Real Time Decisions

[Organic]

We are in "Real Time Decisions", where the moral of few can be the real time mass destruction of countries.

First of all I am a living creature then a human being then a Jew.

My entire mother's family was slotted by the Nazis in their death camps that they built, by using their skillful engineering abilities, based on Math language that educates people to quantify everything.

On the Nazi depth camps, people where quantified, by writing numbers on their hands, before they where slotted by the Nazis, that developed a very efficient industry of death.

Let us not forget any modern atomic, chemical or biological weapons, which now in our hands and the two things that prevent from us to use it are fear of death and the sanity of the people who have these weapons.

The separation between humanity and intellectual mathematical skills that gave us a big technological leap in the last 500 years brought us to these dangerous times.

Only education can maybe help us to close this dangerous gap between morality and technological skills.

In my opinion one of the things that have to be done is to put in the first place the structural complexity of each explored element.

I think that this kind of educational point of view can help us to develop a non-trivial approach about complex systems that cherish their unique value, and don't give us ways to reduce humanity to quantity, as the Nazis did to my entire mother's family, before they murdered them.

This kind of approach must be the heart of Math language, because Math language is too powerful to be left without being aware to the gentleness of fine and unique complexity within each of us.

For more details please read this paper:

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/RTD.pdf

[franznietzsche]

Thats right, math is inherently evil, if it wasn't for that number crunching attitude the nazis wouldn't have hurt anyone...wanna buy some vacation land in pacoima?

Hate to break it to you, but what the nazis did has nothing to do with "math languauge." It had a hell of a lot more to do wwith nationalism, one of the most dangerous socio-psychological phenomenon in history. As good old Friedrich nietzsche pointed out, nationalism should and must be avoided or else it will lead to the most terrifying and bloody wars the world has ever seen, i.e WWI-II. It had absolutely nothing to do with "math languauge".

That aside, wouldn't this be better suited to the philosophy section, not theory development?

[EL]

Originally posted by franznietzsche
math is inherently evil

Here is the proof of this:
According to the Lebesgue measure almost all real numbers in any closed intervall are satanic, i.e. contains the sequence 666 somewhere in its decimal expansion. Hence math is evil. Q.E.D.
[;)]

[Organic]

You missed the point, there is no an objective thing like Math without people who teach and learn it.

I am talking about the ability of people to use Math language as an educational tool that teaching people to quantify everything, without taking care about the inner complexity of the quantified elements.

[Hurkyl]

Yet, math deals with lots of things that aren't quantities, like sets, topologies, graphs, fields, polynomials, ...

[franznietzsche]

Originally posted by Organic

I am talking about the ability of people to use Math language as an educational tool that teaching people to quantify everything, without taking care about the inner complexity of the quantified elements.

I've never been taught to quantify anything that isn't a number. For anyone with anything resembling a brain what you're describing is at best laughable, meaning no one with any intellect would fall into that error of quantifying things that aren't numbers.

[Organic]

franznietzsche,

Even numbers cannot be trivialy quantified if we do not ignore their inner structures.

Take for example the inner structures of the natural numbers, that ignored by standard Math:

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/POV.pdf


For more details please look at:

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/CATpage.html

[matt grime]

Of course the non-moralistic view of mathematics never gave us anything good either. The engineers who designed dialysis machines, ambulances, the contradictorily good but evil weapons that allowed us tio defeat the Nazis, the architects and civil engineers who design schools and hospitals... they must have been using a different maths to the Nazis, good maths. Though one wonders what maths the people who designed the bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki used.

[Chen]

Kain had killed Abel long before he knew how to do 1 + 1. Evil is an inherent characteristic of men, not mathematics or science. Mathematics per se is not evil, it is men that decides whether to put it to good use or not. The Nazis would have slaughtered my family whether they knew math or not.

[Organic]

Yet, math deals with lots of things that aren't quantities, like sets, topologies, graphs, fields, polynomials, ...

And how do you measure all these things?

[matt grime]

Originally posted by Organic
And how do you measure all these things?

We do not wish to measure them. We have no need to measure them. Mathematics is not just about "measuring" things, it is far richer than that. Why do you wish to assign arbitrary "measured" values (moral or otherwise) to abstract things? For that matter define "measure". We know, you hate defining things, sorry. Are you one of those people who thinks it mathematically valid to mark films out of 10? I remember someone asking me once if when trying to a stats project it was ok to assign a number to hair colour, and then average the number to get the average hair colour... the mind boggles. (And he didn't mean assign the colour to its wavelength before anyone asks.)

