More Swift lies: No shot too low, no lie too great, no honor

[Ivan Seeking]

The Swift Boat crowd is running a new commercial in Oregon. A woman actually accuses Kerry of giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

These people are a joke! They can hide behind all of the flags they want but it won't change the fact of what they are - liars. They are certainly not friends of this nation.

Our Portland Oregon Swift liar - the one who really only heard from others what he said he saw - was just suspended from his job.

 

[wasteofo2]

Woah, they're still out there? I've been watching Fox News and haven't even heard of that new commercial. I think it's fair to say everyone, even Fox News, is over those guys by now and is ready to talk about the future and present.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I would hope! I can't believe what I'm seeing here. This was aired on our local NBC affiliate.

 

[wasteofo2]

I would hope! I can't believe what I'm seeing here. This was aired on our local NBC affiliate.

Christ, 1 month until election day and people are still throwing this sh*t around. I was apparently wrong, John O'neil was on Hannity and Colmes today, Hannity and Limbaugh just will not give up on this stuff, they were scared sh*tless that there might actually be a debate about the issues, and it appears those were rational fears for their interests.

 

[russ_watters]

Ivan, I don't see the problem. Do we really need to compare the SBV rhetoric to MoveOn.org's rhetoric?

Regarding calling someone who reports second-hand information as first-hand information a liar: Kerry did the same thing when he spoke against Vietnam.

Don't think for a minute one side has the high ground in the battle for B.S.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I wasn't comparing anything.

Could you provide his testimony to Congress? Have you read it? Are you repeating things that you have only heard?

As for the high ground, there absolutely is a difference. Apparently you can't tell the difference but I can.

 

[wasteofo2]

Ivan, I don't see the problem. Do we really need to compare the SBV rhetoric to MoveOn.org's rhetoric?

Regarding calling someone who reports second-hand information as first-hand information a liar: Kerry did the same thing when he spoke against Vietnam.

Don't think for a minute one side has the high ground in the battle for B.S.

Move On makes ads about Bush's actual failures; loss of jobs, horirble environmental plan, deteriorating situation in Iraq, etc. It's real different than just making up crap that goes against the actual navy records that the Swift Boat Liars do.

Kerry didn't give second hand info as first hand info, he prefaced that second hand information by saying that it was what he was told by other soldiers.

 

[kat]

It's real different than just making up crap that goes against the actual navy records that the Swift Boat Liars do.

I think that's part of the SVB for Truth's point...Kerry made up SOME of the crap that went into SOME of the naval records.

Kerry didn't give second hand info as first hand info, he prefaced that second hand information by saying that it was what he was told by other soldiers.

Hmmm I suppose you're talking about the senate speech which I think you may be missing a few relevant quotes...but what about the FBI files...

 

[selfAdjoint]

I think that's part of the SVB for Truth's point...Kerry made up SOME of the crap that went into SOME of the naval records.

And the next piece of evidence for that they adduce will be the first one.

 

[russ_watters]

I wasn't comparing anything.

I know! That's the whole problem! You're only looking at half of the story.

Listen to Rush Limbaugh and all you'll hear is rhetoric-based dissection of Kerry. Listen to Moore or Al Frankin and you'll hear rhetoric-based dissection of Bush. Limbaugh talks about how awful MoveOn.org is while Al Frankin talks about how awful the SBV are. My point is that strong supporters of either side only listen to half the rhetoric and pretend the other half doesn't exist.

Could you provide his testimony to Congress? Have you read it? Are you repeating things that you have only heard?

http://www.luxeword.com/exp/index.php/weblog/unexpected_result_of_the_presidential_election_some_repudiation_by_america/ is some info. He does admit that his testimony is all based on hearsay, but giving the testimony means he's responsible for it. The part that is not hearsay though is this:

These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

That's his conclusion based on all that hearsay.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Quotes is another with some good quotes (and audio clips). I especially like this one from 4 days before his testimony:

There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed...

Regarding the "aid and comfort" quote which you object to, its an obvious treason reference - and its not without basis (I'm not saying Kerry should be charged with treason Jane Fonda, an associate of his, on the other hand...): Kerry went to France in 1971 to talk to the the vietnamese delagates to the peace talks:

I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government...

It'd be a stretch to call that treason, but it is specifically illegal to have personal contact with foreign governments. That law is quoted in the second link.

As for the high ground, there absolutely is a difference. Apparently you can't tell the difference but I can.

As I said above, the reason you see a difference is that you're choosing to look at only half of the story.

 

[russ_watters]

Move On makes ads about Bush's actual failures; loss of jobs, horirble environmental plan, deteriorating situation in Iraq, etc. It's real different than just making up crap that goes against the actual navy records that the Swift Boat Liars do.

There is quite a bit more to it than that. MoveOn has pulled some of the more divisive ads from tv and their website, but did you see the one whith a picture of the Statue of Liberty with a black veil over her head? How about the one that compares the current Iraq situation to Vietnam - showing a solder sinking into quicksand with the word "quagmire" over the photo? Or http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=258# ad (link is to a story about the ad) that implies that the assault weapons ban expiration will allow people to buy machine guns.

This latest ad from Moveon PAC is about as misleading as it can be. Through words, graphics and sound effects, it invites viewers to think that the expiration of the ban on 19 semiautomatic assault weapons will allow people legally to buy fully automatic machine guns that can fire "up to 300 rounds per minute." That's false.

That one worked - we had a thread here where people posted angrily about this issue based on their own erroneous interpretation of the misleading rhetoric that's flown around.

Also, its important to remember what the name "moveon" is referring to: Moveon was created soon after 9/11 in an effort to convince people to "move on".

MoveOn is supported by something like ten times the money that the SBV had.

 

[wasteofo2]

Moveon: misleading

Swift Boats Vets: flat out liars

 

[russ_watters]

Moveon: misleading

Swift Boats Vets: flat out liars

Feel free to substantiate that...

Also, this implies that you think being misleading is ok. Is that what you really think?

Looking back through this forum, it seems you have been mislead about a great many things (the assault weapons ban is one of them, another recent one was prayer at the RNC). Doesn't that piss you off?

Ivan's assertion of two lies at the beginning of this thread has not borne out. Though, Ivan - I'll certainly give you your hearsay = lie assertion if you want it - you just need to take all the baggage that comes with it...