B.S. in Physics - doomed?

rhombusjr

How can you be do "research," but not learn any useful skills?! If this is the case, I think you're doing "research" wrong…

Too busy? You can't spend 10 minutes going online and seeing who hires physics graduates and reading the job descriptions to see if your qualifications line up? You never thought "maybe I should get an internship"? Maybe your college's career services center sucks, but these seem like common things that every college student does. You can't be expected to be spoon-fed everything. You have to be a "self starter" and figure things out on your own.

Also, if your GPA is high, you have "research" experience, and did well on the GREs, you'll surely get into graduate school somewhere. Why are you complaining about not being prepared for industry if you're going into academia?

I don't know what all this crap is with "physics departments don't want to prepare students for industry and blah blah blah." I've studied numerous physics departments for graduate school, and I've picked up on some of their undergraduate school philosophy as well. I frequently see that departments want to prepare students for academia and industry.

To Physics B.S. holders looking for a job: Try looking into government/military labs. The military is always looking into cutting edge/obscure technology and they want physicists working on them. I did an internship in the DoD and I was told that I was hired because I was a physicist. They told me an engineer wouldn't have the background necessary.

Another good industry to check out is nanotechnology. Can't do nanotechnology without knowing quantum mechanics.

I think the greatest trait of a physicist, is their broad knowledge base. Sell this quality! Engineers (especially at the B.S. level) are specialized and don't know much outside their specialty. Ask a chemical engineer about circuits and they'll likely draw a blank. An electrical engineer how a refrigerator works? Probably have no idea. This broad knowledge base means that even if a physicist doesn't know something technical, they can probably figure out the basics in a much shorter time than an engineer.

Locrian

Nah, there's lots of research that's just useless. Anything that's theory and doesn't include computational work may fall into that category. My grad school roommates were great examples - non-comm geometry and string theory. They learned zero useful skills in their 7 years.

G01

Exactly, a physics degree is what you make it. If you want an industry job after your degree, focus your courses around optics, lasers and electronics (which are taught in physics departments too by the way: http://physics.bu.edu/courses/schedule/371) and perhaps a computational methods course (again physics departments offer these too: http://physics.bu.edu/courses/schedule/421)

On a graduate level, if you focus your thesis work around ultrafast spectroscopy, you will be much more employable outside academia than someone who focuses their work on string theory. The degree is what you make of it, and knowing what type of job you want after its all said and done really helps.

We all agree that the standard bare minimum physics curricula do not emphasize the important industry skills as much as they should. However, Locrian is correct when he says this is not to be blamed on the subject of physics.

Also anyone who thinks that having the word "Engineering" in your degree will result in companies throwing jobs at you is sorely mistaken. I know quite a few engineers who floundered for years trying to get a job. Believe it or not what held them back was bad interview skills, lack of internships,experience and other things that were not a core requirement of their Engineering degree.

ModusPwnd

No, I never thought that because physics undergrads dont do internships. Physics departments and professors rarely have much in terms of industry contacts. And physics programs never organize internships. They are organized by the engineering department for engineers.

BTW, if you read carefully you will see that I was too busy to get useful marketable skills rather than doing some 10 minute search... Too busy with my physics curriculum to try crashing the engineer's party and get one of their internships.

Good point. Physics is academic. One shouldn't expect it to be marketable for industry.

Now this is confusing, because you just before this acknowledged that a physics degree is academic and doesn't prepare you for industry. Now you are claiming it does? I dont think you have your thoughts straight. Physics does not prepare you for industry, it prepares you for academia. Its not crap, that the philosophy that the departments have. Unless you are doing some type of applied physics or engineering physics... Otherwise, no, the dept does not care about industry. Nor do most of the physics students, thats why they are in physics rather than engineering...

I dont believe this is true at all. This is the hubris of physics. Physicists do not have a broader knowledge base than engineers. They have a more esoteric knowledge base. A chemical engineer most certainly knows a bit about circuits and an electrical engineer most certainly knows about a refrigeration. Studying physics does not make you smarter or a faster learner than an engineer.

G01

Do you really have experience with enough physics departments to make these statements or do you think you might be overgeneralizing a bit?

This statement is patently absurd. You were so busy that you couldn't attend even one job fair, colloquium, apply for internships, or take the initiative to ask your professors for help? It is your job to network, regardless of your major.


