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Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants

by gmax137
Tags: earthquake, japan, nuclear
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SteveElbows
#12439
Mar1-12, 06:29 AM
P: 630
Anybody got any comments on the radiation readings, photos or videos of the recent robot activity inside reactor 2 building (mostly 5th floor)?

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushi...20228_04-e.pdf

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/news/110311/index-e.html

I haven't looked at the videos yet but it was good to see an image of the area above the reactor well, not obscured by barriers this time as they gave the new robot a longer camera arm.
etudiant
#12440
Mar1-12, 06:41 AM
PF Gold
P: 866
Quote Quote by SteveElbows View Post
Not sure why you say that, unless we are talking about different sorts of gas management systems. Reactor 2 has had one for months now (thats where the gas sample analysis is coming from for that reactor, Xe133 etc) and reactor 3's started operation on Feb 23rd.

I haven't spent ages studying the video footage but isn't the area in question between reactors 2 & 3, not 3 & 4?

Looking at Tepco status updates covering Feb 28th, there is one operation that could be relevant:

From 8:51 am to 3:45 pm on February 28, according to the investigation on trenches on January 19, 2012, high density contaminated water inside was found inside circulating water pump discharge valve pit of Unit 3 water pump room. Therefore, we started to transfer the accumulated water from the pit to the basement of Unit 2 Turbine Building.
Thank you, the suggestion seems a plausible explanation.
Re gas management, my mistake. I was thinking of the emissions management, which is a different aspect.
Gas management has indeed been ongoing for months at reactors 1 and 2.
zapperzero
#12441
Mar1-12, 07:18 AM
P: 1,045
Well this is odd.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_01.jpg
a large number of pairs of rubber boots are ranged neatly near what seems to be the concrete cap of the reactor well (unit 2). The picture was taken with a robot.
another odd detail in
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_02.jpg
there are bits of what seems to be the SFP guardrail (the remains of bottom panels, to be precise) which seem melted and burnt.
there seems to be some discoloration/soot here as well:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_03.jpg
HowlerMonkey
#12442
Mar1-12, 09:32 AM
P: 277
That might be smoke/steam from an internal combustion engine.

I would assume they would eventually repair and start some of the generators or other engine run equipment on the facility with the first start billowing much white smoke.

Just a guess.
Jorge Stolfi
#12443
Mar1-12, 10:02 AM
P: 279
I haven't spent ages studying the video footage but isn't the area in question between reactors 2 & 3, not 3 & 4?
Indeed, my mistake.
r-j
#12444
Mar1-12, 11:49 AM
P: 30
http://youtu.be/fimRJocH_90

This video talks about cracks in the soil at the plant. Which started after earthquakes. Has there been an earthquake near there of late?
denislaurent
#12445
Mar1-12, 12:38 PM
P: 5
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
Well this is odd.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_01.jpg
a large number of pairs of rubber boots are ranged neatly near what seems to be the concrete cap of the reactor well (unit 2). The picture was taken with a robot.
another odd detail in
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_02.jpg
there are bits of what seems to be the SFP guardrail (the remains of bottom panels, to be precise) which seem melted and burnt.
there seems to be some discoloration/soot here as well:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_03.jpg
Plus some kind of photoshopping ... http://www.gen4.fr/blog/ (french)
shadowncs
#12446
Mar1-12, 01:28 PM
P: 18
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
Well this is odd.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_01.jpg
a large number of pairs of rubber boots are ranged neatly near what seems to be the concrete cap of the reactor well (unit 2). The picture was taken with a robot.
another odd detail in
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_02.jpg
there are bits of what seems to be the SFP guardrail (the remains of bottom panels, to be precise) which seem melted and burnt.
there seems to be some discoloration/soot here as well:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_03.jpg
From the curvature of the panels in PIC 2 as well as from the position of the FHM in PIC 1 (present in PIC 2 on the right) I'd say those guardrail panels are the top of reactor guard panels (also visible from the other side in PIC 1)
Jim Lagerfeld
#12447
Mar1-12, 08:00 PM
P: 42
Quote Quote by denislaurent View Post
Plus some kind of photoshopping ... http://www.gen4.fr/blog/ (french)
I'm intrigued, that sure is some shoddy work with the clone stamp! And the comparison with the low-res video-cap from the same spot proves that it is not an honest stitching artifact but rather a shoddy attempt at removing something from the hi-res image.
Atomfritz
#12448
Mar1-12, 08:11 PM
P: 74
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
Well this is odd.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_01.jpg
a large number of pairs of rubber boots are ranged neatly near what seems to be the concrete cap of the reactor well (unit 2). The picture was taken with a robot.
And the trash bags lying around... looks like a messie's home.
A German bakery would be closed if regulators found such a mess at the workplace.

