Obama's Candidacy

mege

Every female already had access to birth control, his policy just makes sure that someone else is paying for it.

He basically constructed a straw man and beat it down with his 'contraception mandate'. What deficiency was he honestly correcting? This 'separation philosophy' is coming at the expense of everyone's choice. What is the harm in allowing someone (or a religious orgnization...) a choice in what medical coverage they buy? Freedom is constricted via the President's policies (with this being the latest in a long line), I don't see how there is any other way to look at it.

I'm far from being a religious person, but President Obama (and his cohort) are waging a war on freedoms, starting with Religion. If (reasonable) Religious freedom can be thrown to the wayside by the government so easilly, what other freedoms should I be prepared to give up? Women (and men) already had the freedom to buy contraception, but now they lack the freedom to NOT buy contraception (via paying for insurance).

Pythagorean

Your twisting the meaning; the point of healthcare reform is that everyone gets access to healthcare financially and this should be regardless of what beliefs their employers hold.

turbo

And that's not a bad policy. Birth control is cheap. Pregnancies and childbirth can be very expensive. That's why the employees of faith-based companies can often get free riders to provide contraceptives even if the companies refuse to pay for the service.

mege

What about the employee's beliefs? 'Employers' aren't the only ones with beliefs. Individuals, despite what many leftists belief, do have beliefs of their own that may not be owed to religion or some other orthodoxy. Even if that belief IS owed to some religion - does it really make it less viable?

And I didn't twist the meaning in the slightest, the paradigm is slanted from the start. Being against a mandate does not mean that one wants the total opposite mandated instead. ie: just because I think that a contraception mandate is entirely unneccessary that does not mean that I am against the use/purchase/etc of contraception. I think that the mandate is being unfairly posed as a matter of 'women's health' when it is nothing more than another purposely divisive policy that strips individuals of their freedom of choice. If an individual (woman in this case) is employed in a job that has health benefits and they are unable to afford birth control out of pocket, then they probably have larger problems (I paid for my college GF's pills out of pocket: we got it from a corner pharmacy, unsubsidized, from a 'normal' doctor (not planned parenthood) for ~$15/mo). Making birth control 'free' to women does NOT change the fact that many people still are not responsible for themselves and make bad decisions anyhow. This policy is purely idealogical and has very narrow real impact compared to the constriction of freedom imposed. This President has no problem imposing his beliefs on others, but yet has the gall to tell people that their beliefs are totally invalid.

To put this in different terms: where is the problem inherent in the system that requires such a change that it is neccessary to step on individual's concience and personal freedoms?

Hobin

The very simple fact that these beliefs are destructive to other people.

MarcoD

I think you misunderstood the question and the problem. Moreover, you're projecting local Dutch custom on the US. AFAIK, he made a good point.

mege

Personal responsibility is destructive to other people?

Is there an example of a reasonably responsible person that has been 'left out in the cold' regarding contraception due to the status quo? Like I mentioned above - the pill is not expensive, and 'free' condoms are generally already available from NGOs.

The 'contraception mandate' was not in response to some grand call for making birth control illegal. Even Rick Santorum (as an example of the religious 'boogie man') is on record noting that while his family doesn't use birth control, he does not believe it should be banned - but he also believes that making birth control mandatory erodes on individual freedoms.

This is just one of many facets to the ultimate 'insurance mandate' problem. Many states already have a 'contraception mandate' - and while they pose a much less problem (especially since nearly every state with a mandate has a clause for concience objections), an individual can move from state to state unfettered, just like an individual can normally move from job to job if they don't like the benefits. Under the Presidents dictate - this is no longer possible and half of the states which did not have a contraception mandate now have had their soverignty taken away. In a general sense, the all-consuming-power of this President is eroding freedoms and choice bit by bit. The choice to use/buy/sell contraceptions exists. Now, we're left with only the choice to use or not - with zero benefit to show for it. "Freedoms for you, as long as I agree with them" - DNC mantra.

WhoWee

This thread is about Obama - please don't de-rail with off topic comments about the other candidates.

