Register to reply

Orwell's 1984 becoming real in the US?

by ksle82
Tags: 1984, orwell, real
Share this thread:
ksle82
#1
Jun27-06, 04:48 PM
P: 38
Is it just me being paranoid or it's really happening? Considering how the Bush admin used 9/11 and faulty inteligent to go to war in iraq, which they called "war on terrorism", used fear to win the 2004 election, the warrantless wiretapping on millions of americans phone call, and now the accessing of hundreds and thousands of amercans finanicial records. Anyone else feels the same way? Hopefully it is just being paranoid.
Phys.Org News Partner Science news on Phys.org
World's largest solar boat on Greek prehistoric mission
Google searches hold key to future market crashes
Mineral magic? Common mineral capable of making and breaking bonds
selfAdjoint
#2
Jun27-06, 04:53 PM
Emeritus
PF Gold
P: 8,147
Quote Quote by ksle82
What evidence is there that Jesus ever talked about hell, for instance?
Nonsense. The US has ALWAYS been at war with Iraq!
mrjeffy321
#3
Jun27-06, 05:03 PM
Sci Advisor
P: 882
Quote Quote by selfAdjoint
Nonsense. The US has ALWAYS been at war with Iraq!
lol.

Last time I checked my globe, I did not see a Eurasia, thats a good sign.
I am doing my part, I have a Macintosh computer (not really).

In Orwell's 1984, things are always reported to be great and getting better, a little less than what one might gather from watching the news today.

DaveC426913
#4
Jun27-06, 06:43 PM
DaveC426913's Avatar
P: 15,319
Orwell's 1984 becoming real in the US?

Quote Quote by mrjeffy321
In Orwell's 1984, things are always reported to be great and getting better, a little less than what one might gather from watching the news today.
You sure about that?

It's true, we have managed to keep tabs on all this, and the media is not completely controlled by the government. However, it's not for wont of trying.
Omega_6
#5
Jun27-06, 06:52 PM
P: 40
I don't know if we are quite up to 1984 yet (as in, not anywhere near), but every little bit of freedom lost is certainly disturbing. There is no way to have a perfectly secure free nation, and I lean more towards freedom . We should be working to keep every ounce of freedom we have, and not be following our government wherever it leads.
russ_watters
#6
Jun27-06, 07:32 PM
Mentor
P: 22,239
I don't think we're anywhere close to "1984" and I think people misunderstand/misapply the analogy. It is one of my favorite books because to me it speaks to the pitfalls of socialism. I realize he was in favor of democratic socialism, but it is the socialism part that leads to "1984", not the democracy part. Ie, he uses the USSR as his model, and the USSR used socialism to achieve totalitarianism. Perhaps he didn't even see the irony there.
In his essay Why I Write, Orwell clearly explains that all the "serious work" he had written since the Spanish Civil War in 1936 was "written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism".... (Why I Write) So Nineteen Eighty-Four can be seen as a cautionary tale against totalitarianism, and in particular the betrayal of a revolution by those claiming to defend/support it (as Stalin did 1928 onwards). However, as many reviewers/critics have stated, it should not be read as an attack on socialism as a whole, but on totalitarianism (and potential totalitarianism).

Orwell had already set forth his distrust of totalitarianism and the betrayal of revolutions in Homage to Catalonia and Animal Farm. Coming Up For Air, at points, celebrates the individual freedom that is lost in Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Orwell based many aspects of Oceanian society on the Stalin-era Soviet Union. The "Two Minutes' Hate", for instance, being based on Stalinism's habitual demonization of their enemies and rivals, and Big Brother himself bears a resemblance to Stalin. The motif of "Two plus two make five" is taken directly from a Soviet propaganda poster during Stalin's industrialization drive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