We can assign quantities to objects such as cardinalities of fields, of the generating set for the topology, orders to groups (and their elements), degree and numbers of (real) roots of a polynomial (defined over R)... Is any of that what you mean?

[Organic]

There are a lot of reasons internal and external why people hurt each other.

One of the things is an educational process that exchanges the simple with the trivial.

The standard Natural numbers are trivial elements because standard Math language, which is a powerful educational tool, don't research the inner complexity of the structural information that standing in the basis of the Natural numbers.

This trivial point of view on the complexity of real life phenomena, help to create more non-moralistic people by teaching them to look on things only from a technical point of view where purpose and morality are automatically cut out.

Vagueness is taught to be a problem that we have to eliminate by more rigorous definitions, soft borders and uncertain things must be clarified in any price, including the destruction of the explored things.

Because Math language became the most powerful way of thinking of mankind, we must do the best we can to develop it as a language which its inner properties supports and develop a non-trivial point of view on the real world.

If we don't do that it will not happened, and the combination of technical power and trivial way of thinking, can put an end to the existing of mankind.

[Organic]

Why do you wish to assign arbitrary "measured" values (moral or otherwise) to abstract things?

Arbitrary things are part of real life, redundancy and uncertainty too.

We don't have to fight against them but to use them in creative ways, which are based on open heart and mind.

Abstract models can easily become trivial if they escape from real life complexity.

And the most important thing is that mathematicians do not include their cognition’s abilities to create Math as a legal part of Math development.

For example:

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/count.pdf


Matt,

If you speack about definitions then please define "definition".

[matt grime]

look it up in a dictionary, or are you going to pull the redutcio ad absurdum on defining things? A slightly pointless philosophical debate.

I know what the natural numbers are, what they do, as most people do. You probably ought to look up meta-mathemaitcs or read a book on logic theory; the way you make these pronouncements implies that you actaully know what you're talking about. When did you become an expert on every single bit of mathematics that has ever been written?

In another thread you demanded that things be well defined too by citing some other allegedly over-looked person.

[Organic]

I am not an expert in anything, thanks god.

Experts cut real life in an artificial and trivial way that does not concern the gentle incomes that can change the all pictures of their expertise.

Let us talk about the inner information structure of the natural numbers:

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/ETtable.pdf

Please prove by your rigorous definitions that my information structures are not legal mathematical elements.

[matt grime]

I don't think you understand the objections to your lack of definition.

Take the term 'uncertainty' you use in these tree diagrams. Now, I don't need you to define the meaning of the *word* uncertainty, nor at the moment do I care about why you're using the term in this context (ie what analogy you're using with, say, the uncertainty of Heisenberg, more of him later). What I want is for you to offer a definition which allows someone else to say, ah! this tree diagram has a "degree of uncertainty", that's all. Perhaps it is something to do with the shape of the tree, or the pattern in the leaves. The thing is no one knows what you mean.

Take Heisenberg. We have his uncertainty principle. Just saying that doesn't tell us anything. It is a statement involving the ratios of certain integrals, that we can use to explain some phenomenon that has a whiff of "uncertianty" (of simultaneously evaluating integrals) about it.


The pdf you attach is not rigorous anything - it is just a picture. I don't know what you are trying to say with it.

Here's another example

\oplus X_i \to \oplus X_i \to holim(X_i) \to X_i[1]

where the first map is 1-shift.

There you go! that's what I study, so now do you understand my mathematics?

[Organic]

The pdf you attach is not rigorous anything - it is just a picture

Please define "rigorous".

[matt grime]

Ok, you don't like that? How about, the pdf doesn't inform me of anything? Tell me what you're using that diagram for? What you want to do with it? It's just a picture, it no more illuminates a mathematical idea than Frans Hals's Laughing Cavalier if you don't tell me what it is! I know it's a picture of some structural property of something. But? And? So? What next? Am I supposed to guess?

Is it a diagram showing all the trees with 1,2,3, and 4 levels for whatever set of rules you have for deeming a tree 'valid'? I think it is but it is not remotely self explanatory, nor did you offer any explanation of it in the post where you gave the link.

