Cardinal Numbers and the Concept of Infinity in Mathematics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical concept of subtracting infinity from infinity, exploring its implications in various contexts such as cardinal numbers, limits, and the extended real line. Participants examine whether such operations can yield meaningful results and the conditions under which they might be defined.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether subtracting infinity from infinity results in zero or remains infinity, indicating a lack of clarity in the definitions used.
  • One participant asserts that subtracting infinity from infinity lacks mathematical meaning unless discussing limits or orders of magnitude.
  • Another participant suggests that while subtraction is problematic, addition of infinities can be defined in terms of cardinal numbers, providing examples involving the cardinalities of natural and real numbers.
  • It is noted that in the context of the extended real line, certain operations involving infinity are defined, but others, such as (+∞) - (+∞), are undefined.
  • A participant emphasizes that "infinity" should not be treated as a real number, which complicates operations like addition and subtraction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the mathematical treatment of infinity, particularly regarding subtraction. There is no consensus on whether subtracting infinity from infinity can yield meaningful results, and multiple competing perspectives remain on the definitions and contexts involved.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the ambiguity in the definitions of "infinity" and "subtraction" as well as the varying contexts (cardinal numbers, extended real line, hyperreal numbers) that influence the discussion.

Holocene
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Does subtracting infinity from infinity leave you with zero?

Or could you subtract infinity from infinity and still have infinity?
 
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Subtracting infinity from infinity has no mathematical meaning. Unless we are talking about limits and orders of magnitude.
 
Werg22 said:
Subtracting infinity from infinity has no mathematical meaning. Unless we are talking about limits and orders of magnitude.

You can't subtract but you can add infinity from infinity.

Let N be the natural numbers and R be the real numbers. And card(X) denote the cardinality of X.

card(R) + card(N) = card(R)
card(N) + card(N) = card(N)
 
Holocene said:
Does subtracting infinity from infinity leave you with zero?

Or could you subtract infinity from infinity and still have infinity?
What "infinity" are you talking about? What notion of subtraction are you talking about? Your question really cannot be answered unless these are specified. (Though we can guess at what you meant, in order to give an answer)

Some examples:
The extended real line contains two points "at infinity": +\infty and -\infty. The extended real line also comes with a notion of subtraction that's defined for most, but not all arguments. (+\infty) - (-\infty) = +\infty and (-\infty) - (+\infty) = -\infty, but (+\infty) - (+\infty) and (-\infty) - (-\infty) are undefined. (And any combination involving at least one finite number is defined)

In the cardinal numbers, there are lots of infinite cardinals. (literally, too many to count) Subtraction makes little sense for them, because if \alpha \leq \beta and \beta is infinite, then \alpha + \beta = \beta.

The hyperreal line contains many infinite and infinitessimal numbers, and in a certain sense, the hyperreals behave exactly like the reals. (e.g. you can subtract any hyperreal from any other hyperreal)
 
Last edited:
JasonRox said:
You can't subtract but you can add infinity from infinity.

Let N be the natural numbers and R be the real numbers. And card(X) denote the cardinality of X.

card(R) + card(N) = card(R)
card(N) + card(N) = card(N)
But, in order to do that, you have to be talking about "cardinal numbers", not the regular real numbers- which I'm pretty sure is what the OP was talking about. "Infinity", in any sense, is not a real number and so neither addition nor subtraction (nor, for that matter multiplication or division) is defined for "infinity".
 

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