What is the connection between the roots of a function and its derivative?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the roots of a function and its derivative, specifically using the example of the function f(x) = x*sin(3x/4). Participants explore the implications of the derivative's sign on the function's behavior, the relationship between the locations of the roots of the function and its derivative, and the conditions under which the derivative must have roots based on the original function's zeros.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a positive derivative indicates the function is increasing, while a negative derivative indicates it is decreasing.
  • Others suggest that to understand the relationship between the roots of f(x) and f'(x), one should apply the Mean Value Theorem or Rolle's Theorem.
  • One participant claims that if f(x) has two zeros, then f' must also have at least one zero in the interval between those zeros, based on the differentiability of f.
  • Another participant reiterates that the derivative must cross the x-axis at least once between two zeros of the original function, indicating a minimum or maximum point exists in that interval.
  • Several participants reference Rolle's Theorem to explain the necessity of a zero in the derivative when the original function has zeros at both ends of an interval.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the application of Rolle's Theorem and the implications of the derivative's sign, but there is some uncertainty regarding the specifics of the second question about the relative locations of the roots.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the continuity and differentiability of the function, which are critical to the application of the theorems mentioned. The exact nature of the roots and their locations remains unspecified.

Caldus
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Got some questions:

Say I have the function f(x) = x*sin(3x/4).

1. What is the relationship between the sign of f'(x) and the graph of f(x)?
2. What can be observed about the relative locations of the roots of f(x) and f'(x)?
3. If f has zeros at r1 and r2 and if f is differentiable on the interval [r1, r2], then f' must...?

I cannot for the life of me figure out any of these. For the first question, I'm guessing that f increases whenever f' is positive and f decreases when f' is negative?

Thanks for any assistance.
 
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Do you know what the meaning of the derivative is? That will answer the first question. For the second you will have to find the derivative and see for yourself. As for the third one... what does the function look like between r1 and r2? What must it have in that interval?
 
Your "guess" is correct for the first one since positive derivative means the tangent line has positive slope and negative derivative means the tangent line has negative slope.

For the second one, have a look at the Mean Value Theorem (or, more specifically, Rolle's theorem).
 
I think I know the last one now. If f(x) contains 2 zeros, then its derivative must contain 2 zeros as well, correct?

I still cannot figure out the second one though.
 
No...I think I know now. For the second and last one, it is based on the fact that the derivative function between two zeros of the original function must pass through the x-axis at least once if the original function is differentiable between those two zeros.
 
Caldus said:
No...I think I know now. For the second and last one, it is based on the fact that the derivative function between two zeros of the original function must pass through the x-axis at least once if the original function is differentiable between those two zeros.
That is a rather awkward way of putting it, but yes. What this means is that the derivative gets a value of 0 at least once, so that the original function has a minimum or maximum point in that interval.
 
Caldus said:
No...I think I know now. For the second and last one, it is based on the fact that the derivative function between two zeros of the original function must pass through the x-axis at least once if the original function is differentiable between those two zeros.

Basically, that is Rolle's theorem: if f is continuous on [a,b], differentiable on (a,b), f(a)= 0, and f(b)= 0, then for some c between a and b, f'(c)= 0.

That's a special case of the "mean value theorem": as long as f is continuous on [a,b] and differentiable on (a,b), then there exist a number c between a and b such that f'(c)= (f(b)-f(a))/(b-a).
 
HallsofIvy said:
Basically, that is Rolle's theorem: if f is continuous on [a,b], differentiable on (a,b), f(a)= 0, and f(b)= 0, then for some c between a and b, f'(c)= 0.

That's a special case of the "mean value theorem": as long as f is continuous on [a,b] and differentiable on (a,b), then there exist a number c between a and b such that f'(c)= (f(b)-f(a))/(b-a).

This MVT is a very obvious one... if there are two roots, at x = a, b, and the function is c.t.s on [a,b], then there must exist a point x = c, where f'(c) = 0.
 

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