Now, are you going to justify why the distinuished elements in each set, the blue ones, have the label "the common natural numbers"?

And in what sense these form the "proper natural numbers" of your theory? perhaps by explaining what you mean by complementary.

You don't explain what you write, Organic, it is not that it is necessarily wrong. We often cannot even decipher what you write.

[Organic]

Matt,

A lot of interesting things in Math cannot be reduced to rigorous definitions, for example:

Please write rigorous definitions to find in one step any prime number.

At this stage my trees has an algorithm that define them.

Those trees shows the transitions between symmetry degrees.

For example please look at this example and if you understand it try to translate it to your language:

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/HelpIsNeeded.pdf

Please concentrate on the piano-model.

More details you can find here:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16502&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

[matt grime]

A rigorous definition to FIND a prime number?

Does p is prime iff whenever p|ab implies either p|a or p|b, and p is not a unit, not count? That is a perfectly rigorous definition of a prime element in N.

I'm at a loss as to how a definition FINDS anything though.

[Organic]

Bautiful,

Now can you use this definition to find if any arbitrary n is a prime or not?

[matt grime]

Yes, give me n, write down all the factorizations of n, if there are any other than 1*n or n*1 then we can conlcude n is not prime, as n|n and any other factorization implies n divides two numbers both smaller than n. Will that do for you? That method works for any n. It is computationally hard, but it works.

[Organic]

So definition itself is not enough we need some algorithm, isn’t it?

[matt grime]

Who said we didn't? If we don't define prime though how can we even test for primality? Didn't you notice the bit where I said 'I'm at a loss as to how a definition FINDS anything'? That isn't what a definition does really, is it?

[franznietzsche]

Originally posted by Organic
So definition itself is not enough we need some algorithm, isn’t it?

That must be worthy of a fields medal. I mean how could you be so stupid matt? this guys is obviously rights. I means, numbers isn't quantifiable, they is descriptive.


P.S

Originally posted by Organic
At this stage my trees has an algorithm that define them.


At this stage my souls has died.

[Organic]

Introduction


If we examine the content of a set in terms of the symmetry concept, we can find at least two levels of symmetries that can be ordered by their simplicity degrees.

The most symmetrical and simplest content is Emptiness, which is represented by the empty set notation { } = content does not exist.

On top of this simplicity we can define two opposite types of symmetry contents,
{__} and {._. .} .

Let power 0 be the simplest level of existence of some set's content.

{__} is an infinite non-localized element (which is a one and only one pointless/segmentless element) that notated as 0^0 = 1 (1 continuum)

(A segment is the shortest interval that existing between any two given points, and no points or subsegments included in it)

{._. .} is infinitely many elements that are notated as oo^0 = 1 (connector XOR point)

(connector is any segment which existing between any two given points)

So, what we get is this basic information structure: {._. .} {___}
{ }
Let { } be E simplicity or Esim (E for Emptiness).

Let {___} be Csim (C for Continuum).

Let {._. .} be Dsim (D for Discreteness).

~ = NOT

Any transformation from {} to {__} or {._. .} is based on phase transition, because we have |{}|(=0) to ~|{}|(=~0) transition.

A Csim and a Dsim are opposites because Csim is a one continuum and Dsim is finite or infinitely many elements.

The above identification is based on the structure property, and it can not be done by the quantity property, because Csim XOR Dsim are exclusively = 1 .

So, in the case of the symmetry concept, the structure property is more sensitive than the quantity property, when we examine them by the information concept.

If we want to go beyond the information about the existence of Csim XOR Dsim,
we have to associate between them, by changing XOR to AND connective.

By doing this we can define elements that have properties, which are combinations of Esim, Csim and Dsim.



Let us find a definition for existence under Complementary Associations Theory (CAT) :

Existence

Definition AA: Un-explorable Existence is a state of some opposite concepts,
before there is any mutual influence on each opposite's property.

Example: Light before turning into darkness, darkness before turning into light.


Definition BB: Explorable Existence is a state of some opposite concepts,
where there is a mutual influence between their opposite properties.

Example: Light turning into darkness, darkness turning into light.



Let us write the CAT's axiom and definitions.

The Axiom of exploration:
Explorable is any association between Csim AND Dsim.