Yes, physics is academic, but it can form a marketable degree with the right focus and initiative on the part of both the student and the program, as I've been describing above. I don't doubt that your program was lacking in this regard. Yet, your over-generalizations accusing all physics programs of having the same faults is uncalled for.

ModusPwnd

No, I dont think I'm overgeneralizing at all. I have of course interacted with many physics majors and professors in under grad and grad school. Why not offer some counterexamples instead of unsubstantiated criticism? Which physics departments do organize industry internships? I'd love to know, I have never heard of a one. Not from my peers, not from my students and not from my professors. I did work with some chemists briefly and they did internships in their program. Physics depts resist this IME.


Thats not what I said. You are twisting my words. I attended job fairs, I attended colloquium every week. Neither of those get you marketable skills. I did not apply to any internships, I was in physics so I did undergrad research. Physics departments and professors dont organize internships. I dont know what you think asking my professors for help would do? Ask them for help in what? How to get marketable? For the most part they never had a nonacademic job. My graduate adviser was a rare one that actually did have a industry job once, he left physics for chemistry. lol


I think it is called for and I dont think its an over generalization at all. You may call them faults, I think thats just the way they are. I think it might be a fault if we try to turn physics into an industry marketable degree just like engineering. Then we have two engineering degrees with different names and no academic physics degree. There is no reason to have that set up. Its good to have engineering for industry jobs and careers and physics for academic jobs and careers. Yes that means all the failed physicists will have to struggle, but that is the case for all academic degrees.

edit - Also, I dont think my undergrad program was below average at all. It was at a PAC-10 university and from my discussions with other students it was typical for the most part.

G01

I have offed several counter-examples, on multiple occasions in this very thread, within the past two pages. I've offered examples of physics majors getting industry positions with physics degree, for jobs where the employer preferred a physics degree: http://www.physicsforums.com/showpos...4&postcount=77

Along the same lines, I have multiple other friends from undergrad who got internships. One turned his undergrad optics research experience into an internship at Thor Labs, which he turned into a full time position. I also have multiple other friends who were physics majors who now work for defense contractors. They cite their undergrad research (experimental) as being useful in the job application process. I think you're underselling the relevance of the research experience physics students gain, at least on the experimental side of the aisle.

I've also given examples of physics departments offering courses that do teach "marketable" skills within their course curriculum : http://www.physicsforums.com/showpos...3&postcount=88


Which is not necessarily a useless experience to have on an industry resume, depending on the research topic. See above.

Your professors work in academia. However they have met people or gone to school with people who have left and got industry jobs. They also almost certainly have connections that a student does not. Networking is as important to a successful career as well. Even in the sciences, it can boil down to "who you know" as well as "what you know."


I do agree with you here. However, I think there is a difference between turning a physics degree into an engineering degree and offering students a curriculum that is flexible and prepares students for careers other than academic research. My program did, and we were better off for it, even those of us who decided to go the academic route.


I'm sure your experience was typical. I disagree that this is the way it should be though. There is a middle ground between completely academic, esoteric physics curricula and turning physics into an engineering degree.

Windadct

I really want to stay out of the debate here and hopefully get back to the OP, I'm an EE but wanted to relay back the many non-traditional opportunities I have seen phys grads - technical field services, financal analysist, insurance investigators, and a number of them are in the renewables market. Rarely will they say they are looking for physics but the degree shows the ability to approach things tecnically and analytically.
Also get on linked-in and network.
But aways be working and if you can do some vounteer work, it can go on the resume.

jesse73

Really, Where are you pulling this information from?

I do theoretical condensed matter and know professors including my advisor with contacts in finance/ Oil companies / national labs and NASA and other experimental professors who own companies or are founders of startups in nano tech. These contacts include former students who have went to work in these other industries.

