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Tired of having your Ideals Challenged?

by Tenshou
Tags: challenged, ideals, tired
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Kholdstare
#19
Feb8-13, 08:22 AM
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Astronuc
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Feb8-13, 09:10 AM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
It's stupid to always challenge authority. Only challenge if you have good reason. There is a difference in questioning bad information and blindly questioning authority. I'm surprised that you would say such a thing Astronuc. Do you actually believe what you posted? Should members always question our rules without a reason?

Perhaps it is wiser to say "don't fear questioning authority"?
By challenge, I mean question.

With respect to challenge, I don't imply being aggressive or provocative, nor did I mention 'blindly questioning'. Certainly one should have a good reason, such as the authority is wrong or acting in an arbitary or capricious manner, to challenge/question authority.

Of course, one should be judicious in one's actions.
Andre
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Feb8-13, 01:00 PM
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For what it's worth, not -or rather insufficient- challenging authority has contributed to the largest air mishap of all times.

Not all is on internet but here is the most essential:

KLM 4805 reported ready for take-off and was given instructions for a Papa beacon departure. The KLM crew repeated the instructions and added "We are now at take-off". The brakes were released and KLM 4805 started the take-off roll.
Tenerife tower, knowing that Pan Am 1736 was still taxiing down the runway replied "OK ...... Stand by for take-off, I will call you." This message coincided with the PanAm crew's transmission "No ... uh we're still taxiing down the runway, the Clipper 1736". These communications caused a shrill noise in the KLM cockpit, lasting approx. 3.74 seconds.

Tenerife tower replied: "Papa Alpha 1736 report runway clear.", whereupon the PanAm crew replied: "OK, will report when we're clear". This caused some concerns with the KLM flight engineer asking the captain: "Is he not clear then?" After repeating his question the captain answers emphatically: "Oh, yes".
There are hours of discussions with apparant reasons why the the captain thought why he was cleared for take off, but the flight engineer should have challenged authority: "No sir, abort, abort, abort, we're not cleared for take off". That might have saved his life and that of 582 others.

As a result, in many flying organisations, even the youngest crew/flight member is obliged to challenge authority and will not be sanctioned if his/her concerns were wrong in hindsight.

Edit:

It should also be noted that the captain was the #1 rated air line pilot of that time.
Evo
#22
Feb8-13, 06:12 PM
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And how many disasters/deaths have resulted from people not following instructions?

I was watching a show about Pastuer developing the rabies vaccine. He was challenged by his assistant to the point of his assistant quitting, but luckily Pastuer was confident that he was right and went ahead with the treatment anyway and he was right. This saved hundreds of lives the first year and paved the way to the many life saving vaccines we have today.
Gral
#23
Feb8-13, 06:30 PM
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Never my ideals need challenging, wisdom thrives on discord. Although I will say this the next person who challenges my parking space while I am manoevering in will die.
Woopydalan
#24
Feb8-13, 08:38 PM
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rebel without a cause
G01
#25
Feb8-13, 09:07 PM
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To the OP: Have you actually listened to your friends and let them have their say? Perhaps the OP should spend some time listening, figure out why their friends respect said authority, and then evaluate a response. People will not listen to you if you don't listen to them.
Drakkith
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Feb8-13, 09:27 PM
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I have been an NCO in the U.S. Air Force for 6 years now. In that time I can say that I have had to lead people of all types of personalities, races, and backgrounds. I cannot claim that I have done an excellent job, nor even a good job. Only that I did the best I could with the knowledge and skills I had at the time.

I will tell you this. Everything changes when you end up on the "Side of Authority".

Practically no one in a position of authority is going to get on your case just because they are the authority. No, the situation is far more complicated. MOST of the time I have someone who just likes to "stand up to authority" they are utterly, truly, and completely idiotic. They are USUALLY, but not always, young men behaving like young men without a lick of life experience. (Or young women) They don't understand WHY rules are in place. They don't want to accept the fact that they have to do something they don't want to. I'm sorry but 99.9% of the time a person "stands up to authority" they simply has no idea that their actions have repercussions that go beyond themselves. OR they don't care. Or both even. Perhaps a bigger issue is they may not understand why they should care in the first place.

