End to Math & Music? 2^N vs 2^n Combinations

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the relationship between mathematics and music, particularly whether there is a potential end to new developments in either field. Participants examine the implications of combinatorial possibilities in both domains, with a focus on the mathematical concepts of completeness and the nature of axioms.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that if there are no new categories, the mathematical interrelatedness might decline, proposing that music could serve as a universal language with a finite number of combinations (2^n) compared to mathematics (2^N).
  • Another participant argues that mathematics cannot end, citing Gödel's theorem, which implies that there will always be true statements requiring new axioms for proof.
  • Some participants express confusion about the assumption that the number of musical components (n) is significantly less than the number of mathematical components (N), questioning the criteria used to define music.
  • There is a discussion about the possibility of a rudimentary system in mathematics where all truths can be listed and proven, but this becomes impossible when natural numbers are involved.
  • One participant speculates that mathematical progress could theoretically end if a complete set of laws were discovered, but acknowledges that this is unlikely.
  • Another participant clarifies that mathematics is built on axioms, and while some truths are unprovable within a given system, the process of adding axioms to prove new statements is ongoing, suggesting that mathematics cannot end.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the possibility of an end to mathematics, with some asserting it cannot end due to Gödel's theorem, while others speculate about the theoretical implications of discovering a complete set of laws. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the comparison between the potential limits of music and mathematics.

Contextual Notes

Participants express varying assumptions about the definitions of music and mathematics, and the implications of Gödel's theorem are discussed without full consensus on its interpretations. The discussion also touches on the nature of axioms and completeness in mathematical systems.

zankaon
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Assuming no new catagories, might further mathematical interrelatedness eventually decline? Perhaps another universal language might help - music. Is there an end to new music? For n components, one would have 2^n combinations. And for mathematics, for N components, one would have 2^N combinations. Since N>>>n, then 2^N>>2^n; thus one would have to assume the end to new music, before consideration of the end to new mathematics.
 
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Mathematics can not end, even in principle. There will always be true statements, the proof of which requiring new axioms (Godel).

Why do you assume n (music) <<< N (math) ? Are you strongly restricting what you call music ?
 
im not seeing how math can end.
 
thomasxc said:
im not seeing how math can end.
Well, think about a system which would be rudimentary enough that you can list and prove everything that is true about it. Such systems exist. But as soon as you have structures able to contain natural numbers, this becomes impossible : there are true statements that can not be proven within your system. You need to enlarge your system with new axioms to prove those true statements.
 
oh. okay. so, theoretically, mathematical progress could end if we found a set of basic...laws that could explain everything?i'll say its possible but not probable in the least.
 
thomasxc said:
mathematical progress could end if we found a set of basic...laws that could explain everything?
That's surely not what I meant to say.

Mathematics already have built in your set of laws : math are build out of axioms. Within those axioms, some things are true and some things are provable. There are true statements that are unprovable, in any given system which can contain natural numbers. My claim is, from this point which is Godel's theorem, that you will be able to prove those statements in a more elaborate system, by adding one or more axioms. This procedure never ends, so mathematics can not end.
 
ah. i see. iguess i was accidentally referring to progress in general. but i see what youre saying.
 

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