Edit: Look at the end of the rail in the lower left of the image. Looks somehow unusual, rail transiting into concrete seamlessly, making me think of photoshop.
Edit2: Thanks denislaurent for the link, there is even more of strange details that I find somehow suspicious.
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
another odd detail in
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_02.jpg
there are bits of what seems to be the SFP guardrail (the remains of bottom panels, to be precise) which seem melted and burnt.
The concrete (dis)coloration indicates that condensation happens here up to saturation.
To me the crane rails seem thoroughly rusted. I think they will have completely crumbled in a few years if nothing protective is done, making the recovery of the spent fuel using the old crane impossible.
IMO Tepco should grease them with water displacer asap to avoid complicarions like this.
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
there seems to be some discoloration/soot here as well:
http://www.tepco.co.jp/tepconews/pre.../120228_03.jpg
I am not sure if soot.
High humidity and discolorations concentrating in lower parts, where main condensation occurs.
Black fungus thrives in the Chernobyl sarcophagus in extremely radioactive areas, why should this be different in Fukushima?
Looking closely, mostly organic surfaces (plastics and paint) seem discolored, and these are preferred by fungi.
timid3000
#12449
Mar1-12, 08:28 PM
P: 1
Quote Quote by denislaurent View Post
Plus some kind of photoshopping ... http://www.gen4.fr/blog/ (french)
If you look at the video (3:08), you can see that some kind of error occured while taking the picture (look at the screenshots I attached).
The idea of photoshopping a picture they are not mandated to release in the first place sounds weird to me, especially when the "hidden" area seems to only contain a piece of paint that fell off from somewhere.
Attached Thumbnails
cam1.jpg   cam2.jpg   cam3.jpg  
jmelson
#12450
Mar1-12, 10:53 PM
P: 48
Quote Quote by Atomfritz View Post
And the trash bags lying around... looks like a messie's home.
Oh, come on! This is a building that was subjected to a powerful earthquake,
then a mil-level explosion!
I think they will have completely crumbled in a few years if nothing protective is done, making the recovery of the spent fuel using the old crane impossible.
IMO Tepco should grease them with water displacer asap to avoid complicarions like this.
Any use of the main crane or the FHM is pretty much out of the question.
If the earthquake didn't damage the support rails, the explosion would have.
Unless the rails were tested very thoroughly and re-surveyed by millwrights, the
crane could fall off the rails the first time it was moved, adding major complications
to any recovery. Massive corrosion is probably going to be a problem in the
disassembly of the plant, though, you are right. The Quince displays show
9 C and ~75% RH, which is a bad situation.

Jon
zapperzero
#12451
Mar2-12, 12:06 AM
P: 1,045
Quote Quote by Atomfritz View Post
Looking closely, mostly organic surfaces (plastics and paint) seem discolored, and these are preferred by fungi.
The panel closest to the camera seems to be missing altogether - which is why I thought fire in the first place.
zapperzero
#12452
Mar2-12, 12:29 AM
P: 1,045
Quote Quote by jmelson View Post
Oh, come on! This is a building that was subjected to a powerful earthquake,
then a mil-level explosion!
Jon
Excuse me, what explosion would that be? Afaik, there was a blast somewhere in the vicinity of the torus (5 levels down) and the concrete plug of the reactor well seems to be in its place so I don't think the torus breach could have very much bearing on whatever happened to those panels.