But it's not only that. I think a good deal of it is the attention they get from others by being "the rebel" if you will. They may not even realize they are doing it for the attention, especially if they have grown up like this. It has become second nature to them. They quite literally, don't know how else to behave. And they don't know that they don't know how to behave otherwise. One of the absolute hardest things for a person to do is to even consider that they may be wrong, that they may not know what they are talking about.

To the OP, you asked if it's wrong to challenge authority? There is no answer to this question, there are only opinions. All I can tell you is that EVERYTHING has a reason, and it's never "just because", no matter how often you get told that. That answer is given because the person can't explain why, doesn't know why, doesn't have the time to explain...the list goes on and on.

If you truly want to know I suggest you put yourself in a position of leadership or authority and then deal with someone like yourself. You will QUICKLY find out why it's frowned upon.
phion
#27
Feb8-13, 09:29 PM
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Quote Quote by Tenshou View Post
Is it wrong to challenge them?
You need to earn your stay, regardless of what you think you know or what you have been through. Once you've either (1) earned the respect of authority or (2) become an authority yourself, you will always encounter challenges, and even then there will be challenges but probably of the self-induced sort.

Challenging authority is only healthy, but when it gets in the way of being rational or wise or becomes some type of self-fulfilling prophecy, that's when the distinction should become apparent.

It has a lot to do with maturity too. For instance, I used to hate being corrected or having my core beliefs challenged or whatever else; however, now, I welcome it with open arms because my own thinking simply stopped getting me anywhere, at least nowhere I really wanted to be.
Andre
#28
Feb9-13, 02:36 AM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
And how many disasters/deaths have resulted from people not following instructions?
That doesn't seem to be the issue here.

Maybe for a contrast have a look at the principle of Crew Resource Management, as a lesson learned of the Tenerife disaster:

CRM aims to foster a climate or culture where the freedom to respectfully question authority is encouraged.
.

If one thinks that 'the boss is the boss' please do read this paragraph.
Buckleymanor
#29
Feb9-13, 11:39 AM
P: 488
I was watching a show about Pastuer developing the rabies vaccine. He was challenged by his assistant to the point of his assistant quitting, but luckily Pastuer was confident that he was right and went ahead with the treatment anyway and he was right. This saved hundreds of lives the first year and paved the way to the many life saving vaccines we have today.
I once watched a show about a nation lead by a man who marched into Poland who also set up death camps and tried to wipe out a whole race.The nation he ruled over were in denial of the concentration camps and they never were never able to challenge his authority with success.Pity!
Tenshou
#30
Feb9-13, 12:01 PM
P: 150
Quote Quote by G01 View Post
To the OP: Have you actually listened to your friends and let them have their say? Perhaps the OP should spend some time listening, figure out why their friends respect said authority, and then evaluate a response. People will not listen to you if you don't listen to them.
I agree with you, but when I do listen and point out to them the flaw in their logic they get upset, and "disown" (If that is an okay word to use) me. Sometimes, listening means following. ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
I have been an NCO in the U.S. Air Force for 6 years now. In that time I can say that I have had to lead people of all types of personalities, races, and backgrounds. I cannot claim that I have done an excellent job, nor even a good job. Only that I did the best I could with the knowledge and skills I had at the time.

I will tell you this. Everything changes when you end up on the "Side of Authority".

Practically no one in a position of authority is going to get on your case just because they are the authority. No, the situation is far more complicated. MOST of the time I have someone who just likes to "stand up to authority" they are utterly, truly, and completely idiotic. They are USUALLY, but not always, young men behaving like young men without a lick of life experience. (Or young women) They don't understand WHY rules are in place. They don't want to accept the fact that they have to do something they don't want to. I'm sorry but 99.9% of the time a person "stands up to authority" they simply has no idea that their actions have repercussions that go beyond themselves. OR they don't care. Or both even. Perhaps a bigger issue is they may not understand why they should care in the first place.

But it's not only that. I think a good deal of it is the attention they get from others by being "the rebel" if you will. They may not even realize they are doing it for the attention, especially if they have grown up like this. It has become second nature to them. They quite literally, don't know how else to behave. And they don't know that they don't know how to behave otherwise. One of the absolute hardest things for a person to do is to even consider that they may be wrong, that they may not know what they are talking about.

