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Tired of having your Ideals Challenged?

by Tenshou
Tags: challenged, ideals, tired
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Buckleymanor
#37
Feb9-13, 06:26 PM
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If you always go around challenging authority, then you are never unable to learn. If you never question authority, then you can never learn either.

If I was to challenge authority I would use the word able.
micromass
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Feb9-13, 06:29 PM
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Quote Quote by Buckleymanor View Post
If I was to challenge authority I would use the word able.
Thanks! Corrected
DiracPool
#39
Feb9-13, 06:42 PM
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Quote Quote by Buckleymanor View Post
It's never stupid to challenge authority.
Unless its a cop and you're drunk or the papal inquisition...
Buckleymanor
#40
Feb9-13, 06:43 PM
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Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
Like most topics, I feel each of us has a different view of what "Challenging Authority" and "Questioning Authority" means, and we are probably misunderstanding each other greatly.
We have to be very carefull and respectfull to get the best results from people.
Misunderstandings and misinformortion cause much harm.
The problem is challenging and questioning authority both overlap.It's sometimes hard to ask a question without being challenging.
TurtleMeister
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Feb9-13, 06:48 PM
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Andre's example of the Tenerife airport disaster reminds me of another air crash involving a challenge to authority (or lack of challenge). In the crash of Air Florida flight 90, the captain dismissed the copilots concern that an instrument panel indication was wrong, prompting the copilot (who was at the controls) to doubt his own judgement and continue with the takeoff roll.

Copilot: "God, look at that thing. That don't seem right, does it? Uh, that's not right."
Pilot: "Yes it is, there's eighty."
Copilot: "Naw, I don't think that's right. Ah, maybe it is."

Although the above transcripts seem to indicate an instrument failure as the cause of the crash, it was actually pilot error. They failed to switch on the ice protection systems prior to takeoff. However, had the copilot challenged the captains authority and aborted the take off (which he had time to do), the accident could have been avoided.
Evo
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Feb9-13, 07:10 PM
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Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
Like most topics, I feel each of us has a different view of what "Challenging Authority" and "Questioning Authority" means, and we are probably misunderstanding each other greatly.
Yes, if we go by dictionary definitions, the verb "question" would mean to ask, usually for clarification. The verb "challenge" would mean to dispute the truth or validity of something.

As I said previoulsy, IMO, it's ok to question authority, for example if you don't understand or think there is a problem. Then, if you still think there is a problem after you've been given an explanation, you may feel you have enough information against that answer to then challenge the information. I think micromass summed it up well enough that I don't need to repeat what he said.

To members, lets not go off topic with specific examples of issues where there was confusion over something that was happening, that's not what the OP is referring to. We could go all over the place filling this thread with examples for and against decisions and outcomes.
jim hardy
#43
Feb9-13, 07:15 PM
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Quote Quote by Tenshou View Post
Is this like some type of Luciferian disorder to dissent against authoritative and controlling beings?
Who knows? It's a matter of degree. How easily are you set off? How hard do you push? Do you feel a "need to win" ? Do others tell you to 'lighten up' ?
Only you know those things. We can't diagnose here, and i'm not qualified even if it were permissible.


It is with some trepidation i post this quote, taken from this link:

http://www.billcphd.com/quotes.php?quote_id=228

Reason i am uneasy is it sounds new-age
but i kept a copy of Eric Hoffer's "Passionate State of Mind" in my top desk drawer for twenty years. He's not 'new-age'.
It helped me through many difficult "office politics" situations.
This short essay is based on two quotes from that little book of aphorisms.
So here goes:

Rudeness

"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."


~ Eric Hoffer

These days, when so much attention is being paid to bullying in school, as well as, dealing with difficult people in the workplace and at home, I suggest we take this opportunity to reexamine the concept of rudeness by way of a quote by philosopher Eric Hoffer. What I love about this quote (although I would change it to read, "the weak person's imitation of strength" because we know that rudeness isn't limited to a specific gender) is that it allows us to see beneath the bluff and bluster of rudeness to what is really driving this sort of behavior, weakness and fear. And at the same time, it allows us to examine its opposite, strength and confidence.

In fact, I believe that this labeling of rudeness as "the weak man's imitation of strength" is one of the best ways to look at, and then deal with this type of behavior. For example, if we were to examine how most people react to rudeness, we would very likely see some version of a fight or flight reaction. People tend to either feel threatened and pull back, or "fight fire with fire" and become rude themselves. Unfortunately, neither of these reactions is particularly effective. When we pull back, the rude person feels more powerful while we feel powerless. In a sense, they are rewarded for their rude behavior because it has had the desired effect. On the other hand, reacting by becoming rude ourselves rarely works because they then see us as the difficult person and begin to defend the very behavior we want them to change.

