Furor over Native American Fashion Costume

zoobyshoe

Any Jew, German or otherwise, trying to sell lingerie with a Star of David would be hounded by Rabbis till he stopped.

Monique

There has been no hounding yet... Star of David Underwear & Panties

micromass

OK, but we're not talking about Germans making fun of Jews. Making fun of Jews is unacceptable and racist, whether it is done by Germans or others. We're talking about selling lingerie with the cross of David. To me, that is not deliberately making fun of Jews, it's using a religious or cultural symbol for fashion. I don't consider that making fun. You might consider that making fun though, but I would disagree.

Victoria's secret used native american symbolism not to make fun of them, but because they thought it would be nice fashion. If their intent was to mock the native americans, then I would completely disagree with it, but I don't believe that was their intent.

So the question here is not: should we make fun of native Americans (the answer is of course no). But the question is: can we use religious and cultural symbols in art and fashion?? And I think we can. I see no harm in a German using Jewish symbols or an American using native American symbols.

rootX

I was responding to your quotes where you were talking about Germans like one here:
This goes back to my last post (#47) then where I said many people are just too ignorant to see the significance of religious or cultural symbols. It's the symbols that define religions or cultures. There is no separation line between religious/cultural symbols and religions/cultures.

Drakkith

I think it's about people being ignorant that those things are even symbols at all. Is that what you meant?
I doubt anyone is going to make lingerie with the star of david or jesus on a cross, as those are far more likely to be recognized as religious symbols.

Vagrant

I think you are discounting religion or culture specific connotations and sensitivities that a non-member cannot be expected to know about.

For example, using Hindu religious symbols on clothes...you put them on shirts, bags, caps etc, no one will care, but you put them on slippers or shoes or underwear and most people would find that to be in extremely bad taste and disrespectful.

A person who is ignorant about specific customs and is casually using stuff inappropriately is not making fun of the culture or religion, IMO. To them it's just another pretty picture or a cool artifact. But they should be sensitive to the fact that this might be offensive be ready to react appropriately should that be the case.

Monique

In many cultures cattle is sacred, should people stop eating beef because it's sacrilege?

Yesterday a 72-year old man was insulted, spat upon, and finally with a hard punch from behind beaten unconscious. The reason: he was eating a pork sandwich in the presence of Muslims. Should he not have eaten the sandwich, because it's a sin according to the Qur'an?

Vagrant

Did I suggest that violence is acceptable either as a form of protest or as a reaction or for anything else for that matter?

I said that people should try to react maturely if they realize that their actions could justifiably be offensive to some. I was referring to VS's apology as appropriate action in reaction to people voicing their objections.

Anyhow, my comment was specifically in context of this thread and micromass' question about using religious or cultural symbols in art and fashion. I was trying to suggest that if you do use them, you should be open to the idea that there might be weird customs attached to them. Violence was not in the picture and nor did I account for it, so I don't think that you should take my comments out of that context.

Monique

I didn't suggest it was ok to use violence, the example illustrates that eating a sandwich can raise religious insult.

Religious and cultural symbols are everywhere in art and in fashion. People have the right to express their opinion on it, but placing a taboo on it is a step too far.

Vagrant

Eating a sandwich can raise insult in only very, very specific scenarios. Context is vitally important. So is the manner in which you raise objection and react.

I think this is an example of intolerance and a criminal one at that. If, for example, the man was eating this sandwich that they objected to on the premises of their specific religious institution, they would have been justified in feeling upset or asking him to leave the premises. But I'm not even asking you for the context because IMO the second they resorted to violence, they lost any justification they might or might not have had.

rootX

I think it's just wrong to use artifacts because they're cool but then not learning about them. There shouldn't be any excuse for cultural uneducated people to inappropriately use cultural/religious symbols.

It's ridiculous that a big company like VS is ignorant of natives customs.

zoobyshoe

Excellent research, Monique! I can only say we'll see what happens. I think the "Remember the Holocaust" boxer shorts are not going to fly well in the Hassidic community.

zoobyshoe

These issues are worth discussing but I think you're wandering off topic. The woman at the link is being criticized here for speaking out because her culture is being misrepresented. The question is, are people who object to being grossly misrepresented really out of line?

I don't think so and I think everyone here would be agitated if they were misrepresented in a way they particularly disliked.

russ_watters

How is that anywhere close to what we are talking about? Jessica Simpson is not 'rabble rousing', she's wearing a string on her head.

russ_watters

Should a German hate Americans due to WWII? German style houses are popular here: is it insensitive of us to build them because of all the Germans we killed?

The circle of hate goes round and round and is very difficult to keep track of.

micromass

And I think people should act maturely if they are offended in some ways. People can get offended in a huge number of ways. Again: should we stop eating meat because it might be offensive? Should we not draw Muhammed cartoons because it might be offensive?? Or should the people who are offended grow a backbone and realize that they can't push their views on other people? I think the latter.

I don't believe we should aim to please everybody. I don't think we even can do that. All we can do is aim to be the best person we can be. And I don't think that wearing religious symbols makes me a bad person. And if somebody is offended, then they should deal with it. They should accept that I am a different person who does not think like them.

Vagrant

I believe that a mature way in which people deal with finding something offensive is to voice their objections in a rational manner. That does not equal to pushing their views on others. Whether you find merit in it, choose to engage in a discussion about it, oblige them or not is still up to you.