Proving the Non-Equivalence of 'P V Q' to Any Horn Formula

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the question of whether the logical expression "P V Q" can be proven to be not equivalent to any Horn formula. Participants explore the definitions and implications of Horn clauses and formulas, seeking a formal proof or logical reasoning behind the claim that "P V Q" serves as a counter-example to Horn formulas.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks for a formal method to prove that "P V Q" is not equivalent to any Horn formula, indicating a need for clarity beyond common assertions.
  • Another participant questions the terminology used, seeking clarification on whether the goal is to prove "P V Q" is not a Horn Clause or not equivalent to any Horn formula.
  • A participant expresses a desire to understand the logic behind why "P V Q" is not equivalent to any Horn formula, noting that many sources refer to it as an obvious example without providing formal explanations.
  • One participant outlines two main points to prove: the relationship between Horn Clauses and Horn Formulas, and the nature of disjunctions of positive literals in relation to Horn Clauses.
  • Another participant suggests that since "Q1 v Q2" is contingent, any equivalent formula must include "Q1" and "Q2" as subformulas, leading to a discussion about truth tables and the non-equivalence of disjunctions and conjunctions.
  • Further exploration of specific forms of Horn Clauses is presented, with examples of how "Q1 v Q2" does not fit these forms, suggesting that it cannot be equivalent to any Horn Clause.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and agreement regarding the definitions and implications of Horn Clauses and Horn Formulas. There is no consensus on a formal proof, and multiple viewpoints on the nature of "P V Q" and its relationship to Horn formulas remain present.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference the need for formal proofs and logical reasoning, while others rely on truth tables and examples to illustrate their points. The discussion highlights the complexity of the topic and the need for clarity in definitions and relationships.

nounou
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How can we prove that "P V Q" is not a Horn Clause

Does anyone have an idea how to prove that "P V Q" is not equivalent to any horn formula. All I seem to find is people saying that it is a very clear counter-example, but I need more of a formal method of proof.
Any ideas?
:bugeye:
 
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What do "P" and "Q" denote? Your title and post say different things- do you want to prove that "P v Q" is not a Horn Clause or that "P v Q" is not equivalent to any Horn Fornmula?
 
I woud like to show that "P V Q" is not equivalent to any horn formula, where P and Q are primitive propositions. The point is that all sources I read are saying that this is the most obvious example showing that not everything can be represented as a horn clause (and therefore not equivalent to any horn formula), but I never found any formal explanation. I just need the logic behind why "P V Q" is not equivalent to any horn formula.
Thanx.
 
Well, I don't know much about Horn anything- I just looked up some definitions yesterday. But you have two things to prove.
1) If a formula F is not equivalent to any Horn Clause, then F is not equivalent to any Horn Formula.
2) If Q1 and Q2 denote positive literals, then (Q1 v Q2) is not equivalent to any Horn Clause.
You already stated (1) in your post- do you know a proof of it? Notice that a Horn Formula (HF) is just a conjunction of one or more Horn Clauses (HC). So the following rules will give you every HF:
3) If F is a HC, then F is a HF.
4) If F and G are HC, then (F & G) is a HF.
Can you use this to prove (1)?
For (2), notice that every HC is equivalent to a formula of one the following forms, where P denotes a positive literal:
5) ~(P1 & P2 & ... & Pn). (when HC has no positive literal)
6) (P1 & P2 & ... & Pn) -> P. (when HC has one positive literal)
Is (Q1 v Q2) equivalent to a formula of one of those forms?
There may be a shorter way to do this, and it uses some theorems I won't prove, (Edit: unless you ask me to- the first theorem is very handy so you may want a proof of it) but here goes. Since (Q1 v Q2) is contingent, any formula equivalent to (Q1 v Q2) must contain Q1 and Q2 as subformulas.
(Q1 v Q2) is not equivalent to ~(Q1 & Q2) (form (5)), and adding more Pns won't change this. Just construct their truth tables to see the first part. To see that adding more Pns won't help, just look at the truth tables you've constructed. Notice that a disjunction has only one F entry in its column, in the row where all the disjuncts are F- no matter how many disjuncts there are. Similarly, a conjunction has only one T entry, in the row where all the conjuncts are T. So the negation of a conjunction has only one F entry, in the row where all the conjuncts are T. So no matter how many Pns you have, their disjunction and the negation of their conjunction will have only one F entry- but never in the same row. So they aren't equivalent. I know you like "formal" proofs, but that would take more work- so I'll leave it to you. :biggrin:
For form (6), you have three cases to check.
7) (Q1 v Q2) <-> (Q1 -> Q2)
8) (Q1 v Q2) <-> (Q2 -> Q1)
9) (Q1 v Q2) <-> ((Q1 & Q2) -> P)
You'll see that these are all false, and you already know that adding more Pns as conjuncts won't change it.
Since (Q1 v Q2) is not equivalent to any formula of form (5) or (6), (Q1 v Q2) is not equivalent to any HC.
 
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Thank uuuuu honestrosewater :smile:
 

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