincoln said, "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery." A recent article by Baltimore's Loyola College Professor Thomas DiLorenzo titled "The Great Centralizer," in The Independent Review (Fall 1998), cites quotation after quotation of similar northern sentiment about slavery.

Lincoln's intentions, as well as that of many northern politicians, were summarized by Stephen Douglas during the presidential debates. Douglas accused Lincoln of wanting to "impose on the nation a uniformity of local laws and institutions and a moral homogeneity dictated by the central government" that "place at defiance the intentions of the republic's founders." Douglas was right, and Lincoln's vision for our nation has now been accomplished beyond anything he could have possibly dreamed.
Personally, I would say that the civil war was about slavery for some, not all, and -publicly- not for Lincoln.

Does it matter? It was centuries ago.
turbo
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#446
Feb2-12, 08:48 PM
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Quote Quote by MarcoD View Post
Personally, I would say that the civil war was about slavery for some, not all, and -publicly- not for Lincoln.

Does it matter? It was centuries ago.
It was a blink of the eye in long-term historical terms, and practically yesterday for any Southerners who hold a grudge against the "War of Northern Aggression". Most of the $$$$$$$$ artifacts that I auctioned in my years in selling military artifacts were sold to wealthy southerners who had collections.
Tosh5457
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#447
Feb2-12, 09:01 PM
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Just for the fact that Ron Paul is the only candidate (including Obama) that won't do favors to corporations because of their donations, it deserves the vote more than the others. Moreover he'd end much of the corporatism by reducing the government and by ending (at least trying) the Fed.
Angry Citizen
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Feb2-12, 09:05 PM
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Quote Quote by Tosh5457 View Post
Just for the fact that Ron Paul is the only candidate (including Obama) that won't do favors to corporations because of their donations, it deserves the vote more than the others. Moreover he'd end much of the corporatism by reducing the government and by ending (at least trying) the Fed.
Do you know why the Fed is so bad? I'd really like to know, because I think most Paulites are just repeating the soundbyte.
ParticleGrl
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#449
Feb2-12, 10:07 PM
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Quote Quote by JasonGreat
Edit: Some of the faulty (anti-american ideals)history being taught(IMO)(again not a complete list):... the civil war was fought to end slavery
I call BS. And thinking this betrays such a lack of study that no one should give you the benefit of the doubt on anything you've written about history.

The south succeeded and tried to raise a country with the EXPLICIT goal of defending slavery. Read the succession documents from the various states! Here is a choice quote from the Cornerstone Speech:

Quote Quote by Alexander Stephens
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition
Alexander Stephens was the vice president of the Confederacy. He was not alone in championing this "ideal",again-the South succeeded, according to its leaders explicitly to defend slavery.

And always remember- the opening act of aggression in the Civil War was South Carolina militia firing on Fort Sumter.
Tosh5457
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#450
Feb2-12, 10:09 PM
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Quote Quote by Angry Citizen View Post
Do you know why the Fed is so bad? I'd really like to know, because I think most Paulites are just repeating the soundbyte.
In principle I don't think a central bank is bad, it can reduce the volatility in GDP and inflation. I have a problem with the Fed in particular, and the influences and interests behind it (particularly the banking sector). An independent agency which controls the monetary market is prone to be influenced by special interests, that's expected. Greenspan was appointed chairman because he's a neoliberal, and the same happened with Bernanke.
Aside from this, then there's the lender of last resort issue, which Greenspan put in practice and Bernanke followed. Corporations can't expect the Fed will be there to lend money when they need, there have to be other solutions, namely more regulation. Now Wall Street will go back to what it always did, certainly partly because they know there's a lender of last resort.


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