What price Free Will?

Billy T

Free will is not free!

Before starting this thread, I read all of thread "On Free will," which Imparcticle created from thread "Can You prove you Exist" because it had converted into a discussion of "Free Will."His new thread seems to have converted into a discussion of "Random" - First reason for new thread.

In Imparcticle's post #6 he quotes from a long web page the following price someone was willing to pay for free will:

That person was suggesting " – the claim that the Laws of Nature are not of our choosing – is a relic of the earlier view that Laws of Nature are God's inviolable prescriptions to the Universe. If we fully abandon the view that the Laws of Nature are prescriptions, then the way is open for us to rescue the theory that Free Will exists.
6.7 Do Laws of Nature Govern the Universe?...."

He went on in section 6.7 of his long web page to answer his own question in the negative. He considers the "laws of nature" to be just man made "descriptions." - To me that is a high price to pay.

I have a Ph. D. in physics and believe the we discover existing laws of nature. I won't pay that price, yet like almost everyone, I feel I make real choices in life and want a rational bases for a belief in Genuine Free Will, GFW.

Unfortunately, my knowledge of physics (and biology) forced me (for many year) to conclude that Quantum Mechanics was actual determining the details of the neuro-chemistry in the release, transport and attachment of molecules in the synaptic gaps between my neurons. That in truth, I only had the illusion that "I" was deciding anything. - When I am being careful, I put quotes around I, me, we, us, you, etc. to indicate that the "I" I am speaking of is not my body nor any miracle (inconsistent with physics, such as a "soul.") (You will learn just what "I" is soon, be patient.)

After many years troubled by the inconsistence in my system of beliefs (Believing in both GFW and Physic but not miracles) I began to study vision. Quickly I realized that the theory accepted by almost all cognitive scientists is half right and half wrong. They teach: (1) that the 2D retinal image information is "neurally processed", first in V1, and later in various other parts of the brain, to extract "features" (such as color, motion etc.) that then (2) "emerge" to form our unified perception of a 3D world with discrete reconized objects in it. It is the second (2) part that I concluded is false. I too believe part (1). Eventually I replaced (2) with a new theory and publised the results in the Johns Hopkins APL Technical Digest. (I worked for JHU for almost 30 years.) Totaslly unexpectedly, my solution to the problem of visual perception presented me with a price for GFW that I was willing to pay. You may think the cost is too high. I invite you to consider the attachment, which is a condenstation of that JHU vision paper, with some additions to make the clear how it s possible to have GFW consistent with physics, if you are willing to pay the price as I was and am still. I hope you will comment on both the attachment and tell what price you would pay to make your system of beliefs free fo conflict between your understanding of phyics and a belief in GFW, if you do belive in GFW.

Attached Files

Free Will, Out of Africa.doc (32.5 KB, 55 views)

Philocrat

Ultimately, free will means:

BEING ABOVE ALL CAUSAL AND RELATIONAL LAWS OF NATURE (OR PHYSICS, IF YOU LIKE).

I am not quite sure if any thing with that sort of physical ability really exist, except maybe GOD. But even if things in Nature or in the Universe were causally and relationally restricted as so passively presupposed by the above definition, FREEWILL can still be understooded from the point of view of KNOWLEDGE. So, we can still redefine it as:

KNOWING HOW TO OVERCOME OR ELIMINATE ALL CAUSAL AND RELATIONAL OBSTACLES AND OBSTRUCTIONS FROM MY CAUSAL AND MUTATIONAL PATHWAYS.

Some Philosophers think of DETERMINISM as a buit-in obstacle to freewill. They argue that if determinism (predeterminism) is true, then freewill is impossible. I personally do not think that this is really the case. I always argue that:

IF KNOWLEDGE IS POSSIBLE AND PROGRESSIVE IN HUMANS THEN FREEWILL IS POSSIBLE.

If that is true, then determinism or predeterminism has no real effect on freewill, and even if there is one currently in play this should be construed as ephemeral in scope and in substance.

------------------------
THINK NATURE......STAY GREEN! MAY THE 'BOOK OF NATURE' SERVE YOU WELL AND BRING YOU ALL THAT IS GOOD!

Billy T

Philocat said:
"Ultimately, free will means:
BEING ABOVE ALL CAUSAL AND RELATIONAL LAWS OF NATURE (OR PHYSICS, IF YOU LIKE)."

Billy T replies:
I grant you the right to define free will as you do, but that is not the free will I am talking about. That is why I called my version Genuine Free Will, GFW.