Regardless, the things that go on in that book are far, far beyond anything we see in the US. People talk about slippery slopes, but we're in Hawaii and what people are afraid of is in the Marianes trench.
ksle82
#7
Jun27-06, 08:53 PM
P: 38
Quote Quote by russ_watters
I don't think we're anywhere close to "1984" and I think people misunderstand/misapply the analogy.
You're right. US is far from Orwellian 1984. But we're loosing little by little our free becuase of their 'war on terrorism". i would say the US in on its path to 1984 on a mini-mini-level.
Dragonfall
#8
Jun27-06, 09:53 PM
Dragonfall's Avatar
P: 995
Well, I don't know about you, but I read 1984 for nostalgic purposes.
SOS2008
#9
Jun28-06, 12:12 PM
PF Gold
SOS2008's Avatar
P: 1,554
To me the specific form of government (totalitarian vs. socialistic vs. democratic) or example (Stalin) for 1984 is not the point. But rather abuses that may result due to various variables. I think we can all agree that power corrupts. We can see this in the extreme in a county like Zimbabwe, and in more subtle ways here in the U.S. per recent scandals.

I feel the current administration's efforts to "catapult propaganda" and to conduct domestic surveillance are very similar to 1984. However, I agree with Helen Thomas that the current atmosphere in the U.S. is more like Nazi Germany during which the greatest loss of freedoms came from SILENCE.
Burnsys
#10
Jun29-06, 10:00 AM
P: 655
Foxnews introduces: Doublethink
http://physicsforums.com/showthread....OX+DOUBLESPEAK
Ronnin
#11
Jun29-06, 12:33 PM
P: 208
A saying always comes to mind when I hear topics like this come about. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty How much freedom are you willing to trade away for "order". One thing I can say about the possiblity of a 1984ish country is that technology has finally made this not only possible but relatively inexpensive to implement. The internet is perhaps our last bastion of true free speech so long as it doesn't become like China's version.
SOS2008
#12
Jun29-06, 01:21 PM
PF Gold
SOS2008's Avatar
P: 1,554
Quote Quote by Ronnin
A saying always comes to mind when I hear topics like this come about. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty How much freedom are you willing to trade away for "order". One thing I can say about the possiblity of a 1984ish country is that technology has finally made this not only possible but relatively inexpensive to implement. The internet is perhaps our last bastion of true free speech so long as it doesn't become like China's version.
You are right about technology being a big variable for a 1984 scenario. As for the Internet, it is under attack by the Republicans and big business. Vigilance is indeed eternal.
Skyhunter
#13
Jun29-06, 10:50 PM
P: 1,409
Quote Quote by Ronnin
The internet is perhaps our last bastion of true free speech so long as it doesn't become like China's version.
The internet is also a huge database. When they decide to take it.....they will have a very valuable database.

You have a powerful Executive. The Congress is amenable if not conspiratorial. Three solid votes on the Judicial, with an approval rating that hovers in the mid 30% range. All you need is a "Pearl Harbor like Event" and the support of the two judges you appointed and your in.

With control of the internet and unlimited access to anyones personal information, people can be categorized put into profiles and targeted. With totalitarian control, you can call them a terrorist, and they can disappear into a new Haliburton maximum security enemy combatant prison.

It all hinges on the two new guys on the SC. I think it really comes down to Roberts.

Didn't Roberts recuse himself from the case where Rummy tried to set up his own military tribunals?

Roberts, IMO has been a GOP opportunist. He is a very smart man. Now that he has risen to the top of his profession, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, he is the highest judge in the land. I hope that he is no longer looking for opportunity, but instead is focused on Justice and the Constitution. I sure don't like the odds,

Hope this doesn't make you any more paranoid.
Ivan Seeking
#14
Jun29-06, 11:46 PM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
Ivan Seeking's Avatar
P: 12,497
It would be interesting to see which most Americans think is most representitive of the American dream; the Constitution, or the flag. I would bet the latter. Perhaps not the Orwellian model, but IMO, BB is alive and well and growing up quickly; wrapped in the flag. And it didn't begin with 911. It has been happening for decades.
Bystander
#15
Jun30-06, 02:39 AM
Sci Advisor
HW Helper
PF Gold
P: 1,384
WW II internments Orwellian? Waco? "Sue?" Yeah.

