Register to reply

Fan in vacuum

by amey_naik2812
Tags: vacuum
Share this thread:
amey_naik2812
#1
Oct22-10, 12:34 PM
P: 8
if a fan with a battery is placed in space outside earth and if it is switched on.....
then what will happen????
will the fan go ahead, behind or will it remain at the same position????
Phys.Org News Partner Physics news on Phys.org
Physicists discuss quantum pigeonhole principle
First in-situ images of void collapse in explosives
The first supercomputer simulations of 'spin?orbit' forces between neutrons and protons in an atomic nucleus
Jack21222
#2
Oct22-10, 12:47 PM
P: 772
I'm curious as to what your intuition tells you. What do you think will happen, and why?

Also, what do you think makes propellers move on Earth?
Pengwuino
#3
Oct22-10, 12:50 PM
PF Gold
Pengwuino's Avatar
P: 7,120
What makes a fan spin? If just put some fan blades on a pole in still air, do you think they'd move? Why do fans need electricity?

amey_naik2812
#4
Oct22-10, 12:55 PM
P: 8
Fan in vacuum

i agree that the fan wont move on the pole, but if u switch it on then wind will be generated....
wat do u say????
Pengwuino
#5
Oct22-10, 12:58 PM
PF Gold
Pengwuino's Avatar
P: 7,120
Sure, if there is air around the fan, the fan will push the air around.

If you're in space where there is no air, the fan will spin, but there's no air to be pushed around.
amey_naik2812
#6
Oct22-10, 12:58 PM
P: 8
@jack.... its just a question with popped in my head....
but my intuition says it will move...
dnt know why..
amey_naik2812
#7
Oct22-10, 01:00 PM
P: 8
@pengwuino
but my question is will the fan move or remain at the same position???
Jack21222
#8
Oct22-10, 01:09 PM
P: 772
Things only move if there is a force acting on it. What force would be acting on the fan in space? What force acts on the fan on Earth?
amey_naik2812
#9
Oct22-10, 01:16 PM
P: 8
wont the rotation of the blades of the fan create a force which might push the fan backwards...
newtons law TO EVERY ACTION THERE IS AN EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION...
texasblitzem
#10
Oct22-10, 01:30 PM
P: 38
I'd like to chime in on this if no one minds. I think the fan blades will spin and the base will slowly start to spin in the same direction as the blades, just like a helicopter would if it did not have the tail rotor to counteract the rotation of the main rotor. But now I have a question, if the above is true.
Say the battery lasts forever, would the base start to catch up in speed to the fan blades? It seems the blades always have to go faster than the base, or else you'd end up with a spinning object in space. How fast would the base spin relative to the blades?
Or is my post nonsense? = )
Jack21222
#11
Oct22-10, 01:36 PM
P: 772
The rotation of the blades would pull the center of the fan along in the direction of motion.

However, the blades go around in a circle, and we're assuming a symmetrical fan. For example, when the top blade is moving right, the bottom blade is moving left. When the right blade is moving down, the left blade is moving up. NONE of the blades is moving along the axis of rotation (which is what you mean by forward).

The forces associated with the fan blades moving cancel out.

Now, if you had an unbalanced fan, with, say, three blades on one side and none on the other, the fan would probably wobble around a little, but still wouldn't "go forward."
Borek
#12
Oct22-10, 01:57 PM
Admin
Borek's Avatar
P: 23,370
Quote Quote by texasblitzem View Post
I think the fan blades will spin and the base will slowly start to spin in the same direction as the blades
Same or opposite?
Pengwuino
#13
Oct22-10, 07:41 PM
PF Gold
Pengwuino's Avatar
P: 7,120
Quote Quote by amey_naik2812 View Post
wont the rotation of the blades of the fan create a force which might push the fan backwards...
newtons law TO EVERY ACTION THERE IS AN EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION...
Yes but there is no air to push against so there's no force in the first place so the "equal and opposite" force wouldn't exist either.

