Neutronium armor


by Tisthammerw
Tags: armor, neutronium
Tisthammerw
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#1
Jul24-05, 12:43 PM
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As many of you know, neutronium is a type of matter found in neutron stars. It is incredibly dense (hundreds of millions of metric tons per cubic centimeter) and consists of neutrons sitting right next to each other. In sci-fi (e.g. star trek) neutronium is sometimes used as nearly indestructible armor.

Assuming neutronium armor could be made, how effective would it actually be for protection? IIRC, the force holding neutrons together is far stronger than what holds atoms and molecules together, so on the surface the purported toughness seems reasonable if such armor could be made. But I'd like to be sure. What do you physics experts think?
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Hurkyl
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Jul24-05, 01:06 PM
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The problem is trying to produce the force that holds the neutronium together, and how to avoid crushing the wearer and everything around him in a 30* mile radius in the process!

Neutroniu does not stay together of its own volition: it very much wants to explode. It takes the man of an entire sun packed into the (much smaller) volume of a neutron star to keep it together.


*: number picked out of thin air
Astronuc
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Jul24-05, 01:40 PM
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Quote Quote by Tisthammerw
As many of you know, neutronium is a type of matter found in neutron stars. It is incredibly dense (hundreds of millions of metric tons per cubic centimeter) and consists of neutrons sitting right next to each other. In sci-fi (e.g. star trek) neutronium is sometimes used as nearly indestructible armor.

Assuming neutronium armor could be made, how effective would it actually be for protection? IIRC, the force holding neutrons together is far stronger than what holds atoms and molecules together, so on the surface the purported toughness seems reasonable if such armor could be made. But I'd like to be sure. What do you physics experts think?
This sounds like Isaac Asimov's Foundation series and the 'nucleics' concept - micronuclear devices.

As Hurkyl pointed out, the conditions required for neutron stars preclude the proximity to humans. The same goes for stars - one cannot develop a fusion power source comparable to a star - the pressures and radiation fluxes are simply too great.

yourdadonapogostick
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#4
Jul24-05, 01:48 PM
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Neutronium armor


Quote Quote by Tisthammerw
As many of you know, neutronium is a type of matter found in neutron stars. It is incredibly dense (hundreds of millions of metric tons per cubic centimeter) and consists of neutrons sitting right next to each other. In sci-fi (e.g. star trek) neutronium is sometimes used as nearly indestructible armor.

Assuming neutronium armor could be made, how effective would it actually be for protection? IIRC, the force holding neutrons together is far stronger than what holds atoms and molecules together, so on the surface the purported toughness seems reasonable if such armor could be made. But I'd like to be sure. What do you physics experts think?
DOOMSDAY MACHINE!!!!!!!!!
that episode was awesome.

not suitable for like armor to wear on your person.be could for a VERY BIG spaceship, though....although that would make it really difficult to move...
Tisthammerw
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#5
Jul25-05, 12:13 PM
P: 175
Quote Quote by Hurkyl
The problem is trying to produce the force that holds the neutronium together, and how to avoid crushing the wearer and everything around him in a 30* mile radius in the process!

Neutroniu does not stay together of its own volition: it very much wants to explode. It takes the man of an entire sun packed into the (much smaller) volume of a neutron star to keep it together.
Interesting, but then what overcomes the strong force for neutronium to naturally explode? I had heard about the alleged instability of neutronium outside the pressures of a neutronium star on the Internet, but I was suspicious because I didn't know what could overcome the strong force that would seem to hold neutronium together.
Tisthammerw
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#6
Jul25-05, 12:18 PM
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Quote Quote by Astronuc
This sounds like Isaac Asimov's Foundation series and the 'nucleics' concept - micronuclear devices.

As Hurkyl pointed out, the conditions required for neutron stars preclude the proximity to humans. The same goes for stars - one cannot develop a fusion power source comparable to a star - the pressures and radiation fluxes are simply too great.
Perhaps so, but unfortunately that really doesn't answer my question. If such armor could be made...

