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Furor over Native American Fashion Costume

by Vorde
Tags: american, costume, fashion, furor, native
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Drakkith
#73
Nov15-12, 02:06 AM
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Quote Quote by rootX View Post
This goes back to my last post (#47) then where I said many people are just too ignorant to see the significance of religious or cultural symbols. It's the symbols that define religions or cultures. There is separation line between religious/cultural symbols and religions/cultures.
I think it's about people being ignorant that those things are even symbols at all. Is that what you meant?
I doubt anyone is going to make lingerie with the star of david or jesus on a cross, as those are far more likely to be recognized as religious symbols.
Vagrant
#74
Nov15-12, 02:30 AM
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Quote Quote by micromass View Post
But the question is: can we use religious and cultural symbols in art and fashion?? And I think we can. I see no harm in a German using Jewish symbols or an American using native American symbols.
I think you are discounting religion or culture specific connotations and sensitivities that a non-member cannot be expected to know about.

For example, using Hindu religious symbols on clothes...you put them on shirts, bags, caps etc, no one will care, but you put them on slippers or shoes or underwear and most people would find that to be in extremely bad taste and disrespectful.

A person who is ignorant about specific customs and is casually using stuff inappropriately is not making fun of the culture or religion, IMO. To them it's just another pretty picture or a cool artifact. But they should be sensitive to the fact that this might be offensive be ready to react appropriately should that be the case.
Monique
#75
Nov15-12, 07:06 AM
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Quote Quote by Vagrant View Post
A person who is ignorant about specific customs and is casually using stuff inappropriately is not making fun of the culture or religion, IMO. To them it's just another pretty picture or a cool artifact. But they should be sensitive to the fact that this might be offensive be ready to react appropriately should that be the case.
In many cultures cattle is sacred, should people stop eating beef because it's sacrilege?

Yesterday a 72-year old man was insulted, spat upon, and finally with a hard punch from behind beaten unconscious. The reason: he was eating a pork sandwich in the presence of Muslims. Should he not have eaten the sandwich, because it's a sin according to the Qur'an?
Vagrant
#76
Nov15-12, 09:18 AM
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Quote Quote by Monique View Post
Yesterday a 72-year old man was insulted, spat upon, and finally with a hard punch from behind beaten unconscious. The reason: he was eating a pork sandwich in the presence of Muslims. Should he not have eaten the sandwich, because it's a sin according to the Qur'an?
Did I suggest that violence is acceptable either as a form of protest or as a reaction or for anything else for that matter?

I said that people should try to react maturely if they realize that their actions could justifiably be offensive to some. I was referring to VS's apology as appropriate action in reaction to people voicing their objections.

Anyhow, my comment was specifically in context of this thread and micromass' question about using religious or cultural symbols in art and fashion. I was trying to suggest that if you do use them, you should be open to the idea that there might be weird customs attached to them. Violence was not in the picture and nor did I account for it, so I don't think that you should take my comments out of that context.
Monique
#77
Nov15-12, 09:34 AM
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I didn't suggest it was ok to use violence, the example illustrates that eating a sandwich can raise religious insult.

Religious and cultural symbols are everywhere in art and in fashion. People have the right to express their opinion on it, but placing a taboo on it is a step too far.
Vagrant
#78
Nov15-12, 10:03 AM
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Quote Quote by Monique View Post
I didn't suggest it was ok to use violence, the example illustrates that eating a sandwich can raise religious insult.
Eating a sandwich can raise insult in only very, very specific scenarios. Context is vitally important. So is the manner in which you raise objection and react.

I think this is an example of intolerance and a criminal one at that. If, for example, the man was eating this sandwich that they objected to on the premises of their specific religious institution, they would have been justified in feeling upset or asking him to leave the premises. But I'm not even asking you for the context because IMO the second they resorted to violence, they lost any justification they might or might not have had.
rootX
#79
Nov15-12, 10:37 AM
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Quote Quote by Vagrant View Post
A person who is ignorant about specific customs and is casually using stuff inappropriately is not making fun of the culture or religion, IMO. To them it's just another pretty picture or a cool artifact. But they should be sensitive to the fact that this might be offensive be ready to react appropriately should that be the case.
I think it's just wrong to use artifacts because they're cool but then not learning about them. There shouldn't be any excuse for cultural uneducated people to inappropriately use cultural/religious symbols.

It's ridiculous that a big company like VS is ignorant of natives customs.
zoobyshoe
#80
Nov15-12, 10:40 AM
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Quote Quote by Monique View Post
There has been no hounding yet... Star of David Underwear & Panties
Excellent research, Monique! I can only say we'll see what happens. I think the "Remember the Holocaust" boxer shorts are not going to fly well in the Hassidic community.
zoobyshoe
#81
Nov15-12, 10:56 AM
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Quote Quote by Monique View Post
I didn't suggest it was ok to use violence, the example illustrates that eating a sandwich can raise religious insult.

