Can magnets control fire?

DJDAudio

Bingo, that is what I was thinking as well. You can even hear it slightly.

As for an experiment, I set up the rig again last night and this time I went with a large coil mounted fixed with a deflection shield, I then ran 10KV DC to a cap bank, and sent an Directed EMP at the flame, and sure enough it would 'poof' on impact. like explained above, it was not a huge effect but noticeable.

Also interesting effect, while the caps where charging the fire would 'list' or slightly lean as if attracted to the coil, then on fire, it would move abruptly in the opposite direction.

I would love to test this in a vacuum, the only problem is getting fire to burn with no oxygen :P

DJDAudio

You got it! Let me work on a sketch,

As for my power supply,



It is a 15,000 Watt X-Ray transformer. The above pic is with it removed from the oil. the full wave bridge is on the left side.

The output voltage was first calculated by the arc distance I was getting consistent arcing at 0.787" so for AC that is about 47KV being that I was using DC my best guess was 50KV

I then grabbed my High voltage probe,
Mine looks just like this,


And verified my output.

Now with the fire on, all bets are off, for it shortened the arc distance as well as introduced a dynamic load.


the fire was being fed from a large Lab bunsen burner, similar to this,


And was fed an constant stream of propane. As for the flow, I was not worried about this, for all I needed was a consistent height flame for the tests.


and for my EMP tests last night I used my Glassman,



I have much more consistent control over current and voltage.




Now you asked about control, I can not bend the fire and hold it there, the pictures abaove where after many takes to get right, the effect is pulsed, for once the fire conducts the full force of the current it deflects drops the connection and repeats,

so the effect is a fast oscillating almost chaotic experience. I did find through pictures I was able to effect the shape of the fire for only milliseconds at a time. for the reasons stated above.

When I get some free time, I will try to recreate my original setup and get some video to explain as well

DJDAudio

Also I will mention the 15,000Watt X-Ray transformer I had to current limit to 600Watts for the test, for at full power, the fire ball that was formed at full flame deflection got to be many feet in length!

DJDAudio

And here is a picture of the Power supply I built to control the X-Ray transformer.

Edgardo

- In this textbook (page 468) they describe how a combustion flame changes in a magnetic field.

- This here describes how neodymium magnets deflect a candle flame. (Though I am a little concerned if this actually happens: video of a spoon "pushing" a flame)

DJDAudio

This was a one in a million shot, this is at the exact moment the arc conducts through the flame and the huge current inrush throws the flame violently, so much in fact, you can still see the electric arc that is going to nothing on the left side.

DJDAudio

The spoon one ( this is just a hunch ) is accurate, but for different reasons, there is a large air flow around the flame from the different air density so when the spoon is introduced a slight laminar flow is introduced and a smooth inrush of cool air air allowed to stream up and into the flame, this boosts the flame height as well as allows the flame to follow with or bend in the new air current.

DJDAudio

I see allot of people talking about how the Oxygen is the effected medium in the experiments,

I have a 99.99% Oxygen generator that will generate 5L/m of oxygen, I will try to recreate my experiment but this time change the oxygen concentration to see if indeed there is any change in the effect, if it holds true I should see more of a deflection in the flame.

truman

How much of this effect can be accounted for by rapidly heated air expanding around the arc and disrupting the flame?

DJDAudio

the arc is only about 600watts so the heat generated would be miniscule in comparison to that of the flame. So I would say it has minimal effect.



But the Fire does have an effect on the arc interestingly enough.

cmb

This is a known effect. Flames are distorted in the presence of an electric field. A colleague mentioned some years ago that the effect had been used to actually measure electric field strength, when other methods were less suitable. (I am not sure if that was his own creative idea, or whether it had actually been done.)

Not sure what you'd see in a vacuum - the plasma would fill the vacuum chamber, whereas here you have a distinct plasma edge where ionisation/recombination drops to negligible levels.

Edgardo

Here are some videos of flames in presence of an electric field:
1. Corona Wind Electric Flames
2. Corona Wind Effect
3. High Voltage Corona Wind
4. Singing Candle

bbbeard

Are you under the impression that wire coils with charge flowing through them have a net charge? I think you are confusing "charge" with "current".

FWIW I did a science project in high school in which I showed that a magnetic field significantly affected the resistance of a Bunsen burner flame. Extra credit if you can predict whether the resistance went up, or down, when the magnetic field was turned on, and explain why. However, I did not try to measure the flame shape with and without the magnetic field.

BBB

cjameshuff

To some degree, yes, magnets can control (or at least influence) fire. Flames are generally at least partially ionized (and various salts will ionize in flames, which is how the old "flame test" and colored fireworks work), and a net charge is not required, only a conductive fluid (saltwater can be manipulated electromagnetically too, and the plasma in fusion reactors like tokamaks is pretty neutral overall).

The same basic effects can even be used to directly produce electrical power...MHD generators are an area of active research and power plants using the technology have been built and operated. The focus there is in converting motion of combusting gases to electrical power, though, not in doing any particularly complex control via magnetic fields.

Teiwaz

Ok so i took over 30 matches to run a test, i placed two magnets on either side of a standard box wood match, near the base of the match facing one another , The match was held with a stationary tweezer like structure, and when the fire reached the area of the magnet it died out or in some cases, reversed the flame direction. I also did a few tests where the matches did not have magnets, in which case the entire match in all cases were consumed. What this means i do not know.. but i found it interesting.. I assumed because the magnet might be a conductor there could have been a possibility of heat transfer... but wasnt sure. either that or the magnets actually did stop the flame from burning the entire match in which case im interested to find out what that means...

oh and i took four magnets and placed them on the match and noticed i could actually box in the flame well, until the wood inbetween the magnets was no longer able to burn.

cjameshuff

This is unlikely to show any effect due to the magnetic field, anything you see is likely just due to the cold, air-obstructing magnets. The flame isn't substantially magnetic like iron is, it needs to be moving through the magnetic field or carrying an electrical current, or the magnetic field needs to be changing rapidly so it induces a current in the flame.