Question about english language.

**archis** · Oct21-09, 09:53 AM

There are few points about english language i do not like. Why in english (also in many other languages) you do not write the same as you speak? Why people make things difficult? I noticed that in USA schools make some spelling champoinships. Vel in mai kauntri stjudents vuld fait forever bekoz vi spik az vi vrait.

**arildno** · Oct21-09, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by archis

There are few points about english language i do not like. Why in english (also in many other languages) you do not write the same as you speak? Why people make things difficult? I noticed that in USA schools make some spelling champoinships. Vel in mai kauntri stjudents vuld fait forever bekoz vi spik az vi vrait.

No, you don't. Even in your country (unless you are from San Marino, Liechtenstein or some other tiny country), you have DIALECTS, and not all of those are represented in your written language. Besides, you censor yourself in writing by rooting out a variaty of grammatical and syntactical mistakes.
You do NOT "write as you speak"!

An official written language is meant to be a COMMON medium, and by agreeing on certain rules to be effective, it becomes much easier for others to understand what you are saying.

This is not as necessary when speaking, because you can always backtrack, use body language etc. in order to clarify what you meant.

**archis** · Oct22-09, 04:30 AM

arildno, I did'nt understand your post.
We have dialects. If someone is speaking word differently, then it is also written differently.
The question is why do you write ''cat'', but say ''ket''?

**pixel01** · Oct22-09, 06:23 AM

Talking about the difference between writing and speaking, I think Chinese is the champion.

**Jobrag** · Oct22-09, 06:37 AM

Vel in mai kauntri stjudents vuld fait forever bekoz vi spik az vi vrait.
But in mi cuntry stewdentz wud wayt forever beecuz wee speek as wee rite.
Your phonetics are quite different to my phonetics.
Besides English language crosswords would not be nearly so subtle and annoying using newspeak.

**archis** · Oct22-09, 07:34 AM

At least I see some logic in your phonetics although it is different from mine.

**Econrocks** · Oct22-09, 07:16 PM

it may also have to do with the fact that pronunciation and other aspects of the spoken language change at a much faster rate than the written aspects of a language. also, as mentioned, dialects are spoken differently, but spelled the same, to allow people who speak the same language to communicate easier.

**russ_watters** · Oct22-09, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by archis

arildno, I did'nt understand your post.
We have dialects. If someone is speaking word differently, then it is also written differently.
The question is why do you write ''cat'', but say ''ket''?

Because it would be difficult/combersome and pointless to write a textbook for every dialect.

**lisab** · Oct22-09, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by russ_watters

Because it would be difficult/combersome and pointless to write a textbook for every dialect.

True. Reading is much slower when the text is written in "dialect". Some of the posts in this thread were written in "how I talk" style, and I struggled through them, very slowly.

Yet, like most native speakers, I can read standard English faster than I can speak it, as can a Scottish person...though I (a Western US dialect English speaker) can't understand the spoken Scottish dialect without a lot of effort.

So having a standardized written language helps to smooth written communication between people who speak different dialects.

**Evo** · Oct22-09, 11:28 PM

A mentor here, Kurdt lives in an area of Northern England where a special ancient dialect called "Geordie" is spoken. Unfortunately, he went to private schools so wasn't subjected to the dialect and can barely speak it.

The Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms that emerged during the Dark Ages spoke a mutually intelligible Old English, though each would have varied in dialect. Thus, in northern England, dominated by the Kingdom of Northumbria, was found a distinct 'Northumbrian' Old English dialect. Old English, or Anglo-Saxon, is the forebear of Modern English; but while the modern dialects of most other English regions have been much changed by the influences of other foreign languages, Norman-French and Norse in particular, the modern dialects of Northern England (including Geordie), remain closer to the sounds and words of the 'Northumbrian' Anglo-Saxon dialect, thus featuring many characteristics of Old English lost in Standard English.[

Due to the area being closed off to much immigration, the old English language was preserved within this geographic pocket.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geordie

**symbolipoint** · Oct22-09, 11:56 PM

A mentor here, Kurdt lives in an area of Northern England where a special ancient dialect called "Geordie" is spoken. Unfortunately, he went to private schools so wasn't subjected to the dialect and can barely speak it.

The Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms that emerged during the Dark Ages spoke a mutually intelligible Old English, though each would have varied in dialect. Thus, in northern England, dominated by the Kingdom of Northumbria, was found a distinct 'Northumbrian' Old English dialect. Old English, or Anglo-Saxon, is the forebear of Modern English; but while the modern dialects of most other English regions have been much changed by the influences of other foreign languages, Norman-French and Norse in particular, the modern dialects of Northern England (including Geordie), remain closer to the sounds and words of the 'Northumbrian' Anglo-Saxon dialect, thus featuring many characteristics of Old English lost in Standard English.[

Due to the area being closed off to much immigration, the old English language was preserved within this geographic pocket.

Evo, do you REALLY mean that? Old English is preserved there? How authentic or valid?

**SW VandeCarr** · Oct27-09, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by archis

There are few points about english language i do not like. Why in english (also in many other languages) you do not write the same as you speak? Why people make things difficult? I noticed that in USA schools make some spelling champoinships. Vel in mai kauntri stjudents vuld fait forever bekoz vi spik az vi vrait.

I think your question is why aren't written languages more phonetic, at least in terms of the standard dialect. In fact there are a number of reasonably phonetic written languages: German, Spanish, Italian, Russian for example. French is not phonetic since there are a lot of silent letters and silent whole (usually terminal) syllables. For example parle, parles, parlent and parler, and parlaient are all pronounced PARL. There is certain consistency to French spelling so that with practice, you can learn how pronounce words from their spelling.