Next Philocrat said:
"So, we can still redefine it as:
KNOWING HOW TO OVERCOME OR ELIMINATE ALL CAUSAL AND RELATIONAL OBSTACLES AND OBSTRUCTIONS FROM MY CAUSAL AND MUTATIONAL PATHWAYS."

Billy T replies:
Not sure I understand, but he seems to be converting even his "free will" into "knowledge." I started this thread because I want to discuss GFW, not "knowledge." Please stick closer to the thread in future posts.

Then Philocrat said:
"Some Philosophers think of DETERMINISM as a buit-in obstacle to freewill. They argue that if determinism (predeterminism) is true, then freewill is impossible. I personally do not think that this is really the case. I always argue that:
"IF KNOWLEDGE IS POSSIBLE AND PROGRESSIVE IN HUMANS THEN FREEWILL IS POSSIBLE.
If that is true, then determinism or predeterminism has no real effect on freewill, and even if there is one currently in play this should be construed as ephemeral in scope and in substance."

Billy T replies:
Now you really are way outside the thread. A basic assumption in this thread is that there is a conflict between GFW and Physic (Natural Laws). See attachment to first post of thread.

You are of course free to disagree, but in some other thread. This thread is about what price one must (or is willing) to pay to resolve this conflict. Perhaps you are saying that you "resolve the conflict" by denying it. OK, but not here.

Mentat

Welcome to the PFs, BillyT

I've got a question about one of your premises. You say that we do not consciously perceive the external world, but rather the simulation that such world produces within our brains, right? You also agree that the external stimulus produces that simulation, and is thus causally related, right?

If such premises are true, then it would be necessary for light to enter my retinae in order for me to newly perceive the simulation of that which emitted/reflected the light ITFP. That would mean that my eyes are still useful, because they convey the information to the "simulation center". If so, wouldn't I need eyes within that simulation center to perceive the simulation? If yes, then I should think that, since we are explaining the perception of external phenomena, and the simulation is "external" relative to the "inner eye" that it enters, and that they (the "inner eyes") must then relay that information to yet a deeper "simulation center", which has its own "inner inner eyes", et cetera ad infinitum....

Have I misunderstood what you were saying?

Crosson

This is called epiphenomenalism, the idea that our minds are an epiphenomenon (an inert byproduct) of our bodies. I agree with your analysis, but I have to remind you that, like all compatibilists (we are not genuinely free, but it is possible to speak of freedom in a meaningful sense), the argument is off the topic of genuine free will.

Oh, but I have to comment on that quantum babble. In philosophy, people like to whip out QM like a wild card that makes anything possible. Quantum indeterminate events are not random, in the sense that you use the word genuine (i would say ontological). They are epistemically random, and thus can never lead to genuine free will. Even more to the point, although the outcome of an event cannot be determined precisely before hand, the probability of a particular occurence can be precisely determined in advance (ruling out the possibility of influencing indeterminate events with free will.)

Billy T

Right.

Yes, very useful, but not essential in two ways.
(1)I think even the congentially blind run the real-time simulation I suggest.
(2)People with normal vision can close their eyes and have visual experiences, admitly not with the same detail as when actually looking at something with eyes open. For example, with your eyes shut you should have no trouble visualizind a tiger (assuming you have seen several before). You will be able to tell me if your mental image of it has the head to the right or the left. (low detail) but you will not be able to count the number of vertical stripes (higher resolution) which you would easily be able to do if you were actually looking ar one. Try it - you will "see" I am right.

I also note that when sleeping you have visual experiences with your eyes closed (dreams) There is strong evidence that Rapid Eye Movement, (REM sleep stage) is associated with these dreams (but not solid proof). Usually when REM activity exists there is also enhanced EEG signals from the visual cortex. These facts, support the idea that you are having a visual experience of the same kind as when your eyes are open, only it is a low resolution version.