The same I could of said of undergrad institute professors

And as a physics BS before grad school I worked or interviewed at
Music Software Start up
Foreclosure/Real Estate software company
Online Ad company
Financial software company
Defense contractors

Although some of those jobs didnt have "physics" in the job description/ad. I realized I had the skills to do them so I applied and framed my skill set to apply what the job role is.

jesse73

Its impossible to not make contacts. In any PhD granting institution professors are advising students of which about half are going into industry (AIP statistics) therefore half their students become viable industry contacts. This is assuming they arent networking other places like conferences ie the assumption of professors in a bubble composed of only themselves and their grad students.

rhombusjr

So being good at math is not marketable? Then how do math BS graduates get jobs? Why do financial companies hire math majors for internships and full-time jobs, even those with no computational or finance knowledge? I know that the NSA specifically hires mathematicians who study pure subjects such as algebra and number theory.

This is not true. I reply to this with something that I already said:
I wasn't working on something esoteric like loop quantum gravity, I was working on fielded technologies with direct impact to the US military. They wanted a physicist and not an engineer for the job. Physics majors do do internships, just maybe not the ones at your school. At my school, nearly every physics major has done some kind of internship in industry. Most of these internships were organized by the department. This is what I meant before when I said that physics departments don't only care about academia and that they are aware that some students want to enter industry. Their focus is on academia, but they don't completely throw industry out the window.

I do think that physicists have a broader knowledge base than the typical engineer (my employers at the DoD also thought so, that's why I was hired). Show me where in the standard EE curriculum students take a course in thermodynamics or rigid body mechanics. Physicists are simply exposed to more subjects than most engineers are.

It's important not to confuse "you can market a physics degree to get a technical job" with "any physicist is qualified for every single technical job out there". A physicist getting an industry job depends on both the skills of the physicist and the requirements of the job. Some jobs (like mine at the DoD) only need the broad knowledge base of a physicist, some require more specific knowledge. Physics is a very broad discipline and you can't expect to be spoon-fed everything you need for a particular industry job. Saying physics can be marketable, doesn't mean that a physics degree is ready made for industry. If you're trying to get a specific industry job, it's up to you to go beyond the bare minimum and gain that specific skill set.

If you're intentionally training to enter academia and not industry (doing research instead of internships, studying for stdzd tests instead of reading job postings, etc.) then you shouldn't be complaining you're underprepared to enter industry. If you were training to run marathons, would you complain about being a poor swimmer? It is possible to do both BTW. I did research and industry internships. It's not that hard to do; it's not an either/or situation.

My point here is to say that a physicist can get an industry job (since this is the problem faced by the OP). I will concede that if you want the most marketable degree, there are better options than physics (which is not the topic of this thread).

Off the top of my head, here are some jobs that make use of "esoteric" physics topics like quantum mechanics and relativity: medical imaging, GPS satellite design, semiconductor development/manufacturing, nanotechnology development.

Locrian

By itself? Not really. You'll want some programming, statistics, data mining, etc. experience, too. It's hard not to get some useful skills studying math, but there are areas of physics (and math!) that somehow manage it.

Devils

I'm a math major. I've worked in software development & moved to consulting.

You need to market yourself in the job market as a 'problem solver', and a very good one. People with math degrees tend to be very smart & they tend to progress fast.

And they can provide solutions to finance problems (ie business problems) in ways the accounting grads can't.

SophusLies

Being good at math alone won't really help but it won't hurt either. Something that was always stressed when I was an undergrad was gaining at least basic CS skills, which is why the first discrete math class had some programming assignments within it even though it wasn't the main focus. I do know a couple of math undergrads that got into NSA or NSA-type jobs and they were no chumps when it came to CS stuff, they knew CS (algorithms, computation theory, etc) just as well as they knew math.

I hope you aren't implying that finance, NSA, or whatever hires math majors just because they know math. Math and physics will always need some sort of platform to do their work in industry, on the theory side it's CS and on the experimental side it's engineering/lab work.

rhombusjr

You are correct. I was merely trying to indicate that being good at math is not a completely useless skill w.r.t. industry. The job applicants with a stronger CS background were probably first pick, but the ones with only string math credentials probably weren't thrown out right off the bat either.

Math is a marketable skill, but it still is only one skill. Having only one marketable skill is seldom enough to land a job (unless that job only uses that one skill). You can be a master welder, but if the job calls for someone who can also operate a lathe, someone who only knows how to weld isn't likely to get the job.

jesse73

Being a good interviewee or job searcher is about learning to market yourself so that your resume and general pitch is more than "i know math".

clope023

Having done both degrees, I can say you're wrong here.