Magnetic forces/fields don't do work?

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    Magnetic Work
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the question of whether magnetic fields and forces do work, particularly in the context of classical electrodynamics versus quantum mechanical scenarios. Participants explore the implications of magnetic forces in various situations, including static and dynamic cases, and the role of electric fields in doing work on charged particles.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that magnetic fields do not do work, particularly in classical electrodynamics, where the magnetic force does not contribute to work done on a charged particle.
  • Others argue that this is a simplification and that in certain quantum mechanical situations, such as with a charged particle in a non-uniform magnetic field, the magnetic field can indeed do work due to the particle's magnetic moment.
  • One participant points out that while the magnetic force term drops out in work calculations, the magnetic field still plays a role in the overall dynamics.
  • Another participant suggests that the work being done in the context of attracting iron filings is actually due to the electric fields associated with the charges in the filings, not the magnetic field itself.
  • References to articles discussing the topic are provided, indicating a deeper exploration of the subject matter.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the role of magnetic fields in doing work, with some supporting the idea that magnetic fields do not do work in classical contexts, while others introduce quantum mechanical considerations that challenge this view. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives present.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the conditions under which magnetic fields may or may not do work, particularly the dependence on the definitions of work and the context of the physical systems being considered.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and enthusiasts of physics, particularly those exploring the nuances of electromagnetic theory and the distinctions between classical and quantum mechanics.

SherlockOhms
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Now, I'm not sure if I misunderstood the textbook but I read that magnetic fields and forces don't actually do any work. How is this the case? Consider a bar magnetic and some iron filings. If you use the magnet to attract the filings towards it wouldn't some sort of work be done? Thanks.
 
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Now, I'm not sure if I misunderstood the textbook but I read that magnetic fields and forces don't actually do any work.
That is a simplified description for static magnetic fields, with free charges moving in them. Your system does not have that.
 
Well the magnetic force term definitely drops out when we calculate the work done on a small displacement, but that does not mean the magnetic field does not take part.
 
Thanks for this.
 
DAPOS said:
Now, I'm not sure if I misunderstood the textbook but I read that magnetic fields and forces don't actually do any work.
That's true for classical electrodynamics but not always the case in certain quantum mechanical situations. E.g. if you were to place a charged particle at rest in a non-uniform magnetic field then the magnetic field would do work on the charged particle because it has a magnetic moment and thus acts as a microscopic bar magnet.

DAPOS said:
How is this the case? Consider a bar magnetic and some iron filings. If you use the magnet to attract the filings towards it wouldn't some sort of work be done? Thanks.
Work is being done, just not by the magnetic field. It's the electric field of the charges which make up the iron fillings which are doing the work. This is all explained in the following two articles

Work done on a charged particles in magnetic fields, Charles A. Coombes, Am. J. Phys. 47(10), October 1979

Magnetic Forces doing work?, Eugene P. Mosca, Am. J. Phys.42, 295 (1974).

If you want to read these articles I can look into creating an e-mail account in order to send them to you with.
 
Great stuff. Thanks for that. I'm not sure that I'll be doing much further reading on the subject at the moment. This is great for now.
 
DAPOS said:
Great stuff. Thanks for that. I'm not sure that I'll be doing much further reading on the subject at the moment. This is great for now.
You're most welcome. I love the American Journal of Physics. It's my favorite physics journal because I love thinking about the foundations of physics.

I've gathered a considerable number of articles over the years and have scanned them all into my computer. I lost a lot of them due to a system crash so I'll have to start over and scan a lot of them in again. If you ever want to read something on a particular subject that is in that journal then let me know. I can obtain a copy and forward it to you. I wrote to the editor of that journal and was given permission to do so, so don't worry about copyrights. They said it was okay to disseminate an article for educational purposes.
 
Brilliant. Thanks for that and I'll be sure to ask for those if I ever feel the need to read on.
 
DAPOS said:
Brilliant. Thanks for that and I'll be sure to ask for those if I ever feel the need to read on.
You're most welcome. I finally realized that you can upload files into posts that can be read by anyone reasding the post. I greatly enjoy helping people learn physics and math in anyway that I'm able to. It just feels so good to do so. Ever notice that yourself? :-p
 

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