You did not give me a "no" option, but the answer is NO. You went on to correctly note that the yes responce leads direcly to the infinite regress, but did not cal it by its standard name. By chance, my last post prior to this one was a reply to Bolo in the thread "an idea about consciousness and materialism" (my post was #16 in that thread.) The essence of my earlier reply to Bolo was to warn him that he was on the "slipper slope of an infinite regress." He was concerened as to where the image is since the brain is just atoms etc. He wanted a "monitor" to produce the image and did not seem to understand that the monitor is also, just atoms. I will quote most of my post 16 repying to him to show that I understand well the infinite regress problem:

"...you are on a slipper slope by suggesting that since you can't preceive the image, you presume that you have some monitor that makes the perception possible. This leads to the obvious question: How does the monitor perceive? Well, it has a monitor with which it pecceives ....etc....etc...etc...without end or resolution of the original problem. (Usually called the "infinite regress trap.)"

selfAdjoint

Semi Zeki, perhaps the world's leading expert on primate visual systems, has authored with Andreas Bartels a theory (http://www.vislab.ucl.ac.uk/pdf/asoc.pdf) that the visual experience is constructed by a number of independent, asynchronous processes, and that neither the spatial organization nor the times of the visual experiences as we believe them to be are necessary a faithful representation of what our eyes and body experience. Daniel Dennett, of course, presented his theory of competing partial drafts in his book Consciousness Explained. It seems to me that your theory would go well with these. Do you think so?

Billy T

I thank you for "agreeing" but since your "agreement" is a strong challange, I hope you never disagree with me

I am not very concerned with the names one stick on concepts so I will permit you to apply any labels you like. I do take strong exception to your unsupported statement that "we are not genuinely free." Perhaps your throwing me in the box with "compatibilists" is your "support." If that is thecase, and they agree that "we are not genuinely free," then you have definitely made a mistake to assume I belong in that box/croud.

The whole point of the attachment to the first post in this thread I started is summed up in the title of the attachment to that first post ("Genuine Free Will is Possible").

I cannot be sure to which "argument" you are referring in your last sentence above, but surely you do not think that a carefully reasoned, well supported argument, with several proofs in it supporting my claim that Genuine Free Will, GFW, is possible - one that also concludes the statement that one must pay the price of being non material to have GFWis "off the topic" in a thread whose very title is: "What Price Free Will" !!!

Having spent sever hundred hours turning the crank of QM formalism (both the matrix and analytic versions) while earning my Ph.D in Physics, I can hardly relate to a "quantum babble" concept. I bet anyone who thinks QM is "babble" has never ground thru a QM calculation and probably does not know a hamiltonian from a hamberger! I definitely know that QM is not a "wild card." It is a computationally difficulty and inflexible science. In the hands of one who actually can calculate with it, the results are without any freedom, just like the summation of three numbers has only one correct result.

BTW you state that you "have to comment" on QM, but the only "comment" I can see that you made is difficult to distinguish from simple name calling.

I would really enjoy reading any true comment from you on the substance of QM. There are good philosophical questions in QM. For example, please comment on what distinguish an "observation", which forces a mixed state wave function into one pure eigen state, from an "interaction", which only changes the relative strength of the eigen states making up the mixture. I anxiously await your reply!

QM events are random, so I need not try to understand what you mean in the sentence that starts by denying this. By "events i assume we aree both talking about an event that we know something about -I.e. something that is "observed" (Don't go off into things like "if no human was looking was it an "observation" etc. An "observation" was made, for example, during the interaction of a cosmic ray with some photographic film transported to the high atmosphere even if when the ballon is recovered by some farmer he opens the film box and ruins the expeiment by excessive exposure of the film to light. I.e. no intelligent life form need ever participate in an "observation", but of course you will explain all that to me whne you comment on the difference between "observations" and "interactions."

Unlike me, you must be a real philosopher - you sure seem to worry more about the labels applied to concepts than the concepts to which they are applied. I don't want to get into fine discussions about what is epistemimology, babble, compatibilists, ontology, epiphenomen, etc. - I am a practical physicist who happens to be interested in one philosophical problem: "is GFW consistent with physics.

To question what I mean by "genuine" is fair enough. I thought it clear from "...Genuine Free Will, GFW, i.e. real choices made by one’s self..." which is part of the fourth sentence of the "Genuine Free Will is Possible" attachment. Much as I destest trying to give precise definitions of non-mathematical concepts, I will expand this "definition" by noting that "genuine" is used in oppsition to "illusionary." - Hope that helps.

Have you actually read the attachment and still not understood from this and the contex what I mean by "genuine free will"? Were all those words about QM making the real decisions at the molcular level in the complex bio-chemical system of our brains (and thus at best QM only permits the illusion of free will, but not GFW) lost on you?

There is hope for you yet! YOU ARE 100% CORRECT HERE !!!

