Register to reply

Internal energy vs. Enthalpy vs. Entropy

by JSBeckton
Tags: energy, enthalpy, entropy, internal
Share this thread:
JSBeckton
#1
Sep28-06, 06:58 PM
P: 228
Ok, I must admit that I am becoming a bit confused about these concepts. I understand that enthalpy is u + Pv, and entropy has something to do with molecular randomness. I was fine until we started to solve for heat transfer when dealing with entropy and now I am confused, sometimes we use:

Q=m(u2-u1) to describe heat transfer

and other times we use:

Q=m(h2-h1)

Can anyone please explain to me how to tell which should be used where? I know that its a very important concept that i must have missed.

Thanks
Phys.Org News Partner Science news on Phys.org
Scientists discover RNA modifications in some unexpected places
Scientists discover tropical tree microbiome in Panama
'Squid skin' metamaterials project yields vivid color display
siddharth
#2
Sep29-06, 01:10 AM
HW Helper
PF Gold
siddharth's Avatar
P: 1,197
Let's start with the first law. It says the change in the internal energy [itex]\Delta U[/itex] is

[tex] \Delta U = Q + W [/tex]

Similarly the change in enthalpy is

[tex] \Delta H = \Delta U + \Delta (PV) [/tex]

From this, you can calculate the heat exchange for a constant volume process and a constant pressure process.

So for a
1) Constant volume process
The first law reduces to
[tex] \Delta U = Q[/tex]
So, the heat transfer will be [itex] Q =m(u_2-u_1)[/itex]

2) Constant pressure process
In this case, the first law is
[tex] \Delta U + P\Delta V = Q [/tex]
But, from the definition of enthalpy, you also have
[tex]\Delta H = \Delta U + P\Delta V [/tex]

So, can you complete this and figure out how you calculate Q in each case?

If you need to calculate Q for a general process, try calculating the change in internal energy and the work, then use the first law.
Finally, in some cases you may be able to calculate the heat transferred if you know the change in entropy. (For example, a reversible isothermal process)
JSBeckton
#3
Sep29-06, 12:14 PM
P: 228
Thanks a lot siddharth

[text]
\begin{array}{l}
Q = \Delta U + P\Delta V \\
{\rm where }\Delta H = U + P\Delta V \\
{\rm therefore }Q = \Delta H \\
\end{array}
[/text]

So, is it safe to say that I should use U for constant volume and H for constant pressure?

JSBeckton
#4
Sep29-06, 12:17 PM
P: 228
Internal energy vs. Enthalpy vs. Entropy

Sorry for the double post, cant figure out this text editor

Thanks a lot siddharth

Q=delta H

So would it be safe to say that i should use U for constant volume and H for constant pressure?
siddharth
#5
Sep30-06, 03:10 AM
HW Helper
PF Gold
siddharth's Avatar
P: 1,197
Quote Quote by JSBeckton
Sorry for the double post, cant figure out this text editor

Thanks a lot siddharth

Q=delta H

So would it be safe to say that i should use U for constant volume and H for constant pressure?
For an ideal gas, and ignoring changes in Kinetic energy and such, yes.
JSBeckton
#6
Sep30-06, 06:17 PM
P: 228
When I have a steam turbine I use enthalpy not internal energy even though its not a constant pressure process. I know that steam is not an ideal gas but how do I choose which to use?

Is this true?

Q-W=U2-U1
W=(U1-U2)+Q
W=(H1-H2)

But if its adaibatic Q=0 so,
W=(U1-U2)
siddharth
#7
Sep30-06, 10:13 PM
HW Helper
PF Gold
siddharth's Avatar
P: 1,197
Quote Quote by JSBeckton
When I have a steam turbine I use enthalpy not internal energy even though its not a constant pressure process. I know that steam is not an ideal gas but how do I choose which to use?

Is this true?

Q-W=U2-U1
W=(U1-U2)+Q
W=(H1-H2)

But if its adaibatic Q=0 so,
W=(U1-U2)
Whoops, my error. You can use it for a non-ideal gas, but the system should be closed.

For a steam turbine, you have a flow process in an open system. In that case, you'll have to use the first law for open systems.

[tex] \frac{dE}{dt} = \dot{Q} - \dot{W} + \sum_i \dot{m_i} h_i - \sum_j \dot{m_j} h_j[/tex]

You'll find how you get this in any thermodynamics book. It's different from the first case, which is for closed systems.


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Entropy and enthalpy Classical Physics 38
Internal energy and enthalpy General Physics 23
Entropy, Adiabatic Conditions and Internal Energy Introductory Physics Homework 0
About enthalpy and entropy Chemistry 2
Enthalpy and Entropy Chemistry 14