Of course, for those of you who are familiar with my "Top of the Mind" philosophy, you know that any fight or flight behavior comes from the lower 20% of the brain and is almost always reactive in nature. This is certainly the case with rudeness. People who are rude to others often fear rejection or at the very least expect that others won't like them and/or won't see what they have to say as valuable. Therefore, when we can see the person who is being rude as "frightened" versus "mean, obnoxious," and/or "a bully," we minimize the negative effect they have in our lives. Plus, we access the clear, confident, and compassionate part of who we are (which means we are accessing the upper 80% of our brain).

There is a quote I use in almost all of my seminars that says: "Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die" (by Malachy McCourt). Most people would agree that resentment is a very common reaction to people who are being rude, and yet, I am confident that most people would also agree that this reaction rarely results in any sort of satisfactory outcome. In fact, what often happens is that we continue to run the problematic interaction over and over in our minds and thus continue to "poison" our system with stress-related hormones. The quote that follows this "resentment/poison" perspective very nicely is "Compassion is the antitoxin of the soul. Where there is compassion, even the most poisonous impulses become relatively harmless." (also by Eric Hoffer). Therefore, if resentment is the poison, compassion is the anti-toxin and thus can allow us to detoxify any reaction we have to anyone who is being rude.

In order to have this sort of power, however, we must be able to access the clear, confident, creative part of our brain and change our interpretation of other's rude behavior from problematic, annoying, and intimidating to weak and frightened. This shift in perspective then allows us to access the sort of compassion that will give us the strength to continue on free from the effect of fear and anxiety.

In fact, given all this information, we could change the quote to "Rudeness is the frightened person's reaction to their fear of rejection." Not only does this come closer to the truth, it keeps us from responding to rudeness with a pejorative judgement of our own. Instead, we can access our compassion which we now know is an antidote or "anti-toxin of the soul" and move into life free of the poison of resentment.

Take care and God bless, Dr. Bill
Here's another to ponder:
However much we guard ourselves against it, we tend to shape ourselves in the image others have of us. It is not so much the example of others we imitate, as the reflection of ourselves in their eyes and the echo of ourselves in their words.
you might ask your 'authorities' how it is they perceive you.


old jim
AlephZero
#44
Feb9-13, 07:17 PM
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Quote Quote by TurtleMeister View Post
Copilot: "God, look at that thing. That don't seem right, does it? Uh, that's not right."
Pilot: "Yes it is, there's eighty."
Copilot: "Naw, I don't think that's right. Ah, maybe it is."
Yup, the old airline pilots' joke still hasn't completely gone away.

Q: What's the difference between a copilot and a duck?
A: Ducks can fly.
micromass
#45
Feb9-13, 07:40 PM
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Quote Quote by TurtleMeister View Post
Andre's example of the Tenerife airport disaster reminds me of another air crash involving a challenge to authority (or lack of challenge). In the crash of Air Florida flight 90, the captain dismissed the copilots concern that an instrument panel indication was wrong, prompting the copilot (who was at the controls) to doubt his own judgement and continue with the takeoff roll.

Copilot: "God, look at that thing. That don't seem right, does it? Uh, that's not right."
Pilot: "Yes it is, there's eighty."
Copilot: "Naw, I don't think that's right. Ah, maybe it is."

Although the above transcripts seem to indicate an instrument failure as the cause of the crash, it was actually pilot error. They failed to switch on the ice protection systems prior to takeoff. However, had the copilot challenged the captains authority and aborted the take off (which he had time to do), the accident could have been avoided.
Of course, nobody is saying that it is never ok to challenge authority.

This is not a choice between "always challenge" and "never challenge". Neither of these choices are ok.
Clearly, the copilot should have challenged the pilot if he thought the pilot was wrong. But the copilot shouldn't always challenge the pilot, cause most of the time the pilot is correct about things.

Like I said, you should only challenge authority whenever it is necessary to do so.
Tenshou
#46
Feb9-13, 08:21 PM
P: 150
Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
In such a situation you would be very much better off either taking a different approach, or simply not pushing the question once you realize they can't give you the answer you seek. This to me is not "challenging authority" so much as it is arguing with someone. They may happen to be in a position of authority, but that fact in itself doesn't mean you are challenging them. In my opinion at least.

Of course the old rule of "It's not what you say it's HOW you say it" still applies. You may be asking valid questions, but how you say it or when you ask may be considered as rude and inappropriate.
I am an impolite person, by nature, don't blame me for my natural inquisitions, my innate curiosity. You wouldn't blame a person with down syndrome who couldn't tie their shoe could you? Why blame a person who is some what impolite?

