U.S. soldier kills 16 Afghan civilians


by fellupahill
Tags: afghan, civilians, kills, soldier
fellupahill
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#1
Mar11-12, 02:25 PM
P: 62
http://wtvr.com/2012/03/11/u-s-soldi...s-karzai-says/

As an infantryman in the army, I dealed with situations like this a lot. But it was always haji on haji killings. Never a fellow US Soldier. I just dont see anyone letting something like this happen. When a man is degrading to that point, people notice. Especially people as invested in your stability as your squad(You never get yourself killed, you get your buddy killed). I dont understand how someone gets to that point, and no one stops him. It all seems too whitewashed. Ive personally witnessed the US Militarys upper brass cover, and contort the truth many times and so have all of you. Im convinced this has to be the case. Somehow this event is tied to their agenda. Don't ask me how, but if this ACTUALLY happened and this ACTUALLY hurt the coalition's real agenda then we would not have learned the truth this quick. It would have been covered up. Accusations of an enemy stronghold would have been made. All this information is flowing around a little too unobtrusively.

Things just dont add up.
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Office_Shredder
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#2
Mar11-12, 02:48 PM
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The link you posted gets re-directed to a different story. I searched on the website and it looks like this is what you're referring to

http://wtvr.com/2012/03/11/u-s-soldi...s-karzai-says/
fellupahill
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#3
Mar11-12, 02:58 PM
P: 62
Fixed, thanks.

fellupahill
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#4
Mar11-12, 03:00 PM
P: 62

U.S. soldier kills 16 Afghan civilians


http://wtaq.com/news/articles/2012/m...ul-government/

This link reports there were multiple gunmen, says witnesses....

Honestly, who knows whats true anymore.
Bobbywhy
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#5
Mar11-12, 08:56 PM
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fellupahill, I salute you for your past military service.

I have read many news media versions of what happened in Afghanistan regarding the killing of Afghani families by one US soldier. There are photos disseminated by independent news agencies of dead and burned children. Images like these speak far louder than any words written about the event. From the information already released, the soldier went outside his base heavily armed and wearing night vision equipment, entered three individual homes, and assassinated sixteen Afghani citizens including four women and nine children. The soldier then returned to his own base, turned himself in, and admitted the killings. It is an extraordinarily shocking story, and bound to have huge effects.

In Afghanistan we can expect a massive outpouring of anger, rage, and violence against all foreign coalition personnel. In the United States and Great Britain there will be increased demands to leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

fellupahill, even though in your experiences you have seen military brass cover-ups, where is the evidence this event is “tied to their agenda”. Your justification, “Don't ask me how, but if this ACTUALLY happened and this ACTUALLY hurt the coalition's real agenda then we would not have learned the truth this quick.” does not seem to make any logical sense.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,2649151.story
jduster
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#6
Mar11-12, 09:25 PM
P: 46
Let's get one thing straight.

This is an isolated incident. It does not represent the U.S., the U.S. military or the U.S. military mission in Afghanistan as a whole.

There are thousands of fatal car crashes each year but those are isolated incidents, not related to the concept of driving cars in general.
lisab
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#7
Mar11-12, 10:03 PM
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Quote Quote by jduster View Post
Let's get one thing straight.

This is an isolated incident. It does not represent the U.S., the U.S. military or the U.S. military mission in Afghanistan as a whole.

There are thousands of fatal car crashes each year but those are isolated incidents, not related to the concept of driving cars in general.
You're right. It's just one guy, one incident. But the relevant question is, how will the Afghans feel about it? And more importantly (for the troops stationed there) - what will their reaction be?

I have a very bad feeling about it.
Bobbywhy
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#8
Mar11-12, 10:06 PM
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jduster, no doubt you are exactly correct: tens of thousands of coalition soldiers have served honorably and correctly in Afghanistan and the murders in Kandahar saturday are an abberation. The consequences, however, are going to be monumental!