...how effective would it actually be for protection? IIRC, the force holding neutrons together is far stronger than what holds atoms and molecules together, so on the surface the purported toughness seems reasonable if such armor could be made. But I'd like to be sure. What do you physics experts think?
As I said earlier, I had heard about the alleged instability of neutronium outside the pressures of a neutronium star on the Internet, but I was suspicious because I didn't know what could overcome the strong force that would seem to hold neutronium together. See for instance, http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=neutronium Iím not sure which website to trust, though the latter does seem to make the most sense to my limited knowledge of physics.
Hurkyl
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#7
Jul25-05, 09:42 PM
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Gravitational confinement.

Think about this: what force is stopping the neutron star from collapsing into a black hole?
Tisthammerw
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#8
Jul25-05, 11:56 PM
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Quote Quote by Hurkyl
Gravitational confinement.
Can you be a little more specific? Neutronium is very dense and thus has more gravity per cubic centimeter than normal matter. But how exactly would this overcome the strong nuclear force binding it together?


Think about this: what force is stopping the neutron star from collapsing into a black hole?
To be honest, I don't know. All I remember is that given a radius r there must be certain amount of matter (often an enormous amount) needed within that radius for it to become a black hole. So, my best guess for that answer is that there is not enough matter for the star to collapse into a black hole.
CBJammin103
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#9
Jul26-05, 07:04 PM
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Basically what they're trying to say (I think) is that in a neutron star, the particles are held together out of the sheer incredible gravitational force that holds any celestial body together. Because of the opposite force the particles exert, the star does not collapse into a black hole.

However, in a smaller "armor-like" usage, there would be no massive graviational force to hold the particles together. There would have to be some other substitute force to do this, which would render any kind of armor basically pointless.
Tisthammerw
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#10
Jul27-05, 12:08 AM
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Quote Quote by CBJammin103
Basically what they're trying to say (I think) is that in a neutron star, the particles are held together out of the sheer incredible gravitational force that holds any celestial body together. Because of the opposite force the particles exert, the star does not collapse into a black hole.

However, in a smaller "armor-like" usage, there would be no massive gravitational force to hold the particles together. There would have to be some other substitute force to do this, which would render any kind of armor basically pointless.
Except that the substitute force would (presumably) be the strong nuclear force--one that does not require a neutron star. In atoms, the strong nuclear force is what holds the nucleus of protons and neutrons together. The idea is that neutronium--albeit very dense--would be held together by the strong nuclear force as opposed to the relatively wimpy atomic bonds. If so, then it seems it could theoretically be used as nearly indestructible armor (as in Star Trek episodes).

If neutronium were to "explode" or at least be unstable outside a neutron star it seems that there would have to be something countering the strong nuclear force that would ordinarily hold neutrons together. My question: what is it?

In some websites such as http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1185582 seem to say that neutronium could theoretically act as armor, whereas some say neutronium would be unstable outside of a neutron star. I'm not sure which website to trust, so I came here.
Chronos
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Aug4-05, 01:32 AM
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Hurkyl was hinting at the 'Pauli exclusion principle', which is what prevents a neutron star from further collapsing to form a black hole. If you attempted to ferry off with 'neutronium' you mined from a neutron star, it would decompress like a fish yanked from 10,000 feet, only worse... much worse.
Haelfix
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Aug4-05, 05:39 AM
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For that matter getting anywhere near a neutron star would be a pretty bad idea. EG how best to implode a human being in 1 short step.
Nereid
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Aug4-05, 06:55 AM
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Now, how quickly would a human, somehow 'instantly' transported to a spot some, say, 1 km above the surface of an NS:
a ) be ripped to atoms/molecules, by the tidal force or the magnetic field?
b ) 'fall' to the surface of the NS (how fast would they be going when they hit, assuming the NS has no 'atmosphere')?
c ) become smeared as a monolayer (atoms? neutrons??) over the surface of the NS?
russ_watters
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#14
Aug4-05, 11:32 AM
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Quote Quote by Tisthammerw
Except that the substitute force would (presumably) be the strong nuclear force--one that does not require a neutron star. In atoms, the strong nuclear force is what holds the nucleus of protons and neutrons together. The idea is that neutronium--albeit very dense--would be held together by the strong nuclear force as opposed to the relatively wimpy atomic bonds.
You're missing the point (which is ok, because no one has said it yet) - the strong nuclear force does not apply here. The force that keeps electrons orbiting atoms and atoms from collapsing into neutronium is electromagnetism and that force doesn't just vanish when the star collapses. Its still there, trying to separate the electrons from the neutrons, but gravity is what prevents that. Free neutrons are not stable particles.

