Deceptively Difficult Physics Integration Problem (Restorative Forces)?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a physics integration problem involving a particle of mass m released from rest under the influence of a force that follows an inverse square law. Participants explore the mathematical steps required to derive the time taken for the particle to reach the origin, including various hints and integration techniques.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the initial problem and expresses uncertainty about the integrals involved, specifically the hints provided for solving the problem.
  • Another participant derives the relationship between velocity and position, suggesting that the integration can be approached using the equation for acceleration and the inverse square law.
  • A different participant simplifies the expression for dx/dt and discusses the integration process, including a substitution involving trigonometric functions.
  • Some participants question the limits of integration and the order of terms in the equations, indicating potential confusion regarding the initial and final conditions of the integration.
  • There is a back-and-forth regarding the interpretation of the integration limits and whether they should reflect the initial and final states of the system.
  • Participants clarify their reasoning and steps, but some still express uncertainty about the integration process and the correctness of their approaches.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally engage in a collaborative exploration of the problem, but there are disagreements regarding the correct limits of integration and the interpretation of the equations. The discussion remains unresolved as different viewpoints and interpretations are presented.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about their mathematical skills and the integration techniques required, indicating that the discussion may involve assumptions about participants' familiarity with calculus and physics concepts.

cj
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The following seemed simple enough to me . . . I'm somewhat sure about the requisite physics, but shakey on the integrals:

A particle of mass m is released from rest a distance b from a fixed origin of force that attracts a particle according to the inverse square law:

F(x) = -kx-2

Show that the time required for the particle to reach the origin is:

π(mb3/8k)1/2


And then I reviewed the hints provided by the author -- the very first of which completely stumped me. My rusty calc skills not withstanding, how is the following hint true:

Show that dx/dt = -(2k/m)1/2 · (1/x - 1/b)1/2
the negative sign results from the physical situation


the subsequent hint is also a mystery to me:

Show that t = sqrt(mb3/2k) · ∫sqrt[y/(1-y)]dy
where y = x/b (evaluated from 1 to 0)


the 3rd hint is likewise elusive to me:

Show that setting y=sin2θ results in t = sqrt(mb3/2k) · ∫2sin2θdθ (evaluated from π/2 to 0)

let alone the final result of π(mb3/8k)
 
Last edited:
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[tex]F(x) = -kx^{-2}[/tex]

[tex]ma = -kx^{-2}[/tex]

[tex]dv/dt = -(k/m)x^{-2}[/tex]

[tex](dv/dx)(dx/dt) = -(k/m)x^{-2}[/tex]

[tex]vdv = -(k/m)x^{-2}dx[/tex]

[tex]\frac{v(t)^2}{2} = \frac{k}{m} \left (\frac{1}{x(t)} - \frac{1}{b} \right )[/tex]

I believe you can figure out the first hint from here. Note that the integration was done from time=0 to time=t. Given what you have, see if you can work with it to get the second hint.
 
Actually, it's quite simple:

[tex]dx/dt = -(2k/m)^{1/2}(1/x - 1/b)^{1/2}[/tex]

[tex](1/x - 1/b)^{-1/2}dx = -(2k/m)^{1/2}dt[/tex]

[tex]\left ( \frac{bx}{b-x} \right ) ^{1/2}dx = -(2k/m)^{1/2}dt[/tex]

[tex]\sqrt {\frac{y}{1-y}}dy = -(2k/mb^3)^{1/2}dt[/tex]

Now, integrate from [itex]t=0[/itex] to [itex]t=t_f[/itex]. You know that [itex]y(t_f) = x(t_f)/b = 0/b = 0[/itex] and [itex]y(0) = x(0)/b = b/b = 1[/itex]. So, you'll have:

[tex]\int _1 ^0 \sqrt{\frac{y}{1-y}}dy = -\sqrt{(2k/mb^3)}t_f[/tex]

The rest should be pretty simple, unless you're just rusty on the calculus. They're suggesting a substitution: y = sin²[itex]\theta[/itex].

[tex]\int _1 ^0 \sqrt{\frac{y}{1-y}}dy[/tex]

[tex]= \int _{\pi /2} ^0 \sqrt{\frac{\sin ^2 \theta}{1 - \sin ^2 \theta}}(2\sin \theta \cos \theta d\theta )[/tex]

[tex]= 2\int _{\pi /2} ^0 \sqrt{\frac{\sin ^2 \theta}{\cos ^2 \theta}} \sin \theta \cos \theta d\theta[/tex]

[tex]= 2\int _{\pi /2} ^0 \frac{\sin \theta}{\cos \theta} \sin \theta \cos \theta d\theta[/tex]

[tex]= 2\int _{\pi /2} ^0 \sin ^2 \theta d\theta[/tex]

[tex]= \int _{\pi /2} ^0 1 - \cos (2\theta ) d\theta[/tex]

[tex]= \theta - \frac{1}{2}\sin (2\theta )[/tex]

[tex]= (-\pi /2)[/tex]

EDIT: no, this looks fine. This is the integral on the left side. Now isolate [itex]t_f[/itex] and you're done.
 
