Relation between energy spend and force

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    Energy Force Relation
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between energy expenditure and force applied by a cyclist during biking, particularly in the context of a simulation. Participants explore various factors influencing this relationship, including scenarios such as biking uphill and at zero velocity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that while power is defined as force times speed, this may not apply when a biker is stationary on a steep hill, raising questions about energy use in such scenarios.
  • Another participant clarifies that the relevant velocity is that of the pedals, not the bike itself, and discusses the relationship between pedal power and bike power, ignoring friction and drag.
  • A participant outlines several factors that affect energy expenditure, including friction coefficients, slope, mass, pedal arm length, gear ratio, and wheel diameter, suggesting that work done by muscles differs from the physical definition of work.
  • One participant proposes a mathematical model for energy usage, incorporating forces due to friction and gravity, and provides equations relating force, velocity, and energy expenditure.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriate definitions and relationships between force, power, and energy expenditure, indicating that multiple competing models and interpretations remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the assumptions made regarding friction, gravity, and the definitions of work and energy, which may affect the applicability of the proposed models.

silverside
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I'm working on a bicycling simulation. I'm looking for a formula which relates the energy that a biker spends per time unit to the force on the pedals.
I know that power = force * speed, but I'm not sure if this is appropriate here. For example what happens if a biker is on a steep hill with velocity 0? From the formula it follows that power is 0, but the biker still uses energy. What is the relation between this energy use and the force he exercises?
 
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It's force*velocity of the pedal, not velocity of the bike.
 
The answer will depend to a crude approximation, upon (I believe, all of the following)
1. The coefficient of friction between the tires and the ground as well as friction in the bearings of the wheels, in the pedal and in the gears
2. The slope of the ground
3. The mass of the bicycle + cyclist
4. The length of the pedal arm, the gear ratio and the diameter of the rear wheel

At zero velocity, the work done is close to zero. The biker dissipates power from :
1. His normal metabolism, and
2. An additional contribution from a "discomfort factor"

Work done (or energy expended) by muscles is not the same as the physical quantity known as 'work', defined as the difference in some appropriate form of energy or the path integral of the component of the applied force along the direction of instantaneous displacement.
 
It's force*velocity of the pedal, not velocity of the bike.

The power going into the pedals (force*velocity of pedals) is equal (ignoring friction and drag) to the power of the bike (angular velocity of wheel times torque at the rear wheel).
 
silverside said:
I'm working on a bicycling simulation. I'm looking for a formula which relates the energy that a biker spends per time unit to the force on the pedals.
I know that power = force * speed, but I'm not sure if this is appropriate here. For example what happens if a biker is on a steep hill with velocity 0? From the formula it follows that power is 0, but the biker still uses energy. What is the relation between this energy use and the force he exercises?

The biker will accelerate until the force that the biker-bike system exerts will be equal to the force that friction exerts against them.
so

[tex]F = F_f[/tex]

let the forces due to friction be:

[tex]F_f = C + c_1*v[/tex]

Then the velocity of the biker (assuming he has reached equilibrium with friction) will be:

[tex]v=\frac{F_f-C}{c1} \rightarrow v=\frac{F-C}{c1}[/tex]

the distance traveled after some time will be:

[tex]\sum_{t=0}^{t=i}{v_it}=\sum_{t=0}^{t=i}{\frac{(F_i-C)t}{c1}}[/tex]

the energy usage of the biker will be:

[tex]P = \frac{F}{v} = \frac{Fc1}{F-C}[/tex]

the total energy used by the biker since the start will be:

[tex]\sum_{t=0}^{t=i}{F_iv_it}=\sum_{t=0}^{t=i}{\frac{F_i(F_i-C)t}{c1}}[/tex]

When the biker is on a steep hill you can simply adjust the first formula, because then the biker has not only the force of friction against him but also the force of gravity. When the biker is on a hill that has an angle A with respect to horizontal then:
[tex]F = F_f - \frac{F_z}{sin(A)}[/tex]
 

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