Faster Than Light Travel, Theories.

Nimbian

Any one who has been following my other Thread (Simulated Gravity) knows that I've trying to write a Hard(ish) Science Fiction novel.

I'm looking for help in firming up my "FTL Drives" and trying to use current Real world knowledge

Currently there is two ways to "cheat" the speed of light (in my Universe). Both are Gravity related, primarily because Gravity is currently a unknown but measurable force.

The First is the "Jump Drive" where a ship temporarily leaves our universe only to come back at its destination. Ignoring the power requirements of such a feat. Currently my "idea" is that when two (or more) Microscopic Black holes (Quantum Singularities I believe they are called) Are brought within a certain distance of each other (around 250m) and then both are force fed a Quantum entangled particle, while in a significant gravity well, the resulting link pulls the mass around the micro black holes out of our universe and to a what one could call a "pin head" universe that lacks any sort of Polarization. This Universe rejects the mater breaking the quantum entanglement and forcing the ship back into our universe usually in a different spot, and in a predictable manner (else there wouldn't be much use for a unreliable FTL Drive).

There are issues with this drive thou. the First being the manufacture and stabilization of the Quantum Singularities. The Entangled Pairs are relatively easy to make using SPDC. The Second is Manufactured for Story reasons, requires the Pair to be in a larger gravity well (like that of the sun or Jupiter).
The Third is time, like every thing else in the "pin head" universe is compressed. While in there they are accelerated, Subjectively only a few seconds if not less will have passed for the occupants while while a significant (to humans any way) amount of time has pasted any where from 2 weeks to a month.

Benefits, it Theoretically can go anywhere there is a large enough Gravity field for it to emerge. The Trip is very quick for the passengers thus reducing how much food and other supplies they would need.

Does this Theory make sense (within current understanding)? is there any thing like it current understanding? What would make it more complete? How would you change it to have it make more Practical Sense?

I know I could just say this is how it works and thats that, but it never hurts to see whats out there.

Also thank you for reading, and for any replies

sophiecentaur

We're into the realms of Star Trek and, hence, into 'speculation'. This is not in the brief of PF, I think. Read the rules. They don't include Science Fiction.

Nimbian

Thanks for the Move I didn't even know there was a SF section

Ryan_m_b

Nope it doesn't make any sense. You've got lots of technobabble but no science, placing black holes near each other is not going to bend the universe to the point where you jump from one place to the other any more than placing any mass close to each other would. AFAIK the only FTL that physics entertains (that doesn't mean supports) is wormholes and warp drives. Both require exotic matter that most likely didn't exist.

My advice would be in a case like this where your plot device clearly isn't in agreement with what is currently known don't try to justify it with what we know. Instead make up something entirely new, semi-make up something that the characters don't fully understand or don't explain it at all. I have examples of all three used in various media if you want some research material.

Nimbian

Thanks for the Reply Ryan_m_b

And your entirely right that the characters need not understand how the drive works, either then pressing a button and being in a different place. In fact only one character will know how it works, but won't be inclined to share.

I am looking for Internal constancy.

Most SF FTL drives require at least in some way "tricking" the universe it behaving in a way that contradicts know or conventional physics. Which is what the Jump Drive does.

Here is how I came up with my Idea.

First off the Distance between the QS is important,
Newton's law of universal gravitation states that every point mass in the universe attracts every other point mass with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.

Second, no one knows exactly what Gravity is, is it a particle? A Wave? Some Exotic matter that is yet unobservable? A Combination there of? My presupposition is that Gravity is a form of quantum entanglement that affects all matter. (Thus connecting all Traditional matter in the universe to each other.

When the Entangled pair is introduced to the Two QS, it essentially takes on the Entangled properties. Cloning of Entangled pairs are Possible see This article.

Now back to Newtons Law. These Two Masses are now effectively connected on a Quantum level. with a Distance at least on a Quantum level being effectively zero. Now there is no science to predict what a QS is Much less the result of entangling two or more will do. so it is safely within the realm of SF.

