Ideal Rolling: static friction and temperature

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of ideal rolling, specifically focusing on the role of static friction and temperature in real-world tire performance compared to the theoretical model of rolling without slipping. Participants explore the implications of tire deformation, energy loss, and the effects of slipping during various driving conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants define ideal rolling as the condition where the distance covered on the ground equals the arc length rotated, emphasizing that it involves only static friction and no work done by the tire on the road.
  • Others argue that tire deformation is a significant factor in heat generation, as real tires do not have an infinitesimally small contact area and undergo constant deformation during rolling.
  • One participant introduces the idea that rolling objects may extract kinetic energy from deforming the ground, leading to what is termed "rolling friction." However, this perspective is contested by others who assert that the energy primarily goes into the tire itself.
  • Another participant discusses "hysteresis loss," explaining that the tire heats up due to energy loss when the rubber is compressed, which is not fully recovered as the tire returns to shape.
  • A participant shares a mathematical model for understanding tire slip, introducing the concept of longitudinal slip angle and noting that real tires experience some degree of slip during braking or acceleration.
  • Concerns are raised about the accuracy of a referenced website, with one participant pointing out that the diagram does not accurately represent the deformation of the tire versus the ground, highlighting the vertical nature of contact forces.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the mechanics of tire deformation, energy transfer, and the implications of slipping. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the primary factors contributing to tire heating and performance.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their understanding of the interactions between tire deformation and ground contact, as well as the complexities of energy transfer during rolling. There are also unresolved mathematical steps related to the slip angle and its effects.

Crosson
Messages
1,256
Reaction score
4
Ideal rolling is rolling without slipping. Precisely, it is when the distance covered on the ground is equal to the arc length rotated through the circle during any time interval.

Since rolling involves only static friction (as opposed to kinetic friction in rolling with slipping), the force between the tire and the road does no work. So we would expect that an ideal tire would not heat up.

Real tires heat up a lot. It is easy to calculate the force of friction, and the work done (by measuring temperature of the rubber and pressure of the air before and after the test trip and acounting for the road heating the tire), and in this way calculate the total distance that your tire "slipped" during the trip.

I am curious how close real tires are to the ideal of rolling without slipping.
 
Science news on Phys.org
I think one of the key differences is a tyre's deformation. In real life, we don't have an infintessimally small contact area. A rolling tyre is constantly squishing inwards (radially) and outwards (axially) in order to provide a contact area with the surface it is rolling upon. This (rather than any dynamic friction) gives rise to most of the heat produced by the tyre, assuming that it's not skidding at all.
 
Rolling is that the "rolling object" in actuality "swimming" through the ground, i.e, kinetic energy is extracted from the rolling object in deforming the ground as it rolls along. If this kinetic energy is not transferred back to the rolling object, we get what is known as "rolling friction" acting upon the rolling object.
 
The energy goes into the tire, not the ground. The tire doesn't need to slip to heat up. The tire heats up because the energy put into the rubber as it is compressed is more than the energy the rubber gives back as it leaves the ground. This is called "hysteresis loss". It is due to the fact that the rubber is not completely elastic so that Hooke's law is not exact as it compresses and then comes back into shape.
 
Have a look at the following link:
[PLAIN]http://webphysics.davidson.edu/faculty/dmb/PY430/Friction/rolling.html[/URL]
At no point did I deny that the wheel underwent inelastic deformations as well, but what I wrote was misleading, dumb and to some extent false all the same.
Thanks for the correction.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Crosson said:
I am curious how close real tires are to the ideal of rolling without slipping.

Let
[tex]\omega_{0} = v/r[/tex]
be the angular velocity of an ideal nonslipping tire. In reality, tires always slip a little bit when exerting any force. It is customary to parametrize this by something called the longitudinal slip angle. If [tex]\omega[/tex] is the wheel's true angular velocity, then the slip angle is
[tex] S = (\omega-\omega_{0})/\omega_{0} ,[/tex]
for [tex]\omega<\omega_{0}[/tex] (braking), and otherwise
[tex] S= (\omega - \omega_{0})/\omega .[/tex]

The force exerted by the tire is then related to the slip angle by curves looking like http://code.eng.buffalo.edu/dat/sites/tire/img55.gif

So you might get up to 10% slip or so under hard braking or acceleration. Lateral slip is probably more effective at heating up a tire, but neither is the dominant effect for regular driving (as others have mentioned).
 
The trouble with that Davidson website is that anyone who looks at a car sitting on a concrete road can see the deformation of the tire, but there is no deformation of the concrete (not as shown in the diagram). The contact forces (unless you accelerate or panic stop fast enough to skid) are vertical (not as shown in the diagram). The pressure on the front end of the tire's contact area is larger than that at the back end, causing a negative torque. This is the same torque that causes a rolling rubber ball to stop.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
6K
  • · Replies 59 ·
2
Replies
59
Views
6K
  • · Replies 42 ·
2
Replies
42
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 65 ·
3
Replies
65
Views
80K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
5K
  • · Replies 60 ·
3
Replies
60
Views
5K