Putting a simple momentum equation into words

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the wording and interpretation of momentum equations in physics, specifically focusing on the equations Ʃ F = dp/dt and ∫ Ʃ F dt = ∫ dp/dt dt. Participants are seeking clarity on how to express these equations in simpler terms and whether certain mathematical steps hold physical meaning.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the wording "total net force" is redundant and proposes simplifying it to just "net force."
  • Another participant argues that the term "sum" is incorrect in the context of integrals, asserting that "integral" is the appropriate term to use.
  • There is a discussion about the physical meaning of the equation Ʃ F dt = dp, with one participant stating it is mathematically meaningful but lacks physical significance unless under constant conditions.
  • Some participants propose alternative phrasings for the equations, including removing certain terms like "over time" and suggesting that the integral of a rate of change can be expressed as the change of momentum.
  • One participant expresses frustration with the complexity of explaining the Riemann sum notation in simpler terms.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the wording of the equations and the appropriateness of certain terms. There is no consensus on a single correct phrasing, and multiple viewpoints on the interpretation of the equations are present.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the nuances in terminology and the implications of mathematical notation, indicating that the discussion is limited by the need for clarity in both mathematical and physical contexts.

tolove
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Check the accuracy of my wording for these first two equations, then, if you could, try to explain the last equation for me.

Ʃ F = dp/dt
"The total net force acting on a particle is equal to the rate of change of momentum over time."

∫ Ʃ F dt = ∫ dp/dt dt
"The sum of the total net force acting on a particle over a time interval is equal to the sum of the rate of change of momentum over a time interval."

My physics book breaks up differentials like this very regularly so as to make it clear for integration. But my question is, is this step a meaningful equation, or is this simply mathematical notation?
Ʃ F dt = dp

Thanks!
 
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hi tolove! :smile:
tolove said:
Ʃ F = dp/dt
"The total net force acting on a particle is equal to the rate of change of momentum over time."

yes, except …

"total" and "net" mean the same, so you needn't use both

personally, i'd say that "rate" means "over time", so i'd leave that out also
∫ Ʃ F dt = ∫ dp/dt dt
"The sum of the total net force acting on a particle over a time interval is equal to the sum of the rate of change of momentum over a time interval."

"sum" is definitely wrong

it's an integral (and there's no simple-english alternative to that word) :wink:

and you need to use the word "same" … "over the same time interval"
My physics book breaks up differentials like this very regularly so as to make it clear for integration. But my question is, is this step a meaningful equation, or is this simply mathematical notation?
Ʃ F dt = dp

it's mathematically meaningful (it's a statement about mathematical objects called "differentials"),

but it has no physical meaning, except as a limit or an approximation: it would never apply to an actual time interval (unless everything is constant) :smile:
 
tiny-tim said:
hi tolove! :smile:

To correct the first one,
Ʃ F = dp/dt
"The net force acting on a particle is equal to the change of momentum over time."

and for ∫ Ʃ F dt = ∫ dp/dt dt,

"The integral of the total force acting on a particle over a certain time interval is equal to the integral of the rate of change of momentum over the same time interval."

And if I wanted to remove the word "integral," I could put the Reimann sum notation into words.

These don't make good bedtime stories. Thank you for clearing up that third equation for me! That has been driving me nuts.
 
hi tolove! :smile:
tolove said:
"The net force acting on a particle is equal to the change of momentum over time."

oops! :redface:

i should have been clearer … i meant leave out "over time" … you do need the words "rate of"!
"The integral of the total force acting on a particle over a certain time interval is equal to the integral of the rate of change of momentum over the same time interval."

the integral of a rate of change is just the original function, so you could shorten that to:

"The integral of the total force acting on a particle over a certain time interval is equal to the change of momentum over the same time interval."

(and of course you can shorten "The integral of the total force" to "The impulse" :wink:)
And if I wanted to remove the word "integral," I could put the Reimann sum notation into words.

how? :confused:

(without taking several paragraphs and making it really confusing :redface:)
 
tiny-tim said:
how? :confused:

(without taking several paragraphs and making it really confusing :redface:)

Yep! By making it long and confusing.
 

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