In my "plot Device" these it effectively expands the Event Horizon to that of a much larger Singularity (Black hole), one that is the distance of the QS apart. but since Quantum entanglement decays (and decays faster when more mass is involved) the Event Horizon is unstable and shrinks immediately and instantly Its this processes that Kicks the vessel out of our universe. Provided there is sufficient nearby mass to slow/distort this process (otherwise the vessel is just crushed)

In the story the first time this happened it was a complete in utter accident.

Does what I am basing it on make more sense now? or is it still just technobable to you?

Ryan_m_b

Still technobabble I'm afraid. Gravity isn't a total mystery, just because we don't have a quantum theory of gravity doesn't mean that we don't know a lot about it. As for the rest of your ideas they don't really make sense e.g. "expanding the event horizon to kick the vessel out of the universe" and "gravity is quantum entanglement for everything".

My advice remains the same as above, either invent entirely new physical phenomenon (e.g. hyperspace) or never/barely talk about it other than to list its capabilities and limitations. Trying to go halfway by inventing partially new physics to allow the impossible is rarely a good idea, firstly because it will constrain your writing to the point where it might bore laypeople and secondly it will most likely break the willing suspension of disbelief for writers who know enough to know that what your writing is wrong or nonsense.

Nimbian

First thanks for making me do a lot more research on the subject
No your quite right, Gravity isn't a total mystery.

It is just a Force which we can observe and Measure, yet all of the current models out there that predict the effects of Gravity can not, currently, tell us what gravity IS. Is is Faraday Lines? Gravitons (a particle)? Gravity waves? or some other elementary particle form past Quarks and Leptons? Which is more Accurate? String Theory? Supersting Theory?, M-Theory? Loop Quantum Gravity? Even the most accepted and best understood, Theory of General relativity, can not predict all aspects of Gravity.

But simply because we can predict with with almost absolute certainty that the sun will set in one direction and rise in another doesn't mean can't exploit the phenomenon nor does it mean we know what elements compose the sun ( understand that for the most part we actually do understand what elements compose the sun it's just and example). And its that uncertainty that Makes Both science and science fiction possible.

Technically speaking I am using a New physical Phenomenon "Hyperspace" = Another universe where the physical laws are different. I have described this as the mode of travel. The Jump drive forces the vessel out of our universe/reality/spacetime and into another which rejects (it like misplaced mail) and sends it back usually in a particular, thus Measurable, thus modifiable manner. Essentially Creating a Wormhole into another dimension/universe/alternate spacetime, then changing the return location thru some action in "Hyperspace". What my "theory" is is essentially an attempt at describing how Leaving the universe takes place.

What I'm attempting to describe is this. If you some how create a Physical impossibility (some thing that is not supported by local physics) then the universe (which in my story is connected to an infinite number of other universes, including even antimatter universes, thru some yet unknown force) then universe reacts, with an equal (in terms of energy level) reaction. In a Space-time curvature (commonly known as a Gravity well) the vessel leaves the universe. In space that has no significant curvature something else happens maybe nothing, or possibly the vessel turns into energy/plasma.

I'm attempting to approach it as if the drive already exists and simply trying to explain Why it works the way it does. Sure I'm trying (and failing) to attach it to existing Theories, but that shouldn't mean I should just give up, No Theory I've come across describes a universe like mine, or how to cross dimensions.

So I have fixated on a physical phenomenon, know as Black Holes, and primary on their even Horizions. mainly due to this description

If there is no Actual mass involved where does the contents of a shrinking Event Horizon GO? Possibly using conventional theory it goes no where.

And while the Audience may never know how the drive actually works. I the writer do, How can I describe a transition to another universe without knowing what Physics Laws I'm breaking?
How does that affect the ship? the Passengers? Their Minds? While the answer to all these questions is simply however the story needs them to be, I the writer want more, I want more so that I can fill in the description of the setting with a Level of constant Physics. I don't want to say every time some thing happens is because "its just due to the Quantum Singularities miss aligning." or some such Bull. If some thing just must happen then I can just use ye'old Plot device and make it happen. but with sensible constraints it forces you to be more creative in your solutions, and makes a story more believable.

