A flex-fuel pump in every gas station

Ivan Seeking

Senator Biden suggested this on Meet The Press today: Mandate that every station must have a flex-fuel pump.

This sounds like a very tempting idea. Whether the best approach or not, I think we need to set national goals to convert the US to alternative fuels as the standard within ten years. I also believe that right now we could convert much of the diesel fleet as fast as we can build bio-diesel refineries. But in the case of both diesel and gasoline, IMO, the price of crude makes alternatives competitive and this the time to act.

I been looking and intend to get involved in promoting and assisting the biodiesel industry here in Oregon. I don't know exactly how best to contribute, but I want to start taking action to help this change happen. I also hope to buy a flex-fuel vehicle as our next car.

Suggestions? What can each of us do to help make the change? Where are the opportunties? What can students do? What opportunities exist for science and engineering students in this new growth industry?

LURCH

I think students can do more than anyone.

When my shop closed, I had the option of taking some college courses to help me get a new job. I don't have the math skills for a chem. major, so I'm taking CAD and robotics. Once I have my degree (hopefully "degrees"), I plan to apply for work at the new methenol refinery that just broke ground the month I started school. I'm too old to ever be on the forefront of the new tech, but I could be involved in one of the many millions of jobs it could create. And, if I don't get in at the refinery, maybe I'll try GM or Chrysler, and try to get into the fuelcell work that they're doing.

But these are extreme examples involving devoting one's entire life to this cause. Alternatives could be just shopping for a flex-fuel vehicle the next time you have to buy a car. Or buying your gas at the station that has biofuel. The major fueling stations will get on board as soon as they see that there are financial benifits.

Pengwuino

Why don't more people devote their lives to such causes anyhow? I can see if you're older, but with all the complaining kids out there marching on the street its a surprise there is such a low enrollment in science colleges. No one seems to want to actually work to make a difference.

Ivan Seeking

They say talk is cheap, but one thing seems to be working. I have been talking with customers and "selling" the idea that biodiesel is great for Oregon. "Wouldn't you prefer giving your money to Oregon farmers, rather than Saudi oil tycoons?"

I see the lights turning on upstairs...

edward

And the more people who convert to flex and bio fuels the brighter those lights will shine.

I remember a few years ago when I was in Astoria Oregon I saw a small electric trolley. It had a small flat car hitched to the rear on which was mounted a diesel powered generator. The generator, of course, provided electricity for the trolley.

At the time I thought it was a very novel idea to have a wireless electric trolley. If That diesel generator was to run on bio, if it isn't already, it would be a great example to the public.

This post may not sound political, but it always takes political pressure to get any changes up and running in our society.

Ivan Seeking

Last night a saw a short story on DSC about a guy who plans to break the world's record for traversing the globe in a boat. A high tech craft that goes under the waves in rough seas, the tail section boldly displays - BIODIESEL. In fact he had to make special arrangements to make biodiesel available at refueling points.

I was too busy to get the name and didn't spot a link, but worth a look. I'll try to find it again later. It is a very cool boat.

Pengwuino

mmm i'd rather see people sold on a scientific basis then a xenophobic basis. Then again i'm far too optimistic of a guy.

Ivan Seeking

There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep our money at home or helping farmers. The idea of xenophobic is taken way out of context here. In fact it's a unique argument because it completely avoids issues of evironmentalism, which does turn many people off.

Pengwuino

Considering you specifically target Saudi's, i think it's one of the best words for describing such reactions. Maybe racism is a better word however. How about something less barbaric like "Why boost foreign economies when we can strengthen our own?". And why are you avoiding the environmental issues? Keep money a priority and you can still toss in a few environmental snipits here and there and keep people turned... on

hey according to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodeis...ental_benefits

(uncited however)

You can impress them by drinking some then tossing it in an engine

NateTG

Well, you can already do that with most any food grade oil and a diesel car as long as you dilute the vegetable oil. I don't recommend drinking too much of the vegetable oil at once though.

For the alterantive fuel extremist, fuel gassification (used in WWII during fuel shortages) opens up a *huge* variety of possible fuel sources you could run an engine off of just about anything that burns from Anthricite to Zebra Corpses.

edward

Hey whats with you and your apparent love for saudi oil tycoons? If anyone on this forum even mentions keeping wealth in this coutry the word Xenophobic always pops up.

If bio and flex could just supply 20% of our fuel needs, and that can easily be accomplished, we wouldn't have to start a war in the middle east everytime an Islamic leader passes gas.

Pengwuino

Yah why do you guys always bring up xenophobia in your threads

And can you source a reputable source that says such a thing can "easily" be accomplished?

edward

It depends on what you consider "easily accomplished". The hardest part is convincing politicans to require its availability so that people can make their own choice.

Both bio and alcohol could be mixed with standard fossil fuels at the refineries. Vehicles run great and run clean with a 20% mix with either bio or alcohol. That would accomplish the 20% decrease in use of fossil I mentioned as being easy.

The ideal situation would be to have the "real thing" available at the pumps.

The production process for bio and alcohol is quite simple. Both burn cleaner than regular fossil sources of fuel.
BTW Willy Nelson, the pot smoking , guitar playing old geezer, sells bio in California. Try it you'll like it.
http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/products.html
http://www.house.gov/etheridge/Press...egislation.htm

NateTG

Can you quantify easily? It's definitely possible for example in Brazil.

Ivan Seeking

Ah, you think using the word Saudi makes it racist? Doesn't that in itself seem a little racist? You could say, UAE, Brazilian, or Texan, and it would work just as well. The real point is to showcase personal wealth of the elite - esp the OPEC elite who have held this country hostage in the past - as opposed to the working farmer.

Because many people will automatically reject the idea if they think it is good for the environment. Sad but true.

Never sell science when you can talk money.

Moonbear

One question that comes to mind when discussing bio fuels or ethanol: is it sustainable? Obviously, fossil fuels aren't, so it's not necessarily something that kills the concept, but let's say you got your way and everyone started using a 20% mix of bio or ethanol added to fuels, is there enough farmland to support this? Currently, crops are grown for human food, then the leftover portion inedible for humans is turned into animal feeds. Is there still an excess sufficient for fuel production, and if not, how much new cropland would need to be planted to provide this fuel? Considering how many former farm fields have been sold to developers for building homes, how much land is left to be planted for such a purpose? And, what would be the environmental impact of using that land for crops rather than whatever it's current state is?

Another related concern is if it becomes more profitable for farmers to sell their crops to companies using it to manufacture fuel, what will that do to food costs?

I don't have any answers to these questions at the moment, but before we jump into this based on feel-good reasons, it's worth a deeper look into the long-term economic and environmental impacts if large-scale production of these fuels were implemented. The environmental impact is more than just what's coming out of the tailpipe of the car. If we can really support that sort of growth in the agricultural sector, that's great, but if the demand would quickly outstrip the supply capacity of that sector, then we're in trouble. Has this sort of analysis been done, and if so, where is it available?

brewnog

Nope Moonbear. The USA alone would require over half of its entire land area to be able to support itself on bioethanol.


Ooh, real facts here: