Solving for Generators in Abelian Groups with Multiple Relations

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around solving for generators in Abelian groups that are defined by multiple relations. Participants explore the implications of linear independence among the defining relations and how this affects the representation of the group as a direct sum of cyclic groups.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about solving for generators when the defining relations are not linearly independent, suggesting that they are left with everything in terms of one generator.
  • Another participant points out that the context is missing and provides an example of relations that demonstrate the group is equivalent to a direct product of cyclic groups, highlighting the lack of linear independence.
  • A third participant cautions against mixing additive and multiplicative notation in the discussion.
  • A later reply critiques the initial example as nonsensical, arguing that too many relations lead to a trivial group, and explains the general method for determining the structure of the group using linear maps and cokernels.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the implications of the relations on the structure of the group. There is no consensus on how to approach the problem of non-linearly independent relations, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the implications of linear independence in defining relations and the resulting structure of the group, but there are limitations in the clarity of examples and definitions used, which may affect understanding.

Nexus[Free-DC]
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Okay, I'm really scratching my head here.

If an Abelian group A has three generators x,y,z and they are subject to three defining relations, say something like

x+y+z=0
x-y-z=0
2x-2y+3z=0

then I can solve for x,y,z and find A as a direct sum of cyclic groups, Z_x + Z_y + Z_z.

But what do I do if the three equations are not linearly independent? I get left with everything in terms of x and I can't just plug in the numbers.

Thanks,
N.
 
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I don't understand

There's some context missing:

Let's say you've got generators [tex]\{x,y,z\}[/tex] and the relations:
[tex]xy=yx[/tex]
[tex]yz=zy[/tex]
and
[tex]zx=xz[/tex]
Which are equivalent to the claim that the group is abelian.

Now we add the following relations:
[tex]0=0[/tex]

So at this point, this group is equivalent to [tex]\mathbb{Z} \times \mathbb{Z} \times \mathbb{Z}[/tex] and the system of defining relations is clearly not linearly independent.
 
you probably oughtn't to confuse additive and multiplicative notation in the same thread
 
nexus, you are talking about a representation of your abelian group as a cokernel of a map which is not necessarily injective.

by the way your example is non sense as your groupo as described is zero.

i.e. you gave so many relations that everything was trivial.

In general if you have n generators, that emans you map a direct sum of n copies of Z onto the group. then telling what say r relations are, is giving a generating set for the kernel of that map, hence it let's you map another direct sum of r copies of Z onto the kernel.


So now you have a linear map from r copies of Z, to n copies of Z, given by a matrix of integers. and your group is the cokernel of this map.

To get the explicit structure of the group, you just diagonalize the matrix using row and column operations. Then you can easily see the group structure, as the quotient of the direct sums then becoems the direct sum of the quotients of the diagonal maps, i.e. one dimensional maps.

this is the usual proof of the structure theorem for finitely generated abelian groups.
 

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