Sorry for the lengthy reply. I'm kinda passionate on the subject... :)

ReaverKing

Hi. I'm ReaverKing, also a Newbie and a friend of Nimbian's in the world with sunlight and stuff. We've been sharing this particular "sci-fi" universe for short stories and RPG settings since we were in high school. He's obsessed with getting it as close to scientific reality as possible. My focus is mostly on the social sciences. What would HAPPEN to a society permanently in space? Would anything even change at all?

Nimbian's big deal is he tends to get kinda paralysed unless he has some logical structure to work from. If he doesn't have one he gets obsessed with building one till he does have one. Sort of like an obsessive-compulsive cat falling off a desk with a ball of string really (and just as entertaining).

For myself, I'm working primarily with our other imaginary method of FTL travel: Wormholes.

I remember reading/seeing a theory about the topology of space that states that in areas of deep interstellar space where there is absolutely nothing that wormholes can spontaneously form. I believe this either is or is related in some way to the Casimir effect. As a result, all that is needed is a "macguffin" (quasi-magical device) that is capable of generating a mass-negative field in front of a moving spaceship in a region of space with zero (or near-zero) relative gravity to theoretically stabilize and traverse a wormhole, if not outright create one. As an added constraint, I envision an as-yet not-completely-specified distance limitation between the origin point and exit point due to the unstable nature of the wormholes.

In fictional "under-the-hood" terms the mass-negative field would have to be capable of obscuring the ship's own "mass profile" thus creating constraints on ship design. Power requirements are sufficiently enormous that there are freqent "layovers" on long trips as the field generator cools off and recharges. The part I can't find an excuse for is creating the intended "Exit mouth" for the wormhole. That's where the people with the engineering degrees would have come in a few hundred years from now. Any comments or advice as well as any limitations such a method of travel would run up against would be appreciated. Often where things fall down is the most interesting part.

Ryan_m_b

I'm pretty sure we know it better than that, i.e. we can rule out quarks and leptons, it's considered a wave etc. I'm not an expert on this however so I can't help much more.
Actually I'd say that in the majority of cases this isn't what hyperspace-esque fiction is. Rather than leaving the universe entirely in most SF it's entering a different "dimension" of the same universe. A good way to think about it is like up and down in flatland. If you've not come accross this before think of a 2d world populated by 2d polygons. One day one says to another "I've made a machine that can fly in the 3rd dimension", the other doesn't understand and whilst he can see the machine (a plane) he can't figure out what it does. The inventor then gets in his plane and takes off. For the second polygon it's as though the first and his machine have just disappeared, they may even reappear elsewhere having bypassed all the 2d obstacles in the way. Does that make sense? It might not impact on your fiction if you want it to be a totally new universe but then the question arises what determines where/when the craft arrives in this universe and returns to ours.
Sorry but again this is all just technobabble sciency words strung together with no real meaning. For example:

• Physical impossibilities are by definition impossible so you can't create one
• Reacting in terms of equal energy level doesn't make sense in this context. How does the universe react with equal energy to an impossible event?
• I get what a gravity well is but leaving the universe by one makes no sense
• The curvature of space doesn't really have any bearing here. AFAIK it's not a deciding factor in whether or not multiverses exist
• Lastly turning into energy/plasma seems an arbitrary response to the creation of an impossible "thing"

I'm not saying you should give up at all I understand that you're dedicated to your fiction. All I hope to do is point out where there is a lack of sense and hopefully provide alternative ideas or general writing advice.
Black holes evapourate by hawking radiation. Nothing leaves this universe.
That's one of my points I hope to impart, you don't have to break any laws of physics. Just make up laws that superceed them.
The thing is you're going to have to make all of this up anyway. You can't start from an impossible premise then ask what the laws of physics would say about it. I.e. "what do the laws of physics say would happen to one's mind if I broke the laws of physics and sent some people to another universe via an impossible thing?"

I think you should consider ditching the idea of making it so very close to known physics (or at least explaining it) because you can't. It's like trying to make ice in fire. There is no known plausible way of travelling faster than light or to other universes. Considering that's what you want you're not going to be able to do it by trying to twist what we currently know. At some point you've just got to sit back and start making it up.