English is the real outlier here: bite (BYT) but tight (TYT), seat (SEET), beat (BEET), but feet (FEET) (which is the plural of foot, not 'feets', but that's a grammatical irregularity). However foot is pronounced like soot but not like boot or toot or root. Spelling-phonetic irregularities in English could fill a book and the reasons why, another book (book like foot, but not like loot and certainly not good). It mostly has to 'due' with the diverse sources of the English vocabulary and the fact that for centuries, English spelling wazn't standardized.

http://www.spellingsociety.org/aboutsss/johnson1.php

**archis** · Oct28-09, 12:31 PM

Nice replay SW VandeCarr. Still can't fully understand why other could find a way to make their language phonetic but others didn't. I learned French too and it's spelling is even crazier. I just couldn't pronounce what was in the book.

There is another thing that troubles me about English language very much. I can't often understand what people are in movies and songs saying. Often i can't even pronounce the word I heard in song. I know 4 languages (Latvian is my mother language) and such problem is only in this language. The words in English are so ''soft'', ''foggy'' and are horribly rhyming (like learn and earn, please and police, etc.). For me German is the opposite side of this problem. It is hard accent, clear word endings, I could say it is pedantic. Funny thing is, I better understand English form a person who speaks English with some accent.

I just listen for few songs. In the song ''The Doors-Riders on the storm'' I swear, that I hear text ''...if you give this man a ride sweat family will die. ...'' I look up the lyrics and I see there is no ''family'', but it is ''memory''. What do you hear? It happens to me all the time. I like Kate Bush songs very much. And it is a big pity for me to know, what beautiful lyrics her songs have, only by reading the lyrics.

**SW VandeCarr** · Oct28-09, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by archis

Still can't fully understand why other could find a way to make their language phonetic but others didn't. I learned French too and it's spelling is even crazier. I just couldn't pronounce what was in the book.

I still haven't mastered English even though I've been using it every day for a long time. If it wasn't for spell check, I'd be lost. I think most languages that use a phonetic alphabet (as opposed to ideographic like Mandarin) are probably reasonably phonetic. By that, I mean you can read a word and be reasonably confident you can pronounce it. German, Spanish and Italian all have this quality. Russian is phonetic, but you have to learn where to place the accent. I understand written Arabic is phonetic for the classical dialect used in the Quran, but not for the many modern dialects.

I agree that English is a "soft" language. When spoken rapidly or when syllables are altered slightly as in songs, it's hard to discriminate words and syllables. Vowels are particularly weak and varying as I tried to demonstrate. In Spanish and Italian, vowels are strong and distinct without the subtle modifications that French and English have. German is a "hard" language with distinct syllables (IMHO). It's a very good language for communicating displeasure as in Verstehen Sie?.

However, the rich English vocabulary, flexibility of construction and the analytic grammar make it ideal for expressing shades of meaning and more complicated ideas and concepts (IMHO).

EDIT: I'm not surprised you find the English of non-native speakers easier to understand. That's true for me also. That's not uncommon. Native speakers have acquired many habits of speech that the non-native speaker can only learn by living in a particular locale for some time.

**Galteeth** · Oct28-09, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by SW VandeCarr

I still haven't mastered English even though I've been using it every day for a long time. If it wasn't for spell check, I'd be lost. I think most languages that use a phonetic alphabet (as opposed to ideographic like Mandarin) are probably reasonably phonetic. By that, I mean you can read a word and be reasonably confident you can pronounce it. German, Spanish and Italian all have this quality. Russian is phonetic, but you have to learn where to place the accent. I understand written Arabic is phonetic for the classical dialect used in the Quran, but not for the many modern dialects.

I agree that English is a "soft" language. When spoken rapidly or when syllables are altered slightly as in songs, it's hard to discriminate words and syllables. Vowels are particularly weak and varying as I tried to demonstrate. In Spanish and Italian, vowels are strong and distinct without the subtle modifications that French and English have. German is a "hard" language with distinct syllables (IMHO). It's a very good language for communicating displeasure as in Verstehen Sie?.

However, the rich English vocabulary, flexibility of construction and the analytic grammar make it ideal for expressing shades of meaning and more complicated ideas and concepts (IMHO).

EDIT: I'm not surprised you find the English of non-native speakers easier to understand. That's true for me also. That's not uncommon. Native speakers have acquired many habits of speech that the non-native speaker can only learn by living in a particular locale for some time.

English is known for its ability to assimilate new words into itself and for its flexibility. As SW pointed out, this makes it good for conveying shades of meaning. It also has a complex history, being originally a germanic language that was influenced by some druidic, the latin of the roman empire and the catholic church, and then the the Norman french. It has also been largely since developed in the cultural melting pot of America.

I could be wrong, but I think the more phoenetic languages you are referring to have a more restricted capacity for word and concept absorbtion.

**archis** · Oct29-09, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by Galteeth

I could be wrong, but I think the more phoenetic languages you are referring to have a more restricted capacity for word and concept absorbtion.

However, the rich English vocabulary, flexibility of construction and the analytic grammar make it ideal for expressing shades of meaning and more complicated ideas and concepts (IMHO).

Yes, that's the plus of English. Compered to my language (Latvian) it has far more words and to express yourself. Another big pluses of English it is easy to learn and the words are like therms. I can easily find info in google. But in Latvian I have this problem in witch form should I write the words to find info. Nouns decline into seven cases: nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, instrumental, locative, and vocative. This is a headache. I could say English is more masculine, but Latvian (Balto-Slavic languages) more feminine language. English words are like therms, but Latvian words can be changed in pronunciation to describe feelings, situations.