Remember, the Afghani view, including the Taliban, of military occupiers is quite different from those in the West (coalition forces). Additionally, the entire Moslem world of >One Billion faithful will all see this terrible event as as attack by Christians on them. So sorry to bear such dreadful news.
jduster
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#9
Mar11-12, 10:13 PM
P: 46
Quote Quote by Bobbywhy View Post
jduster, no doubt you are exactly correct: tens of thousands of coalition soldiers have served honorably and correctly in Afghanistan and the murders in Kandahar saturday are an abberation. The consequences, however, are going to be monumental!

Remember, the Afghani view, including the Taliban, of military occupiers is quite different from those in the West (coalition forces). Additionally, the entire Moslem world of >One Billion faithful will all see this terrible event as as attack by Christians on them. So sorry to bear such dreadful news.
Yes that is entirely true.
dipole
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#10
Mar11-12, 10:16 PM
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Quote Quote by jduster View Post
Let's get one thing straight.

This is an isolated incident. It does not represent the U.S., the U.S. military or the U.S. military mission in Afghanistan as a whole.

There are thousands of fatal car crashes each year but those are isolated incidents, not related to the concept of driving cars in general.
I disagree. You all signed up for these wars, you all traded your civilian lives for a paycheck and the benefits of being in the military. I think all soldiers share a responsibility in these kinds of atrocities, because you all willingly participate in the war machine which creates these horrible scenes of death and human suffering.

This isn't Vietnam, no one can claim they got drafted and didn't know what they were in for. And seriously, have a little respect - instead of being so concerned with how people are going to view the U.S. military, how about a little concerned for 16 innocent people murdered in their own homes senselessly?
lisab
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#11
Mar11-12, 10:23 PM
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Quote Quote by dipole View Post
I disagree. You all signed up for these wars, you all traded your civilian lives for a paycheck and the benefits of being in the military. I think all soldiers share a responsibility in these kinds of atrocities, because you all willingly participate in the war machine which creates these horrible scenes of death and human suffering.

This isn't Vietnam, no one can claim they got drafted and didn't know what they were in for. And seriously, have a little respect - instead of being so concerned with how people are going to view the U.S. military, how about a little concerned for 16 innocent people murdered in their own homes senselessly?
Will you feel the same way if it turns out the shooter had mental illness or a similar extenuating circumstance?
dipole
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#12
Mar11-12, 10:27 PM
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Quote Quote by lisab View Post
Will you feel the same way if it turns out the shooter had mental illness or a similar extenuating circumstance?
Yes because there's no excuse for the military to put a gun in the hands of someone like that.

That's a pretty big cop out of you, is it not possible the guy was just a complete bastard?
gravenewworld
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#13
Mar11-12, 10:51 PM
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Quote Quote by jduster View Post
Let's get one thing straight.

This is an isolated incident. It does not represent the U.S., the U.S. military or the U.S. military mission in Afghanistan as a whole.

There are thousands of fatal car crashes each year but those are isolated incidents, not related to the concept of driving cars in general.
Riiiight, what flag is on his uniform when he was pulling that trigger? Incidents like this can mar everything we stand for. Nobody remembers any of your good deeds over the long run, but what IS remembered is when one of our people wearing our uniform kills a bunch of children. There's no excuse for this, just as there is no excuse for the mass killings of civilians by US soldiers during the Vietnam War at Mai Lai.
gravenewworld
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#14
Mar11-12, 10:53 PM
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Quote Quote by lisab View Post
Will you feel the same way if it turns out the shooter had mental illness or a similar extenuating circumstance?
Not a viable excuse either. We shouldn't be putting mentally unstable people behind rifles in countries that aren't ours.
lisab
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#15
Mar11-12, 10:54 PM
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Quote Quote by dipole View Post
I disagree. You all signed up for these wars, you all traded your civilian lives for a paycheck and the benefits of being in the military. I think all soldiers share a responsibility in these kinds of atrocities, because you all willingly participate in the war machine which creates these horrible scenes of death and human suffering.

This isn't Vietnam, no one can claim they got drafted and didn't know what they were in for. And seriously, have a little respect - instead of being so concerned with how people are going to view the U.S. military, how about a little concerned for 16 innocent people murdered in their own homes senselessly?
Quote Quote by lisab View Post
Will you feel the same way if it turns out the shooter had mental illness or a similar extenuating circumstance?
Quote Quote by dipole View Post
Yes because there's no excuse for the military to put a gun in the hands of someone like that.