Ryan_m_b

Welcome to the forums
My favourite part of science fiction is the exploration of the social aspects. As to what you say specifically there is huge scope but it all depends on the technology and historical context.
Lol, having internally consistant macguffin is important.
You could pretty much make up most of what you want here as there is no known way of making the negative mass/energy needed (especially in quantities, I've read wormhole papers where the estimates were solar system quantities of mass to make a wormhole). My advice here would be to decide how close you want to stick to what is currently speculated about wormholes and then from that start designing your system. I.e.

• Are your wormholes going to be spherical or planar?
• Are they made in pairs and one has to be transported or can they be projected?
• How will you deal with the ease in which time travel can be accomplished with wormholes?
• What are the size, range and energy limitations?
• Do wormholes need to be in space (common SF troupe is for them to be far from gravity fields or in Lagrange points) or can they be on planetary surfaces?
• If the latter does your civilisation need spacecraft at all?
• If they are relatively cheap and can go anywhere what will a civilisation look like where towns/cities/space stations are linked via wormhole roads to others either nearby or thousands of lightyears away?

Lot's of scope for interesting stories there. More so than for interesting ways to link it to current day physics IMO. If you like I can recommend some novels/series that deal with many of these options in different ways.

Nimbian

I can answer most of these

• Are your wormholes going to be spherical or planar?
  Planar
  
• Are they made in pairs and one has to be transported or can they be projected?
  They Can be projected, but only a few light years, an only to a valid/physically possible location
  
• How will you deal with the ease in which time travel can be accomplished with wormholes?
  in our universe (the fictional one) Wormholes require a lot of energy to project and maintain in most cases so the artificial ones will be temporary, excepting microscopic wormholes which are used for FTL communication. Time Travel is theoretically possible by influencing the physical Properties of an opening but 99.99% of the time any thing made of matter would be torn apart
  
• What are the size, range and energy limitations?
  Size, 10m to the edges of the "flat" plane of space time see bellow. Range Theoretically infinite, but range is based on how "Flat" plane of space projecting the wormhole is, Energy Limitations, High, biased on range and size, most ships can manage a few systems before they have to stop to refuel, a few as defined by a range from 2-4
  
• Do wormholes need to be in space (common SF troupe is for them to be far from gravity fields or in Lagrange points) or can they be on planetary surfaces?
  Wormholes can be formed any place where Gravity/Curved space time isn't (has to be flat). Effectively in space only, Usually on the edges of systems and/or above or below the plane, Lagrange points are commonly used but usually (due to their complicated nature) they usually used as shortcuts within a system rather then as a lunching point to another.
• If the latter does your civilization need spacecraft at all?
  Yes, and for more then just space travel (defense, inter-system Travel, etc)
  
• If they are relatively cheap and can go anywhere what will a civilization look like where towns/cities/space stations are linked via wormhole roads to others either nearby or thousands of light years away?
  By the time of the story I'm writing there are stations that are connected by Wormhole highways, but its expensive.
  During the time he is writing its considered possible simply too expensive to build and maintain, especially with the perceived external and internal threats

I'll tackle your reply to me later today if I have time :) As always thanks for the reply and the time.

ReaverKing

Nimbian pretty much answered everything but I wanted to add a few points:

1. Time Travel - due to my totally limited understanding, I assumed that because I read wormholes have to be moving to create time dilation effects, there would be none. I never considered that using a wormhole would result in effects related to relative motion. (i.e. jumping from one bullet ricocheting off another bullet) I just let myself assume (incorrectly) that the wormholes are static (which would have other problems related to cancelling relative motion)

I have no real answer for this. Our shared Universe spans your typical "immense period of time" and I prefer writing in an era where trips lasting months or years is still "acceptable". That way, extremely limited time dilation effects (i.e. days/weeks) are essentially negligible. Also, there is (as yet) no measurable evidence of macroscopic time travel (i.e. receiving messages from the future) in the Actual universe so...