Definition A:
Explorable Product (EP) exists iff it is an association between Continuum (Csim) and Discreteness (Dsim) concepts, so CD is Csim AND Dsim .


Now, let us answer some questions:

Q: What is an "association"?
A: Association is any possible mutual influence between opposite concepts.

Q: What is an "explorable product"?
A: According to definition BB, it is the element coming from association,
and it can be explored.

Definition B:
Association-Level (AL) is an invariant quantity, being kept through CD associations.

Definition C:
Computational Root (CR) is EP in AL.

(An example of definitions B and C:
. . . . . . . . .
| | | | | | | | |
| | | |___|_ | |___| |
| | | | | | |
|___|___|_ |_______| |_______|
| | |
CR quantity is being kept through CD associations)

Definition D:
Redundancy and Uncertainty (RU) concepts, are used as invariant structural degree of CR, determining its exact position in AL (there is an algorithm for this).


Definition E:
Full RU (FRU) is the first CR in AL.

Definition F:
Not RU (~RU) is the last CR in AL.

Definition G:
Partial RU (PRU) is any CR which is not FRU and not ~RU.

An example of definitions E, F and G:
. . . . . . . . .
| | | | | | | | |
| | | |___|_ | |___| |
| | | | | | |
|___|___|_ |_______| |_______|
| | |
FRU CR PRU CR ~RU CR


A general graphic description of a CR


. . .<------ D (Discreteness)
| | |
| | |
| | |<------ The association between CD
| | |
| | |
|_____|_____|__<---- RU marker
| ^
| \____ C (Continuum)
|
|<---- Next-AL marker


If we connect ideas coming from Information Theory and Topology, then we can use a concept like symmetry, to describe a connection between structure and information's clarity-degree, for example:

<-Redundancy->
c c c ^<----Uncertainty
b b b | b b
a a a | a a c a b c
. . . v . . . . . .
| | | | | | | | |
| | | |___|_ | |___| |
| | | | | | |
|___|___|_ |_______| |_______|
| | |
FRU CR PRU CR ~RU CR

The uncertainty is based on XOR connective between a,b,c,...

This example describes AL 3 and we can see the connection between structure's symmetry-degree and information's clarity-degree, determining CR's exact position in AL 3.

Because RU concepts are not used in ZF or Peano's axioms, all their number system is limited to ~RU CR, therefore their number system is a proper subset of CAT's number system.

Some claim that using sequences instead of sets can do it, but we use the RU concepts as the fundamentals of all information structures, where ~RU is a private case of some information structure, that used as the information structure of ZF or Peano's axioms.

[Hurkyl]

Q: What is an "association"?
A: Association is any possible mutual influence between opposite concepts.

Q: What is an "explorable product"?
A: According to definition BB, it is the element coming from association,
and it can be explored.


Could you demonstrate how to derive these statements from the definitions:


Definition AA: Un-explorable Existence is a state of some opposite concepts,
before there is any mutual influence on each opposite's property.

Definition BB: Explorable Existence is a state of some opposite concepts,
where there is a mutual influence between their opposite properties.

Explorable Product (EP) exists iff it is an association between Continuum (Csim) and Discreteness (Dsim) concepts, so CD is Csim AND Dsim .

[Organic]

Hi Hurkyl,

Please let us do it step by step.

Please write only one problem at a time, and I'll try to answer.

Thank you.


Organic

[Hurkyl]

Association is any possible mutual influence between opposite concepts.


Could you demonstrate how to derive this statement from the definitions:



Definition AA: Un-explorable Existence is a state of some opposite concepts,
before there is any mutual influence on each opposite's property.

Definition BB: Explorable Existence is a state of some opposite concepts,
where there is a mutual influence between their opposite properties.

Explorable Product (EP) exists iff it is an association between Continuum (Csim) and Discreteness (Dsim) concepts, so CD is Csim AND Dsim .

[matt grime]

Hurkyl, I've found a great therapy. Just define, rigorously your favourite mathematical object, and assign arbitrary names to properties, preferably the ones Organic is using. It is most refreshing.
Don't justify why you've chosen those names. Perhaps it might force him to explain what he means. Obviosly I won't be holding my breath.

[Organic]

Association is any possible mutual influence between opposite concepts.