If a ball of neutrons were a stable configuration of sub-atomic particles, every nuclear reactor would create one, because they are chock-full of free neutrons, floating around. They'd collect piles of them on the bottom of the reactor.

Caveat: this isn't my area of expertise, so if I got this wrong, someone please correct me.
Art
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#15
Aug4-05, 07:47 PM
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Quote Quote by Hurkyl
Neutronium does not stay together of its own volition: it very much wants to explode. It takes the man of an entire sun packed into the (much smaller) volume of a neutron star to keep it together.
Although it takes intense gravitation to create neutronium, once made would it be necessarily unstable if removed from the environment that created it? However with regard to the op, the main problem with making armor from neutronium is that as far as I know neutronium in a neutron star is believed to be a liquid?
Art
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Aug4-05, 08:01 PM
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Quote Quote by russ_watters
You're missing the point (which is ok, because no one has said it yet) - the strong nuclear force does not apply here. The force that keeps electrons orbiting atoms and atoms from collapsing into neutronium is electromagnetism and that force doesn't just vanish when the star collapses. Its still there, trying to separate the electrons from the neutrons, but gravity is what prevents that. Free neutrons are not stable particles.

If a ball of neutrons were a stable configuration of sub-atomic particles, every nuclear reactor would create one, because they are chock-full of free neutrons, floating around. They'd collect piles of them on the bottom of the reactor.

Caveat: this isn't my area of expertise, so if I got this wrong, someone please correct me.
The neutron (plus a neutrino) is created when a proton and an electron are combined together. The original electron and proton would no longer exist to seek separation.
Hurkyl
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Aug4-05, 08:04 PM
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Although it takes intense gravitation to create neutronium, once made would it be necessarily unstable if removed from the environment that created it?
I confess that I cannot prove that, once removed from the neutron star, that some other mechanism will manifest that will provide a confining force equal to that of the gravitation of the neutron star.

However, I see absolutely no reason to suspect such a force will manifest. Do you?
Astronuc
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Aug4-05, 08:12 PM
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Quote Quote by Tisthammerw
It is incredibly dense (hundreds of millions of metric tons per cubic centimeter) . . .

Assuming neutronium armor could be made, how effective would it actually be for protection?
If it could be made, it would be an effective armor. The mass density (millions of metric tons per cubic millimeter) would be sufficient to effectively absorb any project impacting it.

On the other hand, it would probably weigh a heck of a lot (millions of metric tons) which means it would take an enormous amount of energy to move anywhere - even just down the street. On the earth, it would probably collapse upon itself and crush whomever was inside, so as an armor it would seem counter-productive - not to mention all those neutrons decaying into protons and beta particles, which would irradiate the occupants of the armor.

If a ball of neutrons were a stable configuration of sub-atomic particles, every nuclear reactor would create one, because they are chock-full of free neutrons, floating around. They'd collect piles of them on the bottom of the reactor.
Neutrons don't accumulate in a reactor, which has normal atomic densities. Neutrons scatter and are absorbed by the fuel, coolant/moderator and structural materials. There are many more atoms (nuclei) than neutrons. A neutron flux in a power reactor is on the order of 1014 n/cm2-s, while the atomic density is on the order of 1022 n/cc.


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