2. wow. I've severely underestimated the fuel costs. Again, no answer.


3. Wormhole dimensions - no "long tunnels" a la Stargate or Farscape or something. More like Dune - momentary connections between two flat regions of space-time with no measurable "connecting" zone. Your standard temporary "door" or "portal" idea. TBH I have no idea how distance is calculated or where an "exit" is placed, I'm just going with the same "engineers from 400 years from now" excuse from before.

As an aside: the Casimir effect is based on the idea of "virtual particles". Would an object transitioning a wormhole temporarily become unstable/energy/or in some way "virtual" itself? 'cause I wrote this great scene where a guilt-ridden Admiral gets himself drunk before interstellar travel as a form of self-punishment and upchucks lightning during the transition...

Nimbian

Me and Reaverking meet quite often to discuss our universe.

First thou he pointed out something to me. Ryan I am sorry, re-reading my posts it looks like I was acting like I was defending rather then having a dialog. I apologize if I gave the impression that I was taking it personally. and Hope you have not taken offense at any thing I have said. So far you've been forcing me to think more logically and actually define things that so far have been left in the wind, so again Thank you

Second
Me and Reaverking are almost opposite when it comes to our methods of writing and/or the types of stories we want to write. we both have been telling stories in this universe for close to ten years now.

Actually I am Familiar with the concept Flatland, I'm actually basing my Idea of a similar concept in "The Two-space War".

As to the Next question I have thought of what determines where/when the craft arrives in this universe and returns to ours.

Arrival in N-Space is easy (comparatively to reaching the destination), as the ship arrives just inside the expansion wave Of the N-Space universe (N-Space Stands for Null Space), Targeting the return location is much, much harder. I was thinking of modifications to the QS (Spin, distance, relative orientation, up, down) influenced the return location, the closer to the launch point the less change necessary, thus the easier it is to do, thus the Quicker. (keeping in mind there is basically a pocket of our universe around the vessel). These would have to be programmed ahead of time, since there would be little time for a Human to make these changes before the "Bounce Back" happens

Isn't that the Very definition of Science Fiction? :)
1. To me a Physical Impossibilities is intended to mean evens which, can not happen in nature, (I should have said Physical Improbabilities)
2. To me Every thing is simply a system that is part of a larger and larger systems. Quarks and Leptons make Neutrons, Protons and Electrons, Those make Atoms and so on. A disruption in one system causes a reaction, that balances the system Conceptually that's what I'm seeing happening with the "jump Drive".
3. Your Right except as a plot requirement of the drive needing to be near a large gravity well. AFAIK your right.
4. Thanks to you I have a Name for that Energy now :) at least with my current model. Any system that has laws has ways of keeping them (other wise we would have FTL by now :) E=MC² is what I was thing about. Mass can't exists in the state it is in then change the state. Agian just how I view it.

And I thank you very much for your time and Effort.

I've never been realty good at that. not making the rules no.. but Stopping making up rules once I've started ..... just ask Reaverking. ;) Also I guess I'm looking for a theory or effect I can exploit to start my "New" physics.

*sigh* your probably right. also at Reaverkings suggestion I'm looking into Quantum Teleportation as an alternative.

Also an interesting thing I found in that link although it is yet unverified by the source
Also I think we should shorten our replies, at this rate we will be taking all day to reply back appropriately (feel free to post however you like thou)

As always thanks for taking the time to read, and reply

r4z0r84

Why not use cryogenic places for the people to sleep, and the ship is controlled by AI? its not too exciting i guess but i have thought about deep space travel for many years i have come up with a few cost effective ways to make it possible, still requires a lot of time and money to make it happen. to put it basically without spilling all my ideas on the floor for anyone to take, a device external from the ship itself speeds the ship to the speed of light over the period of almost one year at a constant acceleration of 1m/s (1g) effectively gravity, Its just the calculation of getting from one point to the other without destroying yourself in the process that im struggling with haha plus the energy requirement to reach those speeds would mean half the moon would be gone due to mining H3 for a fuel source, plus the amount of electromagnets needed, plus the size of the launcher would have to go around the earth in a loop and then have a final launcher pop out to fling everything into deep space at light speed.