Religious and cultural symbols are everywhere in art and in fashion. People have the right to express their opinion on it, but placing a taboo on it is a step too far.
These issues are worth discussing but I think you're wandering off topic. The woman at the link is being criticized here for speaking out because her culture is being misrepresented. The question is, are people who object to being grossly misrepresented really out of line?

I don't think so and I think everyone here would be agitated if they were misrepresented in a way they particularly disliked.
russ_watters
#82
Nov15-12, 11:58 AM
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Quote Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
So, you're saying you never feel the lest bit upset when you read about how rabble rousers in the Middle East misrepresent American Culture to their followers?
How is that anywhere close to what we are talking about? Jessica Simpson is not 'rabble rousing', she's wearing a string on her head.
russ_watters
#83
Nov15-12, 12:01 PM
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Quote Quote by zoobyshoe View Post
No, I'm saying the hypothetical German manufacturer would be to blame for extreme insensitivity.
Should a German hate Americans due to WWII? German style houses are popular here: is it insensitive of us to build them because of all the Germans we killed?

The circle of hate goes round and round and is very difficult to keep track of.
micromass
#84
Nov15-12, 12:12 PM
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Quote Quote by Vagrant View Post
I said that people should try to react maturely if they realize that their actions could justifiably be offensive to some. I was referring to VS's apology as appropriate action in reaction to people voicing their objections.
And I think people should act maturely if they are offended in some ways. People can get offended in a huge number of ways. Again: should we stop eating meat because it might be offensive? Should we not draw Muhammed cartoons because it might be offensive?? Or should the people who are offended grow a backbone and realize that they can't push their views on other people? I think the latter.

I don't believe we should aim to please everybody. I don't think we even can do that. All we can do is aim to be the best person we can be. And I don't think that wearing religious symbols makes me a bad person. And if somebody is offended, then they should deal with it. They should accept that I am a different person who does not think like them.
Vagrant
#85
Nov15-12, 12:23 PM
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Quote Quote by micromass View Post
And I think people should act maturely if they are offended in some ways. People can get offended in a huge number of ways. Again: should we stop eating meat because it might be offensive? Should we not draw Muhammed cartoons because it might be offensive?? Or should the people who are offended grow a backbone and realize that they can't push their views on other people? I think the latter.

I don't believe we should aim to please everybody. I don't think we even can do that. All we can do is aim to be the best person we can be. And I don't think that wearing religious symbols makes me a bad person. And if somebody is offended, then they should deal with it. They should accept that I am a different person who does not think like them.
I believe that a mature way in which people deal with finding something offensive is to voice their objections in a rational manner. That does not equal to pushing their views on others. Whether you find merit in it, choose to engage in a discussion about it, oblige them or not is still up to you.
micromass
#86
Nov15-12, 12:30 PM
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Quote Quote by Vagrant View Post
I believe that a mature way in which people deal with finding something offensive is to voice their objections in a rational manner. That does not equal to pushing their views on others. Whether you find merit in it, choose to engage in a discussion about it, oblige them or not is still up to you.
Or they could just be silent about it and accept that people are different.

I've been a vegetarian for more than 10 years. I have never said to people that I find it offensive if other people eat meat. Do you think I should say that?? How would you react if somebody comes up to you and says you shouldn't eat meat because people find it offensive??

I, personally, find nothing more annoying than vegetarians who try to make others feel guilty and who are even offended about the pokemon video game. For me, the situation is simple: if you don't like people to eat meat in your presence, then you should choose yourself not to go in that company. Don't start complaining about people offending you.
aquitaine
#87
Nov15-12, 12:32 PM
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Quote Quote by Vagrant View Post
I believe that a mature way in which people deal with finding something offensive is to voice their objections in a rational manner. That does not equal to pushing their views on others. Whether you find merit in it, choose to engage in a discussion about it, oblige them or not is still up to you.


People don't have the right not to be offended. To say otherwise is inviting a whole mess of trouble along with some very outrageous restrictions on individual rights.
Vagrant
#88
Nov15-12, 12:49 PM
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Quote Quote by micromass View Post
Or they could just be silent about it and accept that people are different.

I've been a vegetarian for more than 10 years. I have never said to people that I find it offensive if other people eat meat. Do you think I should say that?? How would you react if somebody comes up to you and says you shouldn't eat meat because people find it offensive??
What I am talking about is that certain things are inappropriate in certain contexts. I think that it would be inappropriate and disrespectful for me to bring meat into a vegetarian's house, and that person would be justified in raising an objection.
But, if it's a place open to the general public, I would dismiss such a person as being over-sensitive.
micromass
#89
Nov15-12, 12:50 PM
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Quote Quote by Vagrant View Post
What I am talking about is that certain things are inappropriate in certain contexts. I think that it would be inappropriate and disrespectful for me to bring meat into a vegetarian's house, and that person would be justified in raising an objection.
But, if it's a place open to the general public, I would dismiss such a person as being over-sensitive.
Yes. I agree with that.
Vagrant
#90
Nov15-12, 12:53 PM
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Quote Quote by aquitaine View Post
People don't have the right not to be offended.
I'm still trying to figure this one out. Could you please say this another way?


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