To the OP, you asked if it's wrong to challenge authority? There is no answer to this question, there are only opinions. All I can tell you is that EVERYTHING has a reason, and it's never "just because", no matter how often you get told that. That answer is given because the person can't explain why, doesn't know why, doesn't have the time to explain...the list goes on and on.

If you truly want to know I suggest you put yourself in a position of leadership or authority and then deal with someone like yourself. You will QUICKLY find out why it's frowned upon.
Yeah, I understand some people just do it for the attention, but if you constantly seek better ways in understanding something, why do it for the attention, even if the person doesn't understand the repercussion doesn't mean the consequence will be bad, does it? There is always time to explain, if not "now" then make it, if you don't know why not seek?!? Agree? I have been in a role of leadership, things went fine, except the fact they didn't like me. You cannot change a persons feeling even if you try they still reject you. I don't command people. If they don't want to do something, then I will do it my self, "if you need a job done right, do it your self." they don't count as a member of a cohesive team to serve a common,a corporation.

Quote Quote by phion View Post
You need to earn your stay, regardless of what you think you know or what you have been through. Once you've either (1) earned the respect of authority or (2) become an authority yourself, you will always encounter challenges, and even then there will be challenges but probably of the self-induced sort.

Challenging authority is only healthy, but when it gets in the way of being rational or wise or becomes some type of self-fulfilling prophecy, that's when the distinction should become apparent.

It has a lot to do with maturity too. For instance, I used to hate being corrected or having my core beliefs challenged or whatever else; however, now, I welcome it with open arms because my own thinking simply stopped getting me anywhere, at least nowhere I really wanted to be.
I agree you have to earn that respect. Don't get me wrong, most authoritative figures do enjoy having idea challenged and like being changed, because this is a part of growing up, becoming wiser when you question an established belief system, or the "powers that be", you know what I mean?

Quote Quote by Ryan_m_b View Post
I disagree with this as a definition for authority, it's much broader. Authority is the right/privilege to decide on an issue or perform an action e.g. speaking on an issue. There are many types of authority, a doctor for example is an authority on medical matters.

Of course one should challenge authority where there is reasonable grounds too and it is safe to do so. By all means question if someone deserves to have authority on a matter if you have a reasonable criticism (e.g. A politicians argument is logically flawed, a doctors statement contradicts medical concensus, the rational behind the authority status is unjustified etc) and it is a wise opportunity to challenge.
I understand what you mean and the same with Evo that you should not question blindly, I mean with out a good cause, yet isn't the politician's argument logically flawed? Isn't the doctors contradictory statement always going to go against what is the ethics at the time? So I take back what I said about what an authority figure is, you are right. An authority figure is much broader than my definition, thank you Ryan_m_b

Quote Quote by Evo View Post
It's stupid to always challenge authority. Only challenge if you have good reason. There is a difference in questioning bad information and blindly questioning authority. I'm surprised that you would say such a thing Astronuc. Do you actually believe what you posted? Should members always question our rules without a reason?

Perhaps it is wiser to say "don't fear questioning authority"?
you are right, but would you not be afraid if you questioned unreasonable actions that the authority has made? For example, take Nazi Germany and the unreasonable killings of millions of people, some people thought it was the right thing to do, not question the person in the leadership role ( possibly fearing for their lives, or because you aren't suppose to do that, a cultural thing.), Do you know what is good and bad outside the context of a social/cultural situation? (I thought I put this post in the humanities, whatever?)

Quote Quote by pongo38 View Post
There is no power over you that you do not accept.
you are exactly right pongo! This is hard to do stay out of a place in which you wish someone not to exert influence over you, and yet the same is true the other way.
Drakkith
#31
Feb9-13, 12:31 PM
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Quote Quote by Tenshou View Post
Yeah, I understand some people just do it for the attention, but if you constantly seek better ways in understanding something, why do it for the attention, even if the person doesn't understand the repercussion doesn't mean the consequence will be bad, does it?
Let's be clear. If you are trying to understand something, you shouldn't have to "challenge authority" in the first place. If you do, then perhaps you aren't challenging authority so much as asking badly worded questions, asking questions at the wrong time, or getting into a misunderstanding over what you are asking and why.