Jimmy Snyder

Then why do we need a law to enforce what would happen on its own anyway?

russ_watters

That leads well into another point I was wanting to bring up:

First off, I'd like to see your evidence that the "US wants progressive". I think the mid-term elections are evidence it doesn't. And (citation later), it has been true for a long time that the US self-identifies itself as more conservative than liberal.

In addition - and more relevant than today - even though the republican candidates are actively campaigning to their conservative base, more Americans still say Obama is too liberal than say Santorum or Romney are to conservative:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/152954/Ha...HvZQBQ.twitter

In other words, many people who voted for Obama thought he was more moderate than he really is. Now after seeing him in office, they realize just how liberal he is.

Now for the last part, there may be an issue of biased self-reporting at work and it is something that I've perceived a lot at PF: liberals, even ones that are pretty far to the left, often self-label as "moderates" (a few even as conservative!) even though they aren't. But 40% to 20% is still a big gap.

On the other hand, the poll also reports that Obama has roughly the same split of people agreeing vs disagreeing with him on the issues as those other two candidates. However, this may result from Obama's actions not following his beliefs due to being beaten toward the center by the Republicans. For example, he was pushing for a second stimulus, which he never got, at about the same time as he was signing debt control legislation. This can make his "policies" vs his beliefs hard to reconcile.

Evo

Each candidate has their own thread. Please keep all discussions specifically about the canidate.

WhoWee

I think one of the problems the President has with the healthcare reform is that it hasn't been fully implemented yet and details continue to seep out that some embrace and others reject - this is a good example. Personally, when I see a contraceptive mandate - I have to wonder how close these plans will ultimately come to being the "Cadillac Plans" the President originally intended to punish?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...revision_N.htm

"A proposed 40% tax on high-priced or "Cadillac" health care plans would begin in 2018 instead of 2013, as originally proposed by the Senate. And the definition of a high-end policy would increase to $27,500 for a family, instead of $23,000.

The Senate's version of the tax, which was projected to raise $150 billion over 10 years, was opposed by labor unions. House Democrats, including Speaker Nancy Pelosi, had raised reservations about its impact. A typical family policy costs more than $13,000 in 2009, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.

Andy Stern, president of the Service Employees International Union, indicated that there would be support from labor leaders for Obama's new proposal. "Working families deserve health insurance that covers more and costs less," he said."

Please note the annual cost of these plans - premiums of over $2,000 per month before the elimination of the lifetime cap and other mandates.

Pythagorean

You've skewed my words here with selective quoting... go back and read the sentence again and compare to what you've written. Once you've done that, look at the link below.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/116479/ba...-approval.aspx

On the particular issue we are discussing, you can see there's still a large body of the US supporting his decision (about half).

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152963/Co...ing-Women.aspx

It's going to come down to swing votes in the end, which means those of us that are looking for the lesser evil. When it comes to a choice between Santorum and Obama, it will be Obama for me. Romney and Obama... I might not even bother voting. I would say they're about equally the lesser evil; Obama is just smoother on stage. Then again, maybe a smooth talker is better for foreign affairs.

And of course, remember that approval ratings don't tell you who people think is the lesser evil. I may not approve of a lot of what Obama does, but that doesn't mean I want Santorum as president if that was the alternative.

Hobin

It definitely is.

ThomasT

I think Obama's personality is better for an American figurehead ... given that other things are equal, which I don't think they are. That is, of the three you mentioned, Obama is clearly the best choice, imho.

Pythagorean

Employees aren't forced to take contraceptive... nobody is... or what are you implying?

Nobody said you were....

How?

So what?

So what?

So what? This policy reduces the chance that their irresponsibility will result in another mouth for the US to feed. It saves money by removing that burden.

You still have yet to demonstrate freedoms taken away from individual employee.

No individual's rights are being stepped on. Insurance companies and religious institutions are not individuals. Birth control is simply not being discriminated against as a medical issue. It's religious institution that wanted to be the exception, not many other employers even recognized this as some special case of health.

Hobin

Well, if it were clear, it's strange that so many people talk about the presidential campaign and who's going to win, isn't it? (I agree with you, though.)