Many people have heard of the QM uncertainity principle and falsely conclude that QM is not deterministic. The equations of QM are completely deterministic (until and "observation" is made). As you correctly note, even the probability of each of the possible eigen states that an observation can force a mixed state into is exactly predictable from the QM equations (any thing exactly predictable is deterministic). Even the popular conception of the uncertainity principle is at least flawed. There are pairs of "observables" (things you can meaure) for which the product of the uncertainity in both measurements has a minium value. These pairs are the ones you compute with "Operators" that do not permute under the Hamiltonian. Pair of observable that do permute under the hamiltonian can both be measured as accurately as your skill (and budget) permits - there is not theoretic limit on the accuracy of simultaneous measurement of variables whose operators do commute under the hamiltonian. I bet this really does seem to be "babble" to you.

Billy T

Basically yes. BTW, when Dan's book came out approximately 12 years ago, even though I had paid extra for "expidited" shipment, I had to delay my vacation trip to a Mexico one day to receive it. I already knew I would enjoy it from his prior publications in the CogSci literature. - Less than 24 hours my copy was full of margin notes - I am probably the first menbe of the general bublic to have read that book. I have read many others that are related as well as the literature, but stoped that about 10 years ago when I moved to Brazil. The problem that I solve, and no cognitive scientist can even suggest a solution for (except to mutter the wonderful word "emerges") is how do all the "features" extracted from the retinal image information in very separated regions of the brain ever get unfied again to facilitate the emergence of our unified visual experience?

I will visit your recommed URL later - must quit now - wife is getting angry with me as we have house guests!

Crosson

I do physics also, so we are not so different other than that I am using apropriate vocabulary. [when you say: " I am not very concerned with the names one stick on concepts", you remind me of myself in highschool biology].

How about some quotes of you:

"we are an informational process in a simulation, not a physical body"

"GFW does exist in the only world we exist in"

What is it about information processes that makes them free? That is, how does an information process think and choose?

How can we have free will if we are always in one to one correspondence with our causally determined physical bodies?

godzilla7

ok I tried closing my eyes and visualizing a tiger, I could quite easily present a photograph although not as high rez as seeing a tiger admitedly, I could not only count the stripes but I could count the leaves on the trees behind in my photo too, is there something wrong with me, cause you said it's not possible to do that, I am dyslexic which I believe gives me some advantage in visualising the world, didn't realise I had a gift like that, can anyone else who's not dyslexic do this?

Anyway that aside, we're referring to the fact that QM is random therefore thoughts can also be random are we? And if so then a quantum thought is out side the realms or dictates of predeterminism, probably true, the quantum throws and undeniable chaos into existence that may indicate that there is nothing predetermined as such, since we're all linked to the universe if one truly chaotic change happens in the universe, we should have a staggering potential even exponential for utter randomness and chaos. if every variable is subject to the quantum all be it rarely on the macro scale, then how can anything ever be determined in advance.

God plays dice with the universe, are we going to suggest those dice are loaded? we can't cause QM says that there are no definite answers just probable ones, even god doesn't have a predetermined idea; I'm not a big philosophy reader, but I do think if you accept QM laws then you can't equate determinism any more. Of course is what we're seeing the >truth< and if not then could we all just be deluding ourselves that there is anything there at all, could QM just be as predictable as classical physics is, are we programmed by nature to perceive things in a random manner to aid our survival, to prepare us for the unexpected on a subconscious level?

According to NASA and some notable biologists DNA uses quantum principles to locate base pairs quicker for faster replication I read this in a science magazine, but I'm not sure where the original paper is, probably in Nature, can we not then assume the rest of the body including the brain also uses the quantum for expediency, if it does and QM is erroneous, then can we ever see what's really out there, or are our minds trapped in a quantum cage. Please gentleman I make no claims that what I'm saying has any real evidence there just ideas, hypothetical postulates. we can argue both ways snot the argument that matters but the insight we get from such discussion, I think it was Socrates who advocated arguing on both sides of the fence.

thanks for reading my inane ramblings if you made it this far kudos to you

selfAdjoint

The best shot I have about quantum, the universe, and everything is that we encounter a mixture of deterministic chaos and stochastic determinism.

Deterministic chaos is all of that fractal and strange attractor stuff.

Stochastic determinism is what quantum physics brings us, not free probabilities, but probabilities constrained by unitary (i.e. deterministic) evolution between wave collapses;and in practice quantum interactions quickly diagonalize to something that at our scale and temperature looks just like classical physics.