There is always time to explain, if not "now" then make it, if you don't know why not seek?!? Agree?
I partially agree. There are many times you can stop and explain something or go find the answers. However there are many times you cannot. Plus many people don't know how to make time or explain the correct answers sometimes. Never discount the fact that most people are not what you would call a "good leader". This is why a good leader is so well liked and so rare. It takes a phenomenal amount of effort and understanding, and in many cases it requires a certain personality style or way of thinking which runs counter to practically everyone's normal way of thinking. Just realizing that the people under you are worthy of your attention and respect is an unbelievable difficult thing for most people to truly understand and accept. Why? Because the vast majority of people don't understand that everyone around them is worthy of their respect and attention most of the time. At least that's my belief.

And be aware that I have absolutely no idea what you mean when you say "challenge authority", so I can only go off what I've had to deal with in the past and what I think of when I hear the phrase. Without specific examples we may get into a disagreement over nothing.


I have been in a role of leadership, things went fine, except the fact they didn't like me. You cannot change a persons feeling even if you try they still reject you. I don't command people. If they don't want to do something, then I will do it my self, "if you need a job done right, do it your self." they don't count as a member of a cohesive team to serve a common,a corporation.
There are many different styles of leadership, not just "commanding". I don't know the specifics of your situation, but it sounds like you: A. Didn't know what you were doing, B. used the wrong style of leadership, and C. didn't know how to overcome A and B. Note that I mean no disrespect here. I'm not trying to rile you up or anything.

Let me ask you this. Did anyone "challenge your authority"? If so, did you like it? How did you react? Did you stop and consider their point of view?


you are exactly right pongo! This is hard to do stay out of a place in which you wish someone not to exert influence over you, and yet the same is true the other way.
Not to mention the fact that society itself is made up of a bunch of people trying to influence everyone else around them. This includes you and I. After all, why would I be posting in this thread if I didn't care about influencing you? Why do people get in arguments over the craziest things?
Tenshou
#32
Feb9-13, 01:58 PM
P: 150
Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
Let's be clear. If you are trying to understand something, you shouldn't have to "challenge authority" in the first place. If you do, then perhaps you aren't challenging authority so much as asking badly worded questions, asking questions at the wrong time, or getting into a misunderstanding over what you are asking and why.
It is rare to learn something new at the wrong time, no? What I mean by questioning or challenging authority, is the freedom for the person in charge to give a concrete example with no logical flaws when they keep coming back to the same logical flaws, this is not a situation in which you wish to get your self in, I believe this is why they say choose your battles wisely.

Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
I partially agree. There are many times you can stop and explain something or go find the answers. However there are many times you cannot. Plus many people don't know how to make time or explain the correct answers sometimes. Never discount the fact that most people are not what you would call a "good leader". This is why a good leader is so well liked and so rare. It takes a phenomenal amount of effort and understanding, and in many cases it requires a certain personality style or way of thinking which runs counter to practically everyone's normal way of thinking. Just realizing that the people under you are worthy of your attention and respect is an unbelievable difficult thing for most people to truly understand and accept. Why? Because the vast majority of people don't understand that everyone around them is worthy of their respect and attention most of the time. At least that's my belief.
I do agree with this my friend, some people just don't care, but is it really because they cannot make time or is it, simply because they don't like their ideals and established thought to be changed, this pantological, omniscient "I am right, there is only one way to do things and that is with no questions" locked in way of going about things causes ruin and loss of diversity for the corporation, a team to serve a common goal. So, in this respect I do believe that Great Leaders are hard to come by have you ever seen the movie the Greatest Dictator (I believe it is called) it is made by Charlie Chaplin, I love the movie because it says "Stand up, There is a reason for diversity, a reason to question and seek answers because as one person we do not know them all, yet all of us can find them out together!"

Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
There are many different styles of leadership, not just "commanding". I don't know the specifics of your situation, but it sounds like you: A. Didn't know what you were doing, B. used the wrong style of leadership, and C. didn't know how to overcome A and B. Note that I mean no disrespect here. I'm not trying to rile you up or anything.

Let me ask you this. Did anyone "challenge your authority"? If so, did you like it? How did you react? Did you stop and consider their point of view?

