Gaza War


by Greg Bernhardt
Tags: gaza
nanosiborg
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#19
Nov20-12, 06:53 AM
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Quote Quote by Greg Bernhardt View Post
Sounds like this could really be it this time. What do you think?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20351553
What do you mean by "it"?
Evo
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#20
Nov20-12, 05:25 PM
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The posted misinformation has been deleted, and accordingly all posts responding to the misinformation.
nazarbaz
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#21
Nov21-12, 02:50 AM
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I met a lot of palestinians : no beast or men could live and stand what they are experiencing... What peaceful option do they have : shut up and obey... One day or another israelis will pay for what they are doing and, I'm afraid, it won't be pretty... The humiliation palestinians feel is just immense...
The conflict raises an important moral and political issue : where must we locate the thin fronteer between terrorism and the right to fight for your life and your freedom when all political means were exhausted... Who is the terrorist in this mess and what is a "civilian" or a "military"... ? The answer is not that simple...
arildno
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#22
Nov21-12, 10:22 AM
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"I met a lot of palestinians : no beast or men could live and stand what they are experiencing"
What they are "experiencing" is better living conditions than in most non-Gulf Arab states.

Here's a few figures from Egypt:
" Maternal mortality rate:

66 deaths/100,000 live births (2010)
country comparison to the world: 92
Infant mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total: 24.23 deaths/1,000 live births
country comparison to the world: 80
male: 25.8 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 22.59 deaths/1,000 live births (2012 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total population: 72.93 years
country comparison to the world: 122
male: 70.33 years
female: 75.66 years (2012 est.)"

And here, from the Gaza Strip:
" Maternal mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
64 deaths/100,000 live births (2010)
country comparison to the world: 95
Infant mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total: 16.55 deaths/1,000 live births
country comparison to the world: 104
male: 17.65 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 15.38 deaths/1,000 live births (2012 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total population: 74.16 years
country comparison to the world: 110
male: 72.48 years
female: 75.95 years (2012 est.)"

--------------------------------

The real FALLACY is to represent Palestinians to be "suffering" at all.
nazarbaz
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#23
Nov21-12, 10:43 AM
P: 44
Quote Quote by arildno View Post
"I met a lot of palestinians : no beast or men could live and stand what they are experiencing"
What they are "experiencing" is better living conditions than in most non-Gulf Arab states.

Here's a few figures from Egypt:
" Maternal mortality rate:

66 deaths/100,000 live births (2010)
country comparison to the world: 92
Infant mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total: 24.23 deaths/1,000 live births
country comparison to the world: 80
male: 25.8 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 22.59 deaths/1,000 live births (2012 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total population: 72.93 years
country comparison to the world: 122
male: 70.33 years
female: 75.66 years (2012 est.)"

And here, from the Gaza Strip:
" Maternal mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
64 deaths/100,000 live births (2010)
country comparison to the world: 95
Infant mortality rate:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total: 16.55 deaths/1,000 live births
country comparison to the world: 104
male: 17.65 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 15.38 deaths/1,000 live births (2012 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
total population: 74.16 years
country comparison to the world: 110
male: 72.48 years
female: 75.95 years (2012 est.)"

--------------------------------

The real FALLACY is to represent Palestinians to be "suffering" at all.
Nice little Israel, so caring and human, surrounded by this ungrateful people.
Mate, you don't know what you talk about if you think that statistics give you an idea of how people live and die.
I have palestinian friends and they are very mad whatever you'll say.
You can choose to ignore their feeling, but please, for god's or devil's sake, don't claim that they have every reason to be happy but they prefer not to.
That's a symbolic killing : dispossessing someone of his own feelings.
russ_watters
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#24
Nov21-12, 11:23 AM
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Nazarbaz, the humanitarian situation in Gaza is largely the doing of the Palestinians. While Israel does not typically respond to minor attacks, no matter how frequent, they do have a vested interest in preventing an escalation and as a result, they have a vested interest in preventing weapons from getting into Gaza. Which they certainly have a right to do. Hence, the blockade. And it isn't like Israel is alone in this: Egypt takes pretty much the same position.

