What exactly is the reactive centrifugal force (split)by A.T. Tags: centrifugal, force, reactive, split 

#91
Feb513, 09:34 AM

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A space ship is moving on a circular path, by firing its engines continuously to provide the centripetal acceleration. The astronaut inside the ship exerts a reactive centrifugal force on the ship's wall. 



#92
Feb513, 01:56 PM

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The point remains that whenever a centripetal force has a 3rd law pair which is directed away from the center of rotation that force is called the "centrifugal reaction force". That is the definition of the term and it is a common enough term that people should know what it means. In some cases the centrifugal reaction force causes only centrifugal effects (material stresses, accelerations, etc.), but sometimes it causes centripetal effects. The naming convention refers to its direction, and not to its effects. Andrew Mason has every justification to dislike the naming convention (I dislike it for a different reason), but nevertheless it is well defined and well established. 



#93
Feb513, 02:27 PM

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"As a result of the force acting on the ball, the ball deviates from uniform motion and follows a circular path, just as the planet docs when acted upon by the sun's gravity, But by Newton's third law, if you exert a force on the ball, the ball must exert an equal and opposite force on your hand, and it does. You feel this force as the " tug" of the ball on the string you hold. It is not necessary to posit a centrifugal force. What is sometimes called a "centrifugal force" is a reflection of the force you are exerting on the ball to keep it in a circular path. Similarly, the sun will feel such a reactive, centrifugal force from each of the planets that it holds in an orbit by its force of gravity."There is absolutely no difference between this "reactive centrifugal force" ("rcf") and the "fictitous centrifugal force" ("fcf"). The rcf/fcf is the outward pull on the other end of the system (person) which is created to explain the fact that the guy is pulling the ball but the ball does not appear to be accelerating it toward him. The reaction to that fictitious force  the pull of the guy on the ball  is real. In actual fact, both bodies are accelerating about a common centre of rotation and there is no outward force. AM 



#94
Feb513, 02:34 PM

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#95
Feb513, 03:27 PM

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactiv...trifugal_force 



#96
Feb513, 06:33 PM

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In the symmetrical station with 2 identical astronauts opposite each other, the reaction force applied by the right astronaut would be equal to the mass x centripetal acceleration of the other astronaut [+ 0 (which is the total centripetal acceleration of just the space station)]. AM 



#97
Feb513, 07:20 PM

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Can you give us an example of how an the centrifugal reaction force cause anything to undergo centrifugal acceleration? I don't see that. It would be like the normal force of the earth causing a person to jump. Or the force on the seat back of a person sitting in a car that is accelerating forward causing the car or the car seat to accelerate backward. As soon as he car or car seat stops accelerating forward the reaction force ends. AM 



#98
Feb613, 01:41 AM

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 always consider the whole isolated system  always cut it in exactly two parts and you call this "arbitrary"? Sorry, but this is not what everybody wants/needs to do in an analysis. So I don't think many will want to use a naming convention based on that. A space ship is moving on a circular path, by firing its engine continuously to provide the centripetal acceleration. The burned fuel is exerting a centripetal force on the ship, which causes a centripetal acceleration of the ship. The ship is exerting a centrifugal force on the burned fuel, which causes a centrifugal acceleration of the burned fuel. 



#99
Feb613, 06:28 AM

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#100
Feb613, 06:33 AM

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#101
Feb613, 06:58 AM

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_centrifugal_force http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrif...trifugal_force http://physnet.org/modules/pdf_modules/m17.pdf http://books.google.com/books?id=QnJ...gal%22&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=4Gm...ion%22&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=eF...rce%22&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=tvk...ion%22&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=xvS...ion%22&f=false Also, in all cases the centrifugal force causes the object on which it is exerted to have less centripetal acceleration than if the centripetal force were unopposed. That in itself is a centrifugal effect although not centrifugal acceleration. Look, Andrew, this is pointless. The terminology is welldefined. You do have good reasons for not liking it, but it is common enough that people should know about it. You don't need to use it if you don't like it, but others surely will, so you should know what it is. All of your complaining about situations where it causes centripetal acceleration, while correct, doesn't make the term go away. The term is welldefined, and sufficiently common to be taken as standard terminology. 



#102
Feb613, 10:59 AM

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My point was that when analysing the physics of the rotating rigid body, we assume it is rigid and able to remain perfectly rigid as it rotates. We don't have to be concerned with the static forces within the body to analyse the physics of rotation. The only way that a planet's force on the sun could be called centrifugal is if you ignore the fact that the sun and other planets/asteroids etc are actually rotating around the centre of mass of the solar system. The pull of the earth on the sun is NOT centrifugal in an inertial frame of reference. So if it is "centrifugal" it is because it is seen as force in the direction away from the perceived centre of rotation (the centre of the sun) in the noninertial frame of reference of the sun. That is the fictitious centrifugal force. As far as the swinging ball is concerned, the authors do no talk about the force of the ball on the rope. They talk about the force of the ball on the person. For a person to be swinging a ball the person has to rotate about the common centre of mass. For a small ball it may be hard to see this. But look at how an Olympic hammer thrower has to lean backward as he swings the hammer ball. The centre of rotation is between the thrower and the ball and both rotate around it. AM 