That's a pretty big cop out of you, is it not possible the guy was just a complete bastard?
Asking you a question is not a cop out.

Your logic is all over the map here. In your first post, you emphatically stated "all enlisted personnel share a responsibility" for this horrible act by this one guy.

Then you shift the responsibility to whoever put a gun in this guy's hands.

In both cases though, you're spreading the responsibility pretty thin.

It's perfectly acceptable to be angry -- I am too. But keep this in mind: we don't know the facts yet.
fellupahill
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#16
Mar11-12, 11:31 PM
P: 62
Quote Quote by jduster View Post
Let's get one thing straight.

This is an isolated incident. It does not represent the U.S., the U.S. military or the U.S. military mission in Afghanistan as a whole.

There are thousands of fatal car crashes each year but those are isolated incidents, not related to the concept of driving cars in general.
Come on now people. Use your heads.
There is a much higher percentage of douche bag, backwards thinking, screwups in the military. Its just how it is. We are not trained to be police officers(thats not true, they try to train us), we are trained for combat. A vast majority of the men in my unit would not have passed the psych evals to become a police officer. Now we are asking a bunch of unstable killers to POLICE CIVILIANS. Put us in a war fighting bad guys. Nazi's were can handle. The US Government and the members of the boards at Haliburton and Lockheed and Martin have us wasting tax dolars, and our servicemen and the iraqi and afgani civilians are the ones spending the bloodmoney.

*** Unstable killer is an exaggeration.

Edit: Screw bad guys or nazi's. I would have settled for fighting anyone with a uniform. Cause when all the people who are trying to kill you and your buddies look a certain way its easy to group others in the same category.

Being a soldier in the US Army is hard once you realize one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
fellupahill
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#17
Mar11-12, 11:35 PM
P: 62
Quote Quote by Bobbywhy View Post
fellupahill, I salute you for your past military service.
does not seem to make any logical sense.
Would you say the same if I said that the Chain of command decided to lie to the american people and a dead soldiers family just to keep moral up? There were no logistical or strategic, much less logical reasons for lying about friendly fire in Tillmans case.

Like I said guys. We don't let things that will make our eye look black without a fight. Unless its planned.
chiro
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#18
Mar12-12, 02:50 AM
P: 4,570
I'm not going to judge someone for being in the military, or anything else but regardless of what you do, you have to take personal responsibility for your actions.

If the guy killed 16 people, then he murdered 16 people: simple as that. The fact that they were civilians including children to me is disgusting in the sense that it is weak but that's another story not relevant here.

I don't know if the guy will face a trial of any sort (I doubt he will face conviction for this and spend time in prison), but never the less he made a decision and he has to seen as personally responsible for his decision.

I don't agree with the military, but I am aware that the world doesn't work like a utopia so I understand it's 'role' in such a 'world' of insecurity.

The thing is, I see a lot of these people go into the military only to find out the hard way what they signed up for, and although these people did some bad things by many people's standards, we should be thankful for the ones that 'tell it like it is' to the rest of us: these kind of people are telling us 'what really goes on in the world' and quite frankly I don't think the military industrial complex wants a bad PR campaign against them.

Sometimes the truth is so horrible, that everyone needs to hear it and see it in its unedited form and unfortunately I don't think most of us in some societies even know or actually realize the extent of even 1% of what the world is really like.

I think if people really ever saw what a lot of the soldiers ever see overseas, it would be so horrifying if we dehumanized people ever got horrified. We all think it's cool to watch James Bond sip a Martini after he's killed 20 'bad guys' on screen, but they don't want to accept what the real world is like and the responsibility that comes with changing it.

But for any military people reading this, you should know what you signed up for. If you want to deny what you did or justify it in any means, that's your business and I certainly don't know anything about you in any way so anything I say about you is going to be null and void for all practical purposes but I will say this: you should have known somewhere in your mind what you signed up for and whatever choices you have made are your own ultimately.

This guy can say whatever he wanted to, but he will no doubt have to face up the fact that is he personally responsible for his actions one way or another which will probably be between him and God.


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