Quote Quote by micromass View Post
You seem to be unable to see a difference between "challenging authority" and "questioning authority".

For examples, when you are in scientific circles, there will always be authorities who know more than you and who have more experience than you. Do you always challenge them? Say that they are wrong? No, you listen to what they have to say and accept it. Of course, you should also think critically and judge whether their words were correct or not. Only if they were wrong, then you challenge them.

If you always go around challenging authority, then you are never able to learn. If you never question authority, then you can never learn either.

And authorities are usually wrong? Please. So that means that you consider most prominent math and physics textbooks to be usually wrong? Your parents are usually wrong? All of these are authorities.
Sorry about that, forgive my semantics confusion. I just, have always heard to not question or challenge authority and associated the two, Seeking answers by challenging and questioning what is the "root" system, I just want to understand like any human would, that is why I believe the school system is killing natural curiosities, dulling the mind. Again, forgive me for the confusion.

Quote Quote by Buckleymanor View Post
We have to be very careful and respectful to get the best results from people.
Misunderstandings and misinformortion cause much harm.
The problem is challenging and questioning authority both overlap.It's sometimes hard to ask a question without being challenging.
Neigh, disinformation, is worse then misinformation, yet you are right about the questioning and challenging. Just the way I was brought up.

Quote Quote by Evo View Post
Yes, if we go by dictionary definitions, the verb "question" would mean to ask, usually for clarification. The verb "challenge" would mean to dispute the truth or validity of something.

To members, lets not go off topic with specific examples of issues where there was confusion over something that was happening, that's not what the OP is referring to. We could go all over the place filling this thread with examples for and against decisions and outcomes.
They both ask why, I guess it really does matter they way in which something is said, no?
outcomes are proof enough for me, it is the way we learn, from other mistakes, but that isn't what the thread is about. That would be nice to keep examples off though.

Quote Quote by jim hardy View Post
Who knows? It's a matter of degree. How easily are you set off? How hard do you push? Do you feel a "need to win" ? Do others tell you to 'lighten up' ?

Here's another to ponder:
you might ask your 'authorities' how it is they perceive you.

old jim
I would like to say that I am a "Patience Person", but I do not know. I find it hard to believe that with all of these reflected ideals, meaning that it is difficult to correct my self when I am around people who find it easy to get angry easily.
Drakkith
#47
Feb9-13, 08:59 PM
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Quote Quote by Tenshou View Post
I am an impolite person, by nature, don't blame me for my natural inquisitions, my innate curiosity. You wouldn't blame a person with down syndrome who couldn't tie their shoe could you? Why blame a person who is some what impolite?
Hmmm. We could go very deep into this subject, but I think it's fair to say that a person with down syndrome literally cannot comprehend tying a shoe. You however have a much much greater control over yourself. You just don't want to change. I assume you don't even see any reason to. This is very common. One of the absolute hardest things for a person to do is to change the way they think and act.

The fact that you even asked this question tells me that you either don't understand, or don't care about the way other people think. I don't think the issue here has anything to do with challenging authority, I think you're just a rude and impolite person who has never truly given a thought about how others feel and think. If so, then please realize that while difficult, changing yourself would greatly lessen any conflicts with people you may be having. If I am incorrect...then I'm incorrect. It is difficult to know for sure based on a few posts.

You said earlier that you had been in a leadership position, but people didn't like you in that position. I find it extremely rare that someone is disliked JUST because of a position they are put in. Usually it's because they already disliked that person and now they are in charge of them. However, even in the case of someone being disliked, they can still be an effective leader many times. It's just a little harder. The act of actively changing yourself to become a better leader usually brings about a way of thinking that leads to a much greater understanding of both yourself and others, which brings nothing but good things. I've seen several cases where everyone groaned when someone was put in charge, but when they pulled through to become decent leaders those same people stopped groaning.
stofferjj
#48
Feb9-13, 10:02 PM
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I am an impolite person, by nature, don't blame me for my natural inquisitions, my innate curiosity. You wouldn't blame a person with down syndrome who couldn't tie their shoe could you? Why blame a person who is some what impolite?
Really? No, I wouldn't blame a person with downs syndrome for not being able to tie their shoe.
I wouldn't because they may be incapable of doing so, but you can be polite as a sign of respect when with your peers. Its just common social protocol.
Tenshou
#49
Feb11-13, 04:24 PM
P: 150
I have spent sometime thinking carefully about what to post as a reply to the below. There is a question to any who read this. What does it mean to be polite in, around or outside of an social situation(context)? I would like to see answers to these questions, so that I can get a feel for what peers believe about social situations and ideal concepts which should/shouldn't be challenged.

Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
Hmmm. We could go very deep into this subject, but I think it's fair to say that a person with down syndrome literally cannot comprehend tying a shoe. You however have a much much greater control over yourself. You just don't want to change. I assume you don't even see any reason to. This is very common. One of the absolute hardest things for a person to do is to change the way they think and act.

The fact that you even asked this question tells me that you either don't understand, or don't care about the way other people think. I don't think the issue here has anything to do with challenging authority, I think you're just a rude and impolite person who has never truly given a thought about how others feel and think. If so, then please realize that while difficult, changing yourself would greatly lessen any conflicts with people you may be having. If I am incorrect...then I'm incorrect. It is difficult to know for sure based on a few posts.
You maybe be right. A person with down syndrome may not be able to comprehend tying a shoe. Also it maybe true that a person can get stuck in their ways, and won't change. Questions are used to understand. The reason this thread was posted so people can gain understanding about why their ideals are challenged and which way is the way to progress( or in my belief, away from decentralization of power, yet there are good things about centralized power and non.). What do you believe is Challenging authority, questioning a persons actions, polite and/or impolite? When is it proper to question a persons opinion? What does it mean to put a persons knowledge into question, to you? no professional opinion(knowledge) needed.

Quote Quote by stofferjj View Post
Really? No, I wouldn't blame a person with downs syndrome for not being able to tie their shoe.
I wouldn't because they may be incapable of doing so, but you can be polite as a sign of respect when with your peers. Its just common social protocol.
Same goes for you, what do you think about a polite person, meaning what makes a person polite? can this same circumstance make them insane? what do you define as being polite? What is respect to people of a peer group? What can you define as a "social protocol"? does this have anything to do with being accepted?
Drakkith
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Feb11-13, 04:30 PM
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Tenshou, your questions are simply too broad for me to answer in a forum post. Entire books have been written on everything you're asking and I simply don't know enough to even begin to explain my opinions.
Tenshou
#51
Feb11-13, 04:50 PM
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Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
Tenshou, your questions are simply too broad for me to answer in a forum post. Entire books have been written on everything you're asking and I simply don't know enough to even begin to explain my opinions.
Then why attempt to abase me on a few simple post I have written? This forum post is simply here to pique you and all the others participants (anyone on this forum in general) interest in such a serious social topic. Authority and Culture(Social Context). Although, I did know you couldn't not answer these questions, just state simple opinions on it like everyone else has tried.
Ryan_m_b
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Feb11-13, 05:05 PM
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Quote Quote by Tenshou View Post
Then why attempt to abase me on a few simple post I have written? This forum post is simply here to pique you and all the others participants (anyone on this forum in general) interest in such a serious social topic. Authority and Culture(Social Context). Although, I did know you couldn't not answer these questions, just state simple opinions on it like everyone else has tried.
I don't think this is fair at all. Drakkith has given you good advice but your questions based on that are impossibly broad. If someone recommends beng polite do you think it's fair to ask them to outline every parameter for how to decide what exact type of behaviour is the best option? Rather than getting bogged down in this I suggest that you pick some specific examples that you can recieve feedback on e.g. "yesterday I challanged X over Y like this, was it polite?"
Tenshou
#53
Feb11-13, 05:22 PM
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Okay, I think I get what you are saying. Did you read my first post prior to that? I asked anyone to give simple input on what they, they think about what is impolite/polite regardless/irregardless of the social context because apparently I did something rude, and (always) do something rude, based on a few post. I was not just asking Drakkith, yet I was asking any one who was willing to answer(relay some input on) what they think about Authority and Culture(Social Context), or here, if this is succinct enough: what do they think about centralized forms of rule? where do "I" stand next to the authority? In other words. I just want to see peoples input, personal thoughts about this "broad" topic, and if it is to much to ask do you think this should be moved to the humanities bulletin board?
pongo38
#54
Feb11-13, 05:28 PM
P: 699
Tenshou: There is more than one way of dealing satisfactorily with any situation such as you describe. Two different approaches are represented by a model from cricket (UK) or similar bat and ball games - I don't know much about other games. The person batting can either confront the bowled ball head on and return the ball more or less in the opposite direction to the incoming ball; or, they may carefully deflect the ball, using its momentum to change its path slightly. Personally, I have seldom found that confrontation succeeds. I have had more success with getting alongside a difficult person, travelling with them, understanding their point of view and taking opportunities as they arise to deflect them away from their chosen path. Not always successful. But neither is confrontation. Can you acknowledge that confronting authority, good as it may be sometimes in the right place, is not the only way to achieve anything? Perhaps you could amplify your response by indicating to readers the situations where confronting authority has been clearly successful, and situations where an unforeseen undesirable outcome occurred.


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