More generally though:

The Palestinians are in a tough spot, definitely, but it is the catch-22 of their situation and goals that puts them there. The current status quo of the decades-old "war" is Israel having pretty much everything it wants, so an end to fighting would mean Israel "wins". Not liking the status quo means the Palestinians are the ones who want to keep the war going, in the hope that someday they can turn the tide. So they'll shoot a few rockets a day or a week, forever to keep the war "officially" going.

The problem now appears to me that a rocket a day isn't enough anymore to keep the war going. It may be due to the Iron Dome system, but Israel doesn't seem to care much about the continous attacks. So for the most part, the Palestinians are fighting a war against Israel that the Israelis are ignoring. So every now and then, Hamas decides they have to escalate it to remind people there is an actual war goin on.

The catch-22 is that the continued attacks and periodic escalation make Hamas/the Palestinians look to the rest of the world like the aggressors(well that, plus the open support of terrorism, of course*), which appears to be causing their global support to diminish. It is sad to me, but it appears that instead of making an undesirable peace, they are choosing to
endure generations of suffering in a losing war.

*And Nazarbaz: you cannot make it ok to bomb a bus full of civilians by messing with the definition of the word used to describe it.
arildno
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#25
Nov21-12, 11:23 AM
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"Mate, you don't know what you talk about if you think that statistics give you an idea of how people live and die."

That is PRECISELY what statistics give you, rather than emotional outbursts.
nazarbaz
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#26
Nov21-12, 11:29 AM
P: 44
Quote Quote by arildno View Post
"Mate, you don't know what you talk about if you think that statistics give you an idea of how people live and die."

That is PRECISELY what statistics give you, rather than emotional outbursts.
Calculate human lives then and think of it as a theorem. You'll know the essence of what humanity is.
arildno
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#27
Nov21-12, 11:36 AM
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Quote Quote by nazarbaz View Post
Calculate human lives then and think of it as a theorem. You'll know the essence of what humanity is.
Factor in an evil genocidal culture lecturing day after day, in schools, mosques and newspapers about the virtue of exterminating Jews, and you'll understand why Palestinians should not be given any chance whatsoever from realizing any of their stated goals.

Their misery is strictly, and solely, their own fault.
nazarbaz
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#28
Nov21-12, 11:50 AM
P: 44
Quote Quote by russ_watters View Post
Nazarbaz, the humanitarian situation in Gaza is largely the doing of the Palestinians. While Israel does not typically respond to minor attacks, no matter how frequent, they do have a vested interest in preventing an escalation and as a result, they have a vested interest in preventing weapons from getting into Gaza. Which they certainly have a right to do. Hence, the blockade. And it isn't like Israel is alone in this: Egypt takes pretty much the same position.

More generally though:

The Palestinians are in a tough spot, definitely, but it is the catch-22 of their situation and goals that puts them there. The current status quo of the decades-old "war" is Israel having pretty much everything it wants, so an end to fighting would mean Israel "wins". Not liking the status quo means the Palestinians are the ones who want to keep the war going, in the hope that someday they can turn the tide. So they'll shoot a few rockets a day or a week, forever to keep the war "officially" going.

The problem now appears to me that a rocket a day isn't enough anymore to keep the war going. It may be due to the Iron Dome system, but Israel doesn't seem to care much about the continous attacks. So for the most part, the Palestinians are fighting a war against Israel that the Israelis are ignoring. So every now and then, Hamas decides they have to escalate it to remind people there is an actual war goin on.

The catch-22 is that the continued attacks and periodic escalation make Hamas/the Palestinians look to the rest of the world like the aggressors, which appears to be causing their global support to diminish. It is sad to me, but it appears that instead of making an undesirable peace, they are choosing to endure generations of suffering in a losing war.
The question of who began what is insoluble, Russ. I'm not going into this and I'm not talking about the recent outburst. But to say that the humantarian situation is mostly, more or less, to that extent or the other, the palestinians fault is simply not acceptable. We're talking about the oldest conflict on the planet where the two protagonists denied the other's right to exist as a nation. No one is good or evil, no one is responsible for it. The situation went wrong from the very beginning as everyone acted according it's own interests.
You can't ask palestinians to accept any peace process unleashed by the other part, it's not fair. And you can't blame them for resisting the logic of the most powerful.
nazarbaz
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#29
Nov21-12, 11:52 AM
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Quote Quote by arildno View Post
Factor in an evil genocidal culture lecturing day after day, in schools, mosques and newspapers about the virtue of exterminating Jews, and you'll understand why Palestinians should not be given any chance whatsoever from realizing any of their stated goals.

