Torture Still Routine in Iraqi Jails

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the allegations of torture in Iraqi jails, as reported by Human Rights Watch. Participants explore the implications of these reports on the current Iraqi government, the role of the U.S. in Iraq, and historical comparisons to past regimes, particularly Nazi Germany. The conversation involves a mix of commentary on human rights, political accountability, and the nature of authority in post-war Iraq.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants highlight that Iraqi authorities are reportedly torturing prisoners, drawing parallels to past abuses under Saddam Hussein.
  • Others argue that the torture is not systematic but rather the result of individual actions by prison guards, referencing historical quotes to support this view.
  • There is a contention regarding the implications of U.S. involvement in Iraq, with some asserting that the U.S. bears indirect responsibility for the current situation.
  • Some participants challenge the notion that the U.S. invasion absolves Iraqis of moral responsibility for their actions.
  • Concerns are raised about the U.S. government's role in creating conditions that allow torture to persist, suggesting a need to examine systemic issues rather than focusing solely on individual actions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the nature and responsibility for torture in Iraq. There is no consensus on whether the actions are systematic or individual, nor on the extent of U.S. responsibility for the situation.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various sources and historical contexts, which may influence their interpretations. The discussion reflects a range of opinions on the political dynamics in Iraq and the implications of foreign intervention.

Bilal
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&e=2&u=/nm/iraq_rights_dc

((BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraqi authorities routinely torture prisoners, a leading human rights group said on Tuesday, citing examples of abuse which will sound all too familiar to those who suffered under Saddam Hussein.
Prisoners have been beaten with cables and hose pipes, and suffered electric shocks to their earlobes and genitalsthe U.S.-based group Human Rights Watch said. Some have been starved of food and water and crammed into standing-room only cells. )),

(("The Iraqi interim government is not keeping its promises to honor and respect basic human rights. Sadly, the Iraqi people continue to suffer from a government that acts with impunity in its treatment of detainees." ))


(("Detainees report kicking, slapping and punching, prolonged suspension from the wrists with the hands tied behind the back, electric shocks to sensitive parts of the body ... and being kept blindfolded and/or handcuffed continuously for several days," the group said in a report.
"In several cases, the detainees suffered what may be permanent physical disability." The report also said Iraq's intelligence service had violated the rights of political opponents.
It highlighted the systematic use of arbitrary arrest, pre-trial detention of up to four months, improper treatment of child detainees and abysmal conditions in pre-trial facilities. ))
 
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I suppose you are saying that the Americans and Nazis are the same, that's why we should draw parallels between the two on this matter..
 
klusener said:
I suppose you are saying that the Americans and Nazis are the same, that's why we should draw parallels between the two on this matter..

If you had read the original post (let alone the news article, heaven forbid!) you would see that

1) The torturers in this case are Iraqis, and
2) The whistle-blowing agency was "US-based"

So there is no even implied equation of the US with Nazis in this post, or in the article it was based on.

They do, however tend to belie the "Everything is for the best in this best of all possible Iraqs" line that we get from all the warbloggers and other right wing sources.
 
Dear selfAdjoint,

The post is about the new government and police of Iraq, which suppose to be liberated...

After no MDW weapons found, White House use ''violation of human rights'' as main reason of the war. They promise to make democratic Iraq as good example for other countries in ME ...

Unfortunately, these reports send wrong message by showing that the new Iraq is another version of Iraq of Saddam...

Current Iraqi leaders are former Baathists , especially the PM and Minister of Defense, they are corrupted and do not believe in freedom or democracy.

selfAdjoint said:
If you had read the original post (let alone the news article, heaven forbid!) you would see that

1) The torturers in this case are Iraqis, and
2) The whistle-blowing agency was "US-based"

So there is no even implied equation of the US with Nazis in this post, or in the article it was based on.

They do, however tend to belie the "Everything is for the best in this best of all possible Iraqs" line that we get from all the warbloggers and other right wing sources.
 
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Bilal said:
Current Iraqi leaders are former Baathists , especially the PM and Minister of Defense, they are corrupted and do not believe in freedom or democracy.

Damn right, they should send an American in there to run the country...how about Jeb Bush ? :smile: :smile:
 
selfAdjoint said:
If you had read the original post (let alone the news article, heaven forbid!) you would see that

1) The torturers in this case are Iraqis, and
2) The whistle-blowing agency was "US-based"

So there is no even implied equation of the US with Nazis in this post, or in the article it was based on.

They do, however tend to belie the "Everything is for the best in this best of all possible Iraqs" line that we get from all the warbloggers and other right wing sources.

dammit, it was my mistake.. I was basing my post on the same quote that Burnsys posted in the Civilized world article.. I was just annoyed that he (or she) kept posting the same thing over and over again...
 
klusener said:
dammit, it was my mistake.. I was basing my post on the same quote that Burnsys posted in the Civilized world article.. I was just annoyed that he (or she) kept posting the same thing over and over again...

sorry..

(and it's "he")
 
Good Point Bilal, like it or not the Americans are indirectly responsible for everything that happens in Iraq now, rain or shine, good or bad.
 
  • #10
Smurf said:
Good Point Bilal, like it or not the Americans are indirectly responsible for everything that happens in Iraq now, rain or shine, good or bad.

I'm afraid I don't follow the logic of this inference. Would you care to explain how the US invasion of Iraq suddenly transformed the Iraqi people into zombies that are not morally responsible for their own choices?
 
  • #11
selfAdjoint said:
So there is no even implied equation of the US with Nazis in this post, or in the article it was based on.
Oh, ye of little imagination...
like it or not the Americans are indirectly responsible for everything that happens in Iraq now, rain or shine, good or bad.
Sooo saw that coming.
 
  • #12
Would you care to explain how the US invasion of Iraq suddenly transformed the Iraqi people into zombies that are not morally responsible for their own choices?

US has enough money to buy all the Iraqis and it has military power. Would u say no to a person with a gun?(bullets loaded ofcourse and does not hesitate to torture u)
 
  • #13
chound said:
US has enough money to buy all the Iraqis and it has military power. Would u say no to a person with a gun?(bullets loaded ofcourse and does not hesitate to torture u)
So you're claiming:

a - the Iraqis are being paid by the US to torture their prisoners

and/or

b - the Iraqis are being forced at gunpoint to torture their prisoners.

Need I ask... do you have any evidence to support those claims?
 
  • #14
chound said:
US has enough money to buy all the Iraqis and it has military power. Would u say no to a person with a gun?(bullets loaded ofcourse and does not hesitate to torture u)

Thanks for reminding me of why I stay out of this Forum.
 
  • #15
Update - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060503/ap_on_re_eu/us_torture_report

Good point - "The U.S. government is not only failing to take steps to eradicate torture. It is actually creating a climate in which torture and other ill-treatment can flourish — including by trying to narrow the definition of torture," he said.

Even if torture isn't openly accepted or legalized, the opportunity for it to occur unimpeded is. Instead of focusing on intentions and individuals (as this leads to heated arguments), we might focus on the systems that produce these results. In this way, Nationalist Socialist Germany is an appropriate analogy: the historical context of each situation allows for social elements (ideology, cultural perceptions) to sanction certain actions and condemn others.
 
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