#103
Feb613, 12:23 PM

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#104
Feb613, 03:29 PM

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#105
Feb713, 07:48 PM

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I would suggest that the reason mainstream texts do not use the term "centrifugal reaction force" to describe the reaction force to a centripetal force is because it obscures the physics. If the direction of the force is determined by the direction of the acceleration of the centre of mass of the body to which the force is applied, which I would suggest is the standard convention, all forces are all centripetal. The rocket is quite a bit more complicated. I will need some time to think about it some more. But the situation described seems incomplete  there must be other forces involved in order for the centre of mass of the rocket to rotate about the centre of the space station with the centre of mass of the space station remaining inertial. When I pull on a box on a frictionless surface with a force F, the box pulls back on me with force F. Both forces are directed toward the same inertial point  the centre of mass. I don't see any forces directed away from the centre of mass. Total forces add to 0. I give myself and the box, respectively, equal and opposite changes in momentum. Both changes in momentum are toward the centre of mass. Now, if I make the box more massive by ΔM, and apply the same force to the box as before (F), the box accelerates toward the centre of mass (which is now a different point) but with less acceleration (a' = F/(M+ΔM). I accelerate toward the centre of mass at the same rate as before (a=F/m). But the changes in momentum are the same for the box and me. So what seems like an effect directed away from the centre of mass if you only look only at the reduced acceleration of the large box, is not a reduction in the change of momentum of the box. There is no "effect" that is in a direction away from the centre of mass. If you apply that to centripetal forces due to rotation, in the first case the less massive box and I rotate on the frictionless surface with acceleration toward the centre of mass: [itex]F_{cbox} = m_{box}r_{box}ω^2[/itex] and [itex]F_{cme} = m_{me}r_{me}ω^2[/itex] With the more massive box but with the same pulling force between me and the box, the box and I will rotate about a centre of mass of the system that is closer to the centre of mass of the box by Δr. The box will have less centripetal acceleration and I will have greater centripetal acceleration toward the centre of mass of the system (longer radius).[itex]F_{cbox} = m_{box}(r_{box}\Delta r)ω^2[/itex] and [itex]F_{cme} = m_{me}(r_{me}+\Delta r)ω^2[/itex]. If the centripetal forces do not change (i.e. my pull force on the box does not change), ω will have to be less so that my acceleration remains the same. Again, there is no centrifugal effect at all. AM 



#106
Feb713, 09:01 PM

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Andrew, this continued discussion is pointless. The terminology exists, is well defined, and commonly accepted. You are absolutely correct that the centrifugal reaction force can cause centripetal acceleration in some circumstances, but that doesn't change a thing. 



#107
Feb713, 11:02 PM

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"I specified that the bolts were "suddenly" cut for a very important reason. As the astronaut is standing on the floor the floor is under stress with centripetal forces from the bolts and a centrifugal reaction force from the astronaut. The centripetal force is greater than the centrifugal reaction force so there is a net acceleration towards the center.Let's deal with the first paragraph: "I specified that the bolts were "suddenly" cut for a very important reason. As the astronaut is standing on the floor the floor is under stress with centripetal forces from the bolts and a centrifugal reaction force from the astronaut. The centripetal force is greater than the centrifugal reaction force so there is a net acceleration towards the center."This makes no sense to me. How can the centripetal force (presumably by the force exerted by the floor on the astronaut) be greater than the "centrifugal reaction force" (the force exerted by the astronaut on the floor, I assume) if they are equal and opposite 3rd law pairs? There is something wrong here because the centripetal force is not opposed by any force. The centripetal force, by definition, is ma_{c} = ω^{2}r. What force is opposing it? Now your second paragraph: "When the bolts are suddenly cut the stress is relieved from the outside of the section of floor, but the inner part of the floor (where the astronaut is standing) is still under stress. This sets up a shear wave where the floor material transitions from stress to stressfree. During the time between when the bolts are suddenly cut and when that shear wave reaches the feet of the astronaut the centrifugal reaction force still exists, the feet and floor are still in contact, and the floor is accelerating in a direction away from the center. It may help to think of the floor as being made of a stretchy rubber material.You appear to be saying that the relaxation of the stress forces within the floor will cause the floor to expand against the astronaut (and, presumably the relaxation of similar tensions in the astronaut will cause the astronaut to expand against the floor section that has been liberated from the space station). But once the bolts are cut the centre of mass of the astronaut and floor section (taken together so long as they are exerting forces on each other) defines an inertial reference frame  no external forces are acting on them. So there is no acceleration of the centre of mass of the floor/astronaut. The astronaut and floor section will briefly (very briefly) push off against each other as the tensions are relaxed, but that is not a reaction to the centripetal force which is zero at that moment. Finally, the third paragraph: "The centrifugal force is every bit as "centrifugal" as the centripetal force is "centripetal". The centrifugal force points away from the center, the centripetal points towards the center. If either is unbalanced then it will result in acceleration in the corresponding direction. If there are other forces involved then the actual acceleration depends on the net force, per Newton's 2nd law."Again, the centripetal force is always unbalanced because it is defined as centripetal acceleration x mass. There is never centrifugal acceleration (unless you are in an accelerating frame of reference) even if one were to accept the idea of calling the reaction force to the force causing centripetal acceleration "centrifugal". AM 



#108
Feb813, 03:00 AM

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A space ship is moving on a circular path as seen from an inertial frame, by firing its engine to provide the centripetal acceleration. The burned fuel is exerting a centripetal force on the ship, which causes a centripetal acceleration of the ship. The ship is exerting a centrifugal force on the burned fuel, which causes a centrifugal acceleration of the burned fuel. 


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