Water Density / Expansion and Life

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the density behavior of water and its implications for life, particularly focusing on whether other molecules exhibit similar properties of becoming less dense as they cool. Participants explore the significance of water's unique density characteristics and how they relate to the potential for life beyond Earth.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Debate/contested, Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about other molecules or chemicals that become less dense when cooled, suggesting that such properties could indicate the possibility of alternative life forms beyond Earth.
  • Another participant asserts that water's freezing point is crucial for life on Earth, noting that if it were at -4 degrees Celsius, life may not have originated as water would freeze from the bottom up.
  • A different participant challenges this assertion, stating that the density of water above its freezing point is what causes lakes to freeze from the top down, rather than the freezing temperature itself.
  • Another reply clarifies that water expands as it freezes until it reaches about -4 degrees Celsius, after which it behaves like other substances and shrinks, reinforcing the importance of water's density properties.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of water's freezing point and density behavior. There is no consensus on the significance of these properties for the origin of life or the existence of other life forms.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the relationship between freezing temperature and density, as well as the implications for life, which remain unresolved.

Descender
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What molecules or chemicals, other than water [H20] (that I know of), are less dense as they become cooler and their electrons slow? This is broad question, I know, but my question relates to the fact that much of our conditions of life rely on the density of water as it becomes a solid (see the last post at: by Jim Stringer). If there are other molecules or chemicals that react the same way then there could be other forms of life, besides Earth's terrestrial, outside of Earth so this is where my question originates from. I realize this may be a question of a green-horn, but I ask it nevertheless. I know there could be thousands, but I am interested in the simple molecules containing between 4 elements and 6 elements.

Thank you.
 
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Hi descender,
I know of no other material so important to life on Earth but do you know that life would never have originated if the freezing point of water had been at - ~4 degrees C rather than + ~4 degrees? Clue: water would freeze from the bottom up! Cheers, Jim
 
NEOclassic,

If water froze at -4 degrees C it would make no difference. What make lakes freeze "top-down" is that liquid water above its freezing point is more dense than ice. This quality has nothing at all to do with the actual freezing temperature.

- Warren
 
Chroot, you missed the point. Water, as it is freezing, expands UNTIL it reach about -4 degrees celsius after that it "shrinks" like everything else. NEOclassic's point is that if water froze at -4 degrees, then ice would not be lighter than water and water would freeze from the bottom up.
 

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