Last edited:
Deceptively Difficult Physics Integration Problem (Restorative Forces)? Reply to T

Thanks very much -- this is quite helpful.

However (with regard to the last line in your
post below), if you integrate from t = 0 to t = t
is the order not (1/b - 1/x) as opposed to (1x - 1/b)??

Thanks!


AKG said:
[tex]F(x) = -kx^{-2}[/tex]

[tex]ma = -kx^{-2}[/tex]

[tex]dv/dt = -(k/m)x^{-2}[/tex]

[tex](dv/dx)(dx/dt) = -(k/m)x^{-2}[/tex]

[tex]vdv = -(k/m)x^{-2}dx[/tex]

[tex]\frac{v(t)^2}{2} = \frac{k}{m} \left (\frac{1}{x(t)} - \frac{1}{b} \right )[/tex]

I believe you can figure out the first hint from here. Note that the integration was done from time=0 to time=t. Given what you have, see if you can work with it to get the second hint.
 
cj

The second last line of what you quoted was:

[tex]vdv = -(k/m)x^{-2}dx[/tex]

Now, showing all my steps:

[tex]\int _{v(0)} ^{v(t)} vdv = \int _{x(0)} ^{x(t)} -(k/m)x^{-2}dx[/tex]

[tex]\int _0 ^{v(t)} vdv = (k/m) \int _b ^{x(t)} -x^{-2}dx[/tex]

[tex]\frac{v^2}{2}|_{0}^{v(t)} = (k/m)(1/x)|_{b} ^{x(t)}[/tex]

[tex]\frac{v(t)^2}{2} = (k/m)\left (\frac{1}{x(t)} - \frac{1}{b} \right )[/tex]

And the last line was:

[tex]\frac{v(t)^2}{2} = \frac{k}{m} \left (\frac{1}{x(t)} - \frac{1}{b} \right )[/tex]

There's no difference between the last two lines here, just changed a [itex](k/m)[/itex] to a [itex]\frac{k}{m}[/itex].
 
I certainly understand your reasoning -- thanks again.

What is still perplexing me is that, since the initial conditions have the
object located at x=b, shouldn't -- technically -- the interval be taken as:

[tex]\frac{v^2}{2}|_{v(t)}^{(0)} = (k/m)(1/x)|_{x(t)} ^{(b)}[/tex]

rather than:

[tex]\frac{v^2}{2}|_{0}^{v(t)} = (k/m)(1/x)|_{b} ^{x(t)}[/tex]


??

AKG said:
cj

The second last line of what you quoted was:

[tex]vdv = -(k/m)x^{-2}dx[/tex]

Now, showing all my steps:

[tex]\int _{v(0)} ^{v(t)} vdv = \int _{x(0)} ^{x(t)} -(k/m)x^{-2}dx[/tex]

[tex]\int _0 ^{v(t)} vdv = (k/m) \int _b ^{x(t)} -x^{-2}dx[/tex]

[tex]\frac{v^2}{2}|_{0}^{v(t)} = (k/m)(1/x)|_{b} ^{x(t)}[/tex]

[tex]\frac{v(t)^2}{2} = (k/m)\left (\frac{1}{x(t)} - \frac{1}{b} \right )[/tex]

And the last line was:

[tex]\frac{v(t)^2}{2} = \frac{k}{m} \left (\frac{1}{x(t)} - \frac{1}{b} \right )[/tex]

There's no difference between the last two lines here, just changed a [itex](k/m)[/itex] to a [itex]\frac{k}{m}[/itex].
 
There's no difference:

[tex]\frac{v^2}{2}|_{v(t)}^{(0)} = (k/m)(1/x)|_{x(t)} ^{(b)}[/tex]

[tex]\frac{0^2}{2} - \frac{v(t)^2}{2} = (k/m)[1/b - 1/x(t)][/tex]

[tex]-\frac{v(t)^2}{2} = (k/m)[1/b - 1/x(t)][/tex]

[tex]\frac{v(t)^2}{2} = (k/m)[1/x(t) - 1/b][/tex]

Work out this one, and you'll see it's the same:

[tex]\frac{v^2}{2}|_{0}^{v(t)} = (k/m)(1/x)|_{b} ^{x(t)}[/tex]
 
Got it -- thanks for answering this, as well as all my
other questions.

I was thinking there was a convention that said
something like the integration interval should
be taken as from the final or "end" state to the
initial state.

Again, thanks for all your answers!
 

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