Their misery is strictly, and solely, their own fault.
I Will not answer to that. Everything is clear, I think.
arildno
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#30
Nov21-12, 11:59 AM
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1. "The question of who began what is insoluble"
No, it is perfectly soluble. It began by the evil culture fostered by men like Haj-Amin al-Husseini, orchestrating massacres on peacefully, legitimately settled Jews back in the 1920s That evil policy of terror intensified during the 1930s and 1940s.

2. " We're talking about the oldest conflict on the planet where the two protagonists denied the other's right to exist as a nation."
Incorrect. Israel has NEVER denied the other part the right to exist as a nation. That is SOLELY the position of the Palestinians and fellow Arab governments.
nazarbaz
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#31
Nov21-12, 12:05 PM
P: 44
Quote Quote by arildno View Post
1. "The question of who began what is insoluble"
No, it is perfectly soluble. It began by the evil culture fostered by men like Haj-Amin al-Husseini, orchestrating massacres on peacefully, legitimately settled Jews back in the 1920s That evil policy of terror intensified during the 1930s and 1940s.

2. " We're talking about the oldest conflict on the planet where the two protagonists denied the other's right to exist as a nation."
Incorrect. Israel has NEVER denied the other part the right to exist as a nation. That is SOLELY the position of the Palestinians and fellow Arab governments.
1. That's why your buddies are retaliating since 48 ?
2. Say that to Benny, please...
russ_watters
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#32
Nov21-12, 12:12 PM
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Quote Quote by nazarbaz View Post
The question of who began what is insoluble, Russ. I'm not going into this and I'm not talking about the recent outburst. But to say that the humantarian situation is mostly, more or less, to that extent or the other, the palestinians fault is simply not acceptable. We're talking about the oldest conflict on the planet where the two protagonists denied the other's right to exist as a nation. No one is good or evil, no one is responsible for it. The situation went wrong from the very beginning as everyone acted according it's own interests.
You can't ask palestinians to accept any peace process unleashed by the other part, it's not fair. And you can't blame them for resisting the logic of the most powerful.
Several issues here:

1. I'm not talking about who began what, nor the age of the conflict. That's pointless and rightly banned from this thread by the moderator of this forum. I'm talking about who is keeping it going. As such:
2. Currently, only one side denies the right of the other to exist.
3. Currently, only one side would accpet an immediate and unconditional end to hostility.
4. As a result, one side -- the side that is being harmed the most by the war -- can easily and immediately choose to end the fighting, immediately improving their lives. The other cannot.
russ_watters
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#33
Nov21-12, 12:14 PM
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Quote Quote by nazarbaz View Post
2. Say that to Benny, please...
Please explain and provide a source.
phinds
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#34
Nov21-12, 12:23 PM
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What I heard stated once, and it seems to me to be an interesting take on the whole situation is this

Israelis work together and have turned a desert into a garden. The Palestinians fight among themselves and with others and have turned a desert into a wasteland.
This is a bit metaphorical, but seems accurate to me.
nazarbaz
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#35
Nov21-12, 12:25 PM
P: 44
Quote Quote by russ_watters View Post
Several issues here:

1. I'm not talking about who began what, nor the age of the conflict. That's pointless and rightly banned from this thread by the moderator of this forum. I'm talking about who is keeping it going. As such:
2. Currently, only one side denies the right of the other to exist.
3. Currently, only one side would accpet an immediate end to hostility.
4. As a result, one side -- the side that is being harmed the most by the war -- can easily and immediately choose to end the fighting, immediately improving their lives. The other cannot.
I'm sorry but it's not pointless. You can't have any grasp on what is happening if you ignore the historical framework.
Are you serious about these claims ? Palestinians have to accept whatever the israelis want to offer ? You call this a fair peace process ? Palestinians tried the peaceful way and it failed... It's not reasonable to consider them guilty of the oppression they live...
Evo
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#36
Nov21-12, 12:27 PM
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And this is why this topic is banned.


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