However, as someone has pointed out, if the fan blades rotate, the rest of the fan will rotate as well, in the opposite direction to conserve angular momentum. So if you started up the fan in space, the fans would start going lets say, counter-clockwise, and the base of the fan would start turning clockwise. However there would be no movement of the system as a whole.
amey_naik2812
#14
Oct23-10, 12:07 AM
P: 8
i would like to give an example....
take a torpedo and a missile into consideration, which are to move and hit a target underwater. Both work on the principle of action and reaction. Missile uses the force generated my compressed air while the torpedo has a fan at the back to push it forward...
correct me if i m wrong.
and if the space craft which burns the fuel to propel itself forward then why cant fan move or if the fan is attached to an object then wont the object move?????
its just that the medium has changed for torpedo and missile the medium was water but for the space craft and the fan the medium is vacuum....
now the argument is that vacuum is nothing so there is nothing to push against and if that is the case then how come space ships move according to the principle of action and reaction??
Jack21222
#15
Oct23-10, 12:13 AM
P: 772
Quote Quote by amey_naik2812 View Post
i would like to give an example....
take a torpedo and a missile into consideration, which are to move and hit a target underwater. Both work on the principle of action and reaction. Missile uses the force generated my compressed air while the torpedo has a fan at the back to push it forward...
correct me if i m wrong.
and if the space craft which burns the fuel to propel itself forward then why cant fan move or if the fan is attached to an object then wont the object move?????
its just that the medium has changed for torpedo and missile the medium was water but for the space craft and the fan the medium is vacuum....
now the argument is that vacuum is nothing so there is nothing to push against and if that is the case then how come space ships move according to the principle of action and reaction??
Rocket boosters in space don't work by pushing air out of the way. It works by "equal and opposite reaction."

Propellers (or fans) work by pushing air of the way. There is no air in space to push out of the way.

Surely you can see that rockets are actually firing particles out of the back end, while a fan in a vacuum fires out no particles.
amey_naik2812
#16
Oct23-10, 12:19 AM
P: 8
jack please elaborate:)
Jack21222
#17
Oct23-10, 12:22 AM
P: 772
Quote Quote by amey_naik2812 View Post
jack please elaborate:)
Look at a rocket. You see particles flying out of the back. They propel the rocket forward even in a vacuum.

Look at a fan in a vacuum. There are no particles!

I don't see how I can make it any more clear.
Pengwuino
#18
Oct23-10, 12:26 AM
PF Gold
Pengwuino's Avatar
P: 7,120
As Jack said, a missiles propulsion is coming from a controlled explosion. You have a chemical reaction that sends molecules flying away from each in opposite directions. Half the molecules in general fly out one end. The other end fly into the rocket, providing a push in a sense (don't quote me on that being exactly what it does but the basic idea is that the propulsion is due to reactions of chemicals already on the rocket). This is with no input coming from the atmosphere surrounding the rocket (except the oxidizer on a solid rocket i believe?). In fact, being in an atmosphere, if I recall, actually reduces the effectiveness of rockets a little, though again don't quote me on that.

A torpedo needs to push on something. It doesn't have its own supply of molecules to shoot out the opposite direction of where it wants to go. A rocket does.

Which makes me wonder if solid rockets work in space considering I believe they use oxygen in the atmosphere as an oxidizer.

EDIT: Ok so as I suspected, the solid rockets propellant has an oxidizer in it. Thus, the atmosphere a solid rocket is in is irrelevant, air or vacuum. Thank you Google.


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Einstein Vacuum Equation, Vacuum Constraint Equations Special & General Relativity 2
Question about vacuum and vacuum meter General Physics 1
Do vacuum fluctuations contribute to vacuum polarization High Energy, Nuclear, Particle Physics 2
Vacuum to Vacuum Amplitudes and Functional Integrals Quantum Physics 9