Current technology allows this, not so much the cryogenic freezing and reviving of humans but the launching into space at light speed, its not possible on earth due to gravity and friction, the only friction in space is time itself.

if you remove that friction by freezing/slowing down time for the people on board, technically this would give the effect of going faster then the speed of light.

r4z0r84

And on a random note, a while ago an engineer launched a website stating that we have all the technology to build the uss 1gen enterprise from star trek.

http://www.buildtheenterprise.org/

Nimbian

Cool I definitely check out the site. Also thanks for Posting

Actually the Majority of the reactors in our setting are either He3 or Proton-Anti proton reactors. and for perspective 98% of humanity uses He³ while the 2% uses the much more efficient but dangerous P-AP reactors. He³ from gas giants and other sources and AP from areas close to the suns.

To clarify some other parts of our setting and what, and why we are looking at various FTL "styles"

With-in a system space travel is what I call Medium speed, taking weeks or months to cross a system unless short cuts are used, Gravity slings, Mass Drivers, and Lagrange point wormhole jumps.

While FTL is fast Crossing to any thing in "range" instantly.

FTL Communication is done in in many ways but more or less goes with the 1600-1900 method of simply loading copies of the messages on outgoing ships, the Star ship version of "the Pony Express" also exists. Microscopic wormholes are also used, to help propagate the message but still takes time to travel in normal space (since wormholes in our setting can't form in or near gravity wells). it can take any where from hours to weeks to get a response in some cases.

Humanity discovered the jump drive by accident. and used it for close to sixty years before they were attacked by an alien race that used a completely different FTL drive, the Wormhole drive. After a few years at war Humanity had captured a few ships and had finally reversed engineered the drive. This drive (which had a much lower energy cost, was much safer, and side stepped the seeming random time delay.) became the standard drive of the Human race. While it doesn't need to be the Jumpdrive or wormhole drive, we simply came up with two drives that are as opposite as possible.

Actually some ships would likely offer this as a service, especially for people heading long distances away. (cheaper maintenance) but only the Lower classes use it (your helpless while frozen, and no matter how safe the technology would be it could be dangerous for some people), Alternatively, Frequent flyers that are Rich may also travel this way if only to slow aging.

As for AI's Human space while is united via the Alliance, is still quite fragmented Culturally, There is a general distrust of AI's but by and large each system to have laws that that either protect AI's or Banish them. AI's as passengers and as part of the crew, it all depends on the System of origin.

ReaverKing

One of the key aspects of Sci-fi is the tension between the "familliar" and the "alien". A society that uses "cold sleep" space travel runs into two very difficult problems:

1. In order to travel anywhere the characters wind up isolated in a metal box while great stretches fo time go by.

2. The interstellar economy and traffic would look nothing like travel between cities of nations on earth today.


If it takes ten years to travel between two star systems, a man of 20 will have a son close to his age or older when he gets back. Adding in the relativistic effects of near-light speed travel only makes the problem more acute. For example, if a man were chasing down a fugative between star systems, the two men would be in the middle of a gripping chase from planet to planet. To the rest of humanity, cenutries have gone by and there's no one alive to bring the fugative TO any more.

In the novel The Forever War such issues become one of the major focal points of the novel. Whereas in the Honor Harrington and Heris Serrano Fictional Universes, some form of FTL travel is necessary. For one reason (among a great many others) that it becomes much harder to have repeated battles between two characters on opposing sides without one or the other accidentally dying of old age in between battles.

[Confession] Our original vision of this universe came about from a discussion about wether energy weapons would truly be more effective than the conventional ballistic/kinetic weapons of our own era given the same length of time it would take to research man-portable energy weapons. (i.e. creating new technologies vs improving existing technologies). His infantry essentially carries a lethal flashlight, mine carry an AK-74 with new materials for the components. From there, the need to carry troops from world to world and fight in space as the argument balooned made FTL a necessity or technological advancements "in-transit" would render the whole argument moot.