NYT getting credentials pulled for couple weeks maybe months for compromising govt. secrets in time of war is Orwellian? Absurd, maybe, but hardly Orwellian --- Times Square would be dominated by a burnt out shell with bone filled gibbets hanging from the roof today had they blown "Ultra" 65 years ago.
Anttech
#16
Jun30-06, 03:51 AM
P: 1,401
Quote Quote by russ_watters
I don't think we're anywhere close to "1984" and I think people misunderstand/misapply the analogy. It is one of my favorite books because to me it speaks to the pitfalls of socialism. I realize he was in favor of democratic socialism, but it is the socialism part that leads to "1984", not the democracy part. Ie, he uses the USSR as his model, and the USSR used socialism to achieve totalitarianism. Perhaps he didn't even see the irony there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

Regardless, the things that go on in that book are far, far beyond anything we see in the US. People talk about slippery slopes, but we're in Hawaii and what people are afraid of is in the Marianes trench.
Russ, USSR was Communist, not socialist. Denmark is socialist, (for example) and last time I was there, the hardline position you are painting was nowhere near the truth of what it is actually like there. Perhaps Totaliltarianism is a better 'ism to describe 1984. Any political 'ism could lead to totaliltarianism, so to highlight Solcialism is a bit strange to me.

With control of the internet and unlimited access to anyones personal information, people can be categorized put into profiles and targeted. With totalitarian control, you can call them a terrorist, and they can disappear into a new Haliburton maximum security enemy combatant prison.
Nobody can "Control" the "internet" and take all the personal info. The percieved 'database' is held on million of computer spread across the whole world, so dont worry.

What can be controled is:

Access to the internet, in several forms. At a local loop level from your house to the telecom provider, and via DNS resolution, which is what China is trying to do. Also goverments could scan www sites (information) and block access to these sites as it find information is doesnt like, like in China also. So basically access to info can be controled, not the info itself.

There are ways round this anyway, mailling lists for example will continue. The way the internet is structured as an Openly documented, openly standarised, cross border, Phenomenon I truely cant see any one nation "taking control"..
Skyhunter
#17
Jun30-06, 07:57 AM
P: 1,409
Quote Quote by Anttech
There are ways round this anyway, mailling lists for example will continue. The way the internet is structured as an Openly documented, openly standarised, cross border, Phenomenon I truely cant see any one nation "taking control"..
Well thats a relief. Al Gore did a good job when he invented it.
edward
#18
Jun30-06, 02:35 PM
PF Gold
edward's Avatar
P: 875
All in all I would say that we are much closer to Orwells ,"dystopia" ,and the "big brother" scenarios than we were in 1948 when the book was written. Hell we are even much closer now than we were in the actual year 1984. This guy was way ahead of his time.

I see the dystopia and big brother balls rolling in our direction at an ever accelerating pace
We have taken a quantum leap towards totalitarianism in just in the last six years.

As for predicting events in the future Eisenhower was right on the money with his warnings about the Military Industrial complex. On the other hand, in 1999, who other than Dick Cheney and the big oil executives would have predicted that the USA would invade Iraq in 2003?

Actually Cheney and his gang were shooting for 2001 for the invasion of Iraq, but 911 interfered with their nasty little plot. Had the public had previous knowledge that the current administration had the invasion of Iraq high on their pre-election agenda Bush would not have won in 2000.

I mention this recent scenario because if anything, this was one of the the types of tactics that Orwell was predicting would be happening in the future. In that respect he was correct. The political parties and forms of government involved are irrelevant to the overall Orwellian concept of "dystopia' and "big brother".

edit: dystopia was Orwells antithesis of utopia. I think the concept was used in Blade Runner and several other books.
A brief synopsis of 1984 is at:
http://www.enotes.com/1984/


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Putnam 1984 B3 Calculus & Beyond Homework 3
Apple 1984 parody General Discussion 4
It is illegal to drive a pig over London bridge General Discussion 15
Your 1984* nightmare General Discussion 19
1984 General Discussion 11