Characterizing Volume in Equilibrium Thermodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the characterization of volume in the context of equilibrium thermodynamics, specifically relating to the Helmholtz potential and its dependence on various parameters like temperature, volume, and particle number.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references equation 16.10 from Callen, which defines the canonical partition function Z and its relation to the Helmholtz potential F, questioning how this relationship characterizes volume.
  • Another participant argues that the dependence on extensive mechanical parameters like volume (V) and particle number (N) arises from the constraints imposed by the canonical ensemble, noting that the systems exchange heat but do not experience mechanical interactions, suggesting that these parameters are assumed constant in macroscopic descriptions.
  • A question is raised about the rationale for taking the derivative of the Helmholtz potential with respect to volume to determine pressure, implying a need for clarity on the role of derivatives in equilibrium thermodynamics.
  • A later reply emphasizes that the question pertains to equilibrium thermodynamics rather than statistical mechanics, hinting at the significance of derivatives in this context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between Helmholtz potential and volume, with some focusing on statistical mechanics and others on equilibrium thermodynamics. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the characterization of volume.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully explored the implications of the assumptions regarding constant parameters or the specific conditions under which the Helmholtz potential is analyzed.

pt176900
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from callen, equation 16.10 reads Z = sum(e^-BE)

the text later says that F = -kT ln Z, and states that it gives the helmholtz potential as a function of B, V, N
where B = 1/kT

my question is, what part of this relationship characterizes the volume?
 
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Since the canonical Zustandsumme "Z" is not an integral in the phase space,for statistical systems in the quantum canonical ensemble it's not that obvious why the dependence on the extensive mechanical paramters like V & N needs to appear.
It comes up from the contraints we imposed upon the systems from the ensemble.Specifically,the systems exchange heat thus keeping the temperature constant,and that's it.They do not suffer other types of interactions,viz.NO MECHANICAL INTERACTIONS,therefore,in it's macroscopical description the extensive mechanical parameters are assumed constant and given.That's how u explain the dependence of 1/T,V,N,... for the Massieu function Phi or for Helmholtz potential F...

Daniel.
 
ok, so if it's a constant, then why would you take the derivative of the helmhotlz potential with respect to volume to determine the pressure of the system?
 
That's a question not in the realm of stat.mechanics,but in the one of EQUILIBRIUM THERMODYNAMICS.Ask yourself what is the point of taking the derivatives (all of them partial due to multiple variable dependence) in EQUILIBRIUM thermodynamics...

HINT:the key word is thermoDYNAMICS...

Daniel.
 

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