Billy T

Two good questions, but I think I can clarify both with one reply (at least my view):
"We" (I am using the quotes to indicate that I am speaking of "myself," the aware enity that is probably a sub routine in the parietial simulation,) are not in perfect one to one correspondence with our physical bodies. An exteme example of this is a phantom limb - something very real in the experience of the person suffering it. (for even 20 or 30 years) They of course know it is not there, but their experience of it is just as real / strong as the one that is there. "out of body" experiences are real experiences, but are not, IMHO, events that occurredwith bodies floating in space etc. In a less extreme case, the simulation causes us to perceive things a little different than they actually are. (illusions, sound seeming to come from the actor in a movie with lps moving when in fact it eminates from the speaker on the side wall, hallucinations, etc.) The presumption of "one-to-one" relationship between the physical world and the simulation I suggest we experience is your presumpt or missunderstanding of my claim.

Perhaps an analogy to a movie, made pixel-by-pixel, will help. Crude productions do not change the appearance of the character's hair even if struggeling in a wind storm. The best production have hundreds is strands of hair in their equations representating a head of hair, but none are exactly reproducing the real motion as the laws of nature would made it happen -too expensive and not needed. So it is in the simulation I suggest, but far better done than Pixel Co. ever dreamed of doing.

The point is: the simulation is not bound to follow the laws of nature exactly -hence it is not constrained to have a deterministic, or even only a QM probabilistic, future. GFW is possible - can be consistent with physics, but only if "you" are not the material body. (This price I am willing to pay - a paridigm shift about what I am)

Please note that I am not claiming we have GFW, only showing that we could and not violate physics.

To be more specifically responsive to your first question: I don't know how the sub routine that is "me" functions, but it sure seems to make choices. I suspect much of it's personality is actually stored in the frontal lobes and possible accessed by what in old fortran was a "call."

Billy T

Interesting - never tried with a photo instead of an imagined tigre. Some people have "photographic memories" perhapse you are approaching that (or have one) Another possiblility may be important, and you can test this one. Neurons which have been recently active (last few seconds) are more easily excited. It is called idetic memory (spelling may not be correct). You probably have used it many times, when not paying much attention to someone talking and suddenly realize that yu need to. You can quasi "play back" the first part of the sentence.
This examle is not pure, because we understand sentences with storage of words which could have different meanings (or funtional use) in the sentence until later parts of the sentence contex make it clear which is correct. Great, well known, example of this is the following perfect sentence: "The horse raced past the barn fell." (Hint: "raced" is not the past tense of a verb.)

Thus try countng the windows on a large office building that you imagined, and with a photo source, try to count the windows at least one hour after last looking at the photo.

Some physicists, despirate to resolve the conflict between their sense of GFW and physics have turned to the uncertainity of QM, but I never did. I won't pay that price for the type of "free will" you can get from chance. I would prefer to be a classical-physics biological machine, fully deterministic and trust that evolution has it reasonably well perfected by now. For more of my views - see my responce in my last post, #13.

Billy T

If I understand you correctly, I completelyagree. I think QM plays no essential role in opening the possibility of GFW. That is, real-time simulation the mechanism I suggest opens the possibility of GFW would work just as well even if LaPlace's deterministic universe were phycical fact (except because once GFW exisit in the simulated world and "I" can interact with the physical world, then LaPlace can kiss his predictions good by.)

See my replies to others in my post 13 and 14 for more clarification.

Philocrat

A TT(Timeless Traveller) is 'Psychophysically Free' because He/She/It always travels and does everything at Time t = 0, regardless of the distance, curvature and dimensions of spacetime. This is consistent with my original definition:

Being over and above all causal and relational laws of nature or physics.

Maybe there is a universe where the laws of physics are completely different and what I am defining here is already possible. The question, which my entire philosophy is seeking, is whether this will ever be possible in our own universe? Will it? If the answer is yes, then I will take this to imply that:

A human being or anything CAN structurally and functionally progress (perhaps be scientifically redesigned) to a point in time where he/she/it KNOWS everything about the world such that it CAN think and act freely and unrestricted by anything else. This would be metaphysically equivalent to being 'Psychophysically Free'. For to be psychophysically free is to be totally free!

That would be the day!

NOTE: The Problem with GFW is that it may be a mere speculation locked up behind COP (Critical Observation Point), for a GFW, if it is truely genuine, must demonstrate (without any shaky foundation) how the mind animates the body of any size and scale of referece in spacetime unrestricted or unobstructed by anything else.

Tournesol

No, on the standard (Copenhagen) view, they are ontologically random.

That is back-to-front. The usual idea of QM in relation to naturalistic FW is that quantum indetermism supplies the needed elbow room , ie QM constitutes FW, not FW influences qunatum events.