After all, why would I be posting in this thread if I didn't care about influencing you? Why do people get in arguments over the craziest things?
Can you give me a few examples of leadership? All the forms I have encountered are of the form of commanding, uh did you not say you were, or have served a military branch? Isn't a Commander a title given to a person in a leadership role? I understand that you aren't trying to disrespect me just influence, if I didn't want to be influenced I wouldn't have made this thread. I find it interesting on what people think don't you. I don't think they challenged my authority, just disliked me for the position I was put in, or seemed like they had to do extra things for them to get to like me. I don't think I have ever been questioned for the role I was put in. If I were in the position of being challenged I would react like a civilized human being, understand where they are coming from and ask them what I was doing different from what they were, and when I stopped to point out what they were doing that I wasn't doing, I hope for them to act civilized in other words...
Drakkith
#33
Feb9-13, 03:26 PM
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Quote Quote by Tenshou View Post
It is rare to learn something new at the wrong time, no? What I mean by questioning or challenging authority, is the freedom for the person in charge to give a concrete example with no logical flaws when they keep coming back to the same logical flaws, this is not a situation in which you wish to get your self in, I believe this is why they say choose your battles wisely.
In such a situation you would be very much better off either taking a different approach, or simply not pushing the question once you realize they can't give you the answer you seek. This to me is not "challenging authority" so much as it is arguing with someone. They may happen to be in a position of authority, but that fact in itself doesn't mean you are challenging them. In my opinion at least.

Of course the old rule of "It's not what you say it's HOW you say it" still applies. You may be asking valid questions, but how you say it or when you ask may be considered as rude and inappropriate.


I do agree with this my friend, some people just don't care, but is it really because they cannot make time or is it, simply because they don't like their ideals and established thought to be changed, this pantological, omniscient "I am right, there is only one way to do things and that is with no questions" locked in way of going about things causes ruin and loss of diversity for the corporation, a team to serve a common goal.
It is my belief that a person gets to the point of "i am right, there is only one way to do thing, no questions." BECAUSE they don't care, don't understand how to lead, or one of a thousand other reasons.

Can you give me a few examples of leadership? All the forms I have encountered are of the form of commanding, uh did you not say you were, or have served a military branch? Isn't a Commander a title given to a person in a leadership role? I understand that you aren't trying to disrespect me just influence, if I didn't want to be influenced I wouldn't have made this thread. I find it interesting on what people think don't you. I don't think they challenged my authority, just disliked me for the position I was put in, or seemed like they had to do extra things for them to get to like me. I don't think I have ever been questioned for the role I was put in. If I were in the position of being challenged I would react like a civilized human being, understand where they are coming from and ask them what I was doing different from what they were, and when I stopped to point out what they were doing that I wasn't doing, I hope for them to act civilized in other words...
The topic is far too diverse for me to even make a dent in. Instead I will provide a few links on leadership and you can read yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadership
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_L...adership_model
http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/leader/leader.html
http://www.greatleadershipbydan.com/...ip-models.html
Buckleymanor
#34
Feb9-13, 06:04 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
It's stupid to always challenge authority. Only challenge if you have good reason. There is a difference in questioning bad information and blindly questioning authority. I'm surprised that you would say such a thing Astronuc. Do you actually believe what you posted? Should members always question our rules without a reason?

Perhaps it is wiser to say "don't fear questioning authority"?
Evo you are completly wrong!
It's never stupid to challenge authority.The only good reason is that authority is usually wrong.Science only moves foreward by challegeing and attitudes towards not questioning authority on any levell is ludite to say the least.
micromass
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Feb9-13, 06:12 PM
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Quote Quote by Buckleymanor View Post
Evo you are completly wrong!
It's never stupid to challenge authority.The only good reason is that authority is usually wrong.Science only moves foreward by challegeing and attitudes towards not questioning authority on any levell is ludite to say the least.
You seem to be unable to see a difference between "challenging authority" and "questioning authority".

For examples, when you are in scientific circles, there will always be authorities who know more than you and who have more experience than you. Do you always challenge them? Say that they are wrong? No, you listen to what they have to say and accept it. Of course, you should also think critically and judge whether their words were correct or not. Only if they were wrong, then you challenge them.

If you always go around challenging authority, then you are never able to learn. If you never question authority, then you can never learn either.

And authorities are usually wrong? Please. So that means that you consider most prominent math and physics textbooks to be usually wrong? Your parents are usually wrong? All of these are authorities.
Drakkith
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Feb9-13, 06:15 PM
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Like most topics, I feel each of us has a different view of what "Challenging Authority" and "Questioning Authority" means, and we are probably misunderstanding each other greatly.


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