Also, this deck is supposed to have remained untouched by humans ever since the accident. I do not understand the boots, but if they are there since the earthquake, well... why would other stuff be strewn about willy-nilly? Remember that unit 2 is the one with the roof still intact.
Rive
#12453
Mar2-12, 02:01 AM
P: 357
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
Excuse me, what explosion would that be?
There was no explosion, true: however judged by the survey map of the level there was something coming up around the concrete plug of the reactor, and I think it's safe to assume that it wasn't cold nor careful.

Boots and the pink plastic bags/sheets: as I remember to the pre-accident tour pictures such things are often used during any activities on the top floor - for example for a refueling operation practically the whole site is wrapped up. We don't have any information about what was in progress right before the accident happened.
duccio
#12454
Mar2-12, 02:43 AM
P: 21
Quote Quote by Jim Lagerfeld View Post
I'm intrigued, that sure is some shoddy work with the clone stamp! And the comparison with the low-res video-cap from the same spot proves that it is not an honest stitching artifact but rather a shoddy attempt at removing something from the hi-res image.
As they have released also the unedited video, I doubt there is a big conspiracy plan behind. What I'd bet had happened, is the PR guy/webmaster/poor young engineer responsible for drafting press releases and hand-outs, was told to get 3-4 shots out of the video, clean them up as best as he could and make a pdf out of it. If you notice, exposure, light, color also change in the pictures, that are brighter and more detailed than the video (video is so dark that it's even difficult to spot the boots). Trying to clean up the pictures, he probably overdid here and there
Atomfritz
#12455
Mar2-12, 03:17 AM
P: 74
Regarding the strange image distorting/tile duplication which makes the impression of image editing:

I have looked at the video and the image closely trying to find out what could be the reason for this.

Just to save typing I copied my comment on Ex-SKF here:
Now downloaded the video and looked at it closely.
Around 3:10 plus/minus a few seconds there can be taken some more observations.

As Yosaku correctly notes, the image is parted up into 16 tiles, apparently transmitted sequentially, strangely of unequal size (would really like to know the technical reason why the tiles aren't equal-sized).

The image "blacks out" when the radiation counter jumped to about 0.2 sieverts (in 1 meter height? probably then higher near at floor level where the electronics are probably located).

The operator then hastily moved back Quince. I suppose it was a quick reaction to protect Quince 2 from crashing/latching-up because of radiation.

However, what appears strange to me is the discrepancy of the image shown in the video and the high-res image.
But there could be several benign technical explanations for this.
The display on the Quince control panel (showed in the video) is probably a zoomed-down version of the native resolution of the camera image.

But then the question comes up: how came the seamless impression of the duplicate tile which makes the impression of image editing?
If the tile was a simple duplicate as Yosaku assumes, it would be easily recognizable, like a copied-pasted part of the image.

It is probably not that simple.
When you look very carefully at the hires image you get the impression that the lower left tile actually could be sort of averaging overlaying of two tiles.
Technically this could be caused by a line decoder malfunction caused by radiation, leading to two lines being read out simultaneously, mixing/averaging the output.

So I have to retract my suspicion of image editing, as there seems to be nothing of particular importance in the lower-left image tile.

However, one thing can possibly be concluded of this: Quince's electronics radiation resistance probably is around 0.2 sieverts (assuming the radiation counter is located near the electronics)
I fear Tepco has to be very careful to avoid Quince 2 to die soon too.
Any thoughts/comments about this?
Rive
#12456
Mar2-12, 03:35 AM
P: 357
Quote Quote by Atomfritz View Post
Any thoughts/comments about this?
IIRC those robots were surveyed much nastier places there, so I don't think that they have so limited radiation resistance.

About the tiles: as far as I know it's a common practice that the operator gets a live video feed with limited resolution only to conserve bandwidth, and he can ask for full resolution still images if necessary. (Maybe this is the explanation of the luminance difference between the video and the picture used for the pdf document.)

The live feed has twenty-some frames per second, it's pretty resistant against any coding- or transmission errors while the still images are more sensitive. Maybe that's all.


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