How Does Torture Align with Values of Freedom and Democracy?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of torture and abuse by military personnel in Iraq, particularly focusing on the actions of British and American soldiers. Participants explore the reactions to these events in the context of freedom, democracy, and the perceived moral standards of the involved nations. The conversation touches on historical precedents, media representation, and the accountability of military actions.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Historical
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express shock at the conduct of British troops, contrasting it with previous perceptions of their behavior in Iraq.
  • Others argue that the stereotyping of American conduct has created a narrative that makes British actions surprising, suggesting a double standard in public perception.
  • A viewpoint is presented that both British and American forces have revealed their true nature through these incidents, regardless of who committed the acts.
  • Concerns are raised about the role of media in exposing abuses, with some suggesting that without photographic evidence, such actions might have remained hidden.
  • Participants discuss the implications of prosecuting military personnel for war crimes, with some viewing it as a positive step towards accountability, while others question the sincerity of such actions.
  • There is a contention regarding the standards of conduct expected from the UK and US, with some asserting that these nations should be held to high standards while others challenge the notion of equitable enforcement of laws.
  • Some express skepticism about the portrayal of military actions in media, suggesting that it often lacks a complete picture and may be influenced by sensationalism.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; multiple competing views remain regarding the implications of military conduct, the role of media, and the standards of accountability in the UK and US. Disagreements persist about the nature of the discussion and the framing of the issues at hand.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying interpretations of the actions discussed, differing opinions on the role of media in shaping public perception, and unresolved questions about the historical context of military conduct.

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"The reaction in the Arab and Muslim world, and even here, has been of shock and also surprise because until very recently the British troops were considered to be much better in their conduct in Iraq than the Americans."
http://www.channel4.com/news/news_story.jsp?storyId=1721423
 
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Hmm, very disapointing.
 
We, Americans, are considered to be poorer conduct than everyone always. What's really amazing is that said stereotyping and generalizing has formed a "truth" in so many peoples' minds as to make THIS event (involving the British) some how a shock because it wasn't us this time.
 
doesn't matter who did it, both have finally showed their true nature to the people...
 
klusener said:
doesn't matter who did it, both have finally showed their true nature to the people...

Yes that's right. And as such, those that do wrong (they are in every society) will be put through a trial process and handed a punishment. I am very happy that is our true colors, instead of letting them go...

Oh? You meant that to have the standard rhetorical negative conotation?
 
If those soldiers did not document their crimes by digital Camera, nobody will know …. and the American propaganda will continue spreading lies about the situation in Iraq.

USA and UK started to take actions ONLY after the digital pictures spread among the people and Media.

Both governments knew about these crimes several months before the Media succeeded to get the pictures.

In December 2003, the chairman of Abu Gharib told the journalists that her jail (Abu Gharib) is looks like five star Hotel.. and she believe that many Iraqi prisoners do not like to leave it.

What if those soldiers did not take pictures for their crimes? What if media could not get these pictures! I doubt that anybody will know about it …. Just as the last war in Falluja … no journalists allowed to see the horrible crimes against the civilians till now.


phatmonky said:
Yes that's right. And as such, those that do wrong (they are in every society) will be put through a trial process and handed a punishment. I am very happy that is our true colors, instead of letting them go...

Oh? You meant that to have the standard rhetorical negative conotation?
 
phatmonky said:
Yes that's right. And as such, those that do wrong (they are in every society) will be put through a trial process and handed a punishment. I am very happy that is our true colors, instead of letting them go...

Oh? You meant that to have the standard rhetorical negative conotation?

that still doesn't make it acceptable, it doesn't justify their actions and it does show their true colors.. I think the disagreement between us is that you think that when I say both, I mean the countries in general, I was referring to the people who did these things..
 
Bilal made an excellent point, do you think that unless the soldier who brought forth the pictures with the Abu Grahaib torture, the idiots who participated in it would have been brought to justice? in the end you just tried to save your face by taking them to court...
 
Bilal said:
If those soldiers did not document their crimes by digital Camera, nobody will know …. and the American propaganda will continue spreading lies about the situation in Iraq.

Very true, and underlines the truism that when we rely on the network news for the truth we are often getting only a very paritial picture. Never mind, I hear that Al Jazeera will be available on satellite TV in the US soon. I hope it people will watch it with an open mind, as there might well be stories on it that they wouldn't otherwise see, and viewpoints expressed that they wouldn't otherwise hear.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/91B0FD3E-4A1C-4554-9430-FF2764C37A61.htm
 
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  • #10
klusener said:
, I was referring to the people who did these things..
Then I agree.
 
  • #12
It is no big news that British abused and killed Arabs in today's Iraq around 1920's.British even used chemical weapons on them.
 
  • #13
Good to see that the UK holds itslef to the same high standards as the US and enforces its laws equitably. Other countries should follow their example.

edit: it appears some are. For the first time ever, a Palestinian leader is trying to do the same thing: Palestinian police have actually arrested suspects in last week's terrorist bombing! A step (a small step, but a step nonetheless) in the right direction.
 
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  • #14
russ_watters said:
Good to see that the UK holds itslef to the same high standards as the US and enforces its laws equitably. Other countries should follow their example.

High standards? I hardly think so.
http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/T/torture/index.html

Other countries should follow this example - are you nuts?
 
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  • #15
russ_watters said:
Good to see that the UK holds itslef to the same high standards as the US and enforces its laws equitably. Other countries should follow their example.

edit: it appears some are. For the first time ever, a Palestinian leader is trying to do the same thing: Palestinian police have actually arrested suspects in last week's terrorist bombing! A step (a small step, but a step nonetheless) in the right direction.

... most counties do enforce their laws equitably, corruption isn't that widespread if we limit ourselves out of the obvious cases. It's the other side of the coin that is more troublesome and giving grief.
 
  • #16
the number 42 said:
High standards? I hardly think so.
http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/T/torture/index.html

Other countries should follow this example - are you nuts?
You know that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to other countries following our example of rule of law. Who among our enemies is willing to prosecute their own people for crimes against their enemies?
 
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  • #17
russ_watters said:
You know that's not what I was referring to. I was referring to other countries following our example of rule of law. Who among our enemies is willing to prosecute their own people for crimes against their enemies?

This the Shame of Britain's Abu Ghraib thread, Russ. Would you care to comment on the link I provided?
http://www.channel4.com/news/micros...ture/index.html
 
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  • #18
the number 42 said:
This the Shame of Britain's Abu Ghraib thread...
In other words, we're only allowed to bash the UK (and US) here, not praise it? You posted the link to the story about the prosecution, not me. I commented on what that act (prosecution of war criminals) shows. Sorry, but the implications I see in what you posted are not negative. What is your comment on the fact that the UK is willing to prosecute its own soldiers?
Would you care to comment on the link I provided?
Its anti-America, sensationalist, misleading, hateful rhetoric. I'm not a big fan of the tabloid/Michael Moore style of much of the UK's media.
 
  • #19
russ_watters said:
In other words, we're only allowed to bash the UK (and US) here, not praise it? You posted the link to the story about the prosecution, not me. I commented on what that act (prosecution of war criminals) shows. Sorry, but the implications I see in what you posted are not negative. What is your comment on the fact that the UK is willing to prosecute its own soldiers?

Go ahead and bury your head in the sand then, but don't pretend that you are interested in an intelligent discusssion, let alone truth and justice. Why don't you start a thread listing all the great things the UK and American military are doing at the moment? This thread is focusing on the abuses, which unless you keep your head in the sand, are far more significant.

russ_watters said:
Its anti-America, sensationalist, misleading, hateful rhetoric.

Ignorant rubbish. Its about freedom of information, and if you are really interested in what America is supposed to stand for in the world you will open your eyes. You may find it sensational and hateful, but its hard to report this story without raising these feelings. Misleading? If only it were all a lie, Russ. Open your eyes.
 
  • #20
russ_watters said:
I'm not a big fan of the tabloid/Michael Moore style of much of the UK's media.

I shouldn't let this go unchallanged. The UK has some of the foulest muck-raking media outlets in the world, as exemplified by The Sun newspaper. However, the UK also has some of the most honest & upstanding reporting in the world, and having seen most of the three Channel 4 documentaries aired so far, they are not tabloid style. True, they need to be interesting to catch a wide audience, but as far as I could see these were free of sensationalism. When the story is The US Engages in Systematic Torture, you don't need tabloid hype. The muck is there, staring us in the face, pre-raked.

Do you support torture, Russ?
 
  • #21
Tom Ridge is quoted as saying that:
under an "extreme set" of hypothetical circumstances, such as a nuclear threat, "it could happen".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4175713.stm

What are your conditions for the torture that is taking place in the name of freedom and democracy?
 

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