Could you demonstrate how to derive this statement from the definitions:



Definition AA: Un-explorable Existence is a state of some opposite concepts,
before there is any mutual influence on each opposite's property.

Definition BB: Explorable Existence is a state of some opposite concepts,
where there is a mutual influence between their opposite properties.

Explorable Product (EP) exists iff it is an association between Continuum (Csim) and Discreteness (Dsim) concepts, so CD is Csim AND Dsim .
_________________
Hurkyl



There are two levels to CAT, one is general, the second is mathematical.

The mathematical aspect of CAT is the association at least between two opposite information forms:

1) The local map form {.} (a map between a singleton to itself).

2) The non-local map form {._.} (a map between at least two different singletons).

The associations are between non-local maps to sub-non-local maps and/or local maps, for example:


__ . is like {} = Csim XOR Dsim = Non EP

.
| is like {{}} = Csim AND Dsim = CD = EP


An example:


local maps = Dism
| | |
v v v
. . .
| | |
| | | = CD
| | |
._______.
^
|
Non-local map = Csim


Sub-non-local maps = Dsim
| | |
v v v
.__.__.__.
| | | |
| | | | = CD
| | | |
.________.
^
|
Non-local map = Csim


sub-non-local maps local-map = Dsim
| | |
v v v
.__.__. .
| | | |
| | | | = CD
| | | |
.________.
^
|
Non-local map = Csim

[Hurkyl]

Could you demonstrate how to derive this statement from the definitions you gave?

"Association is any possible mutual influence between opposite concepts."

[Janitor]

I don't know if you are aware of this, but you have a quirky way of using the English language. Simple minds like mine have a hard time following you. Most people would say either "between A and B" or "from A to B," depending on the intended context. You, on the other hand, say "between A to B," as in "between a singleton to itself."

[Organic]

Hurkyl,

Could you demonstrate how to derive this statement from the definitions you gave?

"Association is any possible mutual influence between opposite concepts."

I alredy gave a complete answer in my previous post.

Please tell me what you don't understand in it.

[Hurkyl]

I alredy gave a complete answer in my previous post.

Please tell me what you don't understand in it.

My complaint is that you did not use any of the definitions you stated.

[Organic]

My complaint is that you did not use any of the definitions you stated.

Please show us a detailed example.

[Hurkyl]

An example of you not using your definitions?

There are two levels to CAT, one is general, the second is mathematical.

The mathematical aspect of CAT is the association at least between two opposite information forms:

1) The local map form {.} (a map between a singleton to itself).

2) The non-local map form {._.} (a map between at least two different singletons).

The associations are between non-local maps to sub-non-local maps and/or local maps, for example:


__ . is like {} = Csim XOR Dsim = Non EP

.
| is like {{}} = Csim AND Dsim = CD = EP


An example:


local maps = Dism
| | |
v v v
. . .
| | |
| | | = CD
| | |
._______.
^
|
Non-local map = Csim


Sub-non-local maps = Dsim
| | |
v v v
.__.__.__.
| | | |
| | | | = CD
| | | |
.________.
^
|
Non-local map = Csim


sub-non-local maps local-map = Dsim
| | |
v v v
.__.__. .
| | | |
| | | | = CD
| | | |
.________.
^
|
Non-local map = Csim

[Organic]

An example of you not using your definitions?

Sorry, but I don't see something which is not based on my definitions.

[Hurkyl]

Whether or not what you wrote is based on the definitions, you most certainly did not use the definitions at all.

[Organic]

Please give one detailed example that clearly demonstrates your claim.

[Hurkyl]

association at least between two opposite information forms

Where does the phrase "information forms" appear in your definitions?

[Organic]

You mean "opposite information forms".

In Mathematics these information forms are continuum(=Csim) and discreteness(=Dsim).

[Janitor]

Okay, I am going to open a beer and really study Organic's links to figure out what he is trying to do.

[Janitor]

Okay, this is what I am getting so far. Organic likes to label trees with units inside of parentheses, and the more symmetrically the parentheses are nested, the greater the symmetry degree he assigns to it (though not in a quantitative way, that I can see), and the lower the degree of clarity he assigns to it (though he does not quantify "clarity" either, that I have seen so far).

Organic's "structural identification" chart is starting to look like a Hebrew manuscript to me. Also, my room is starting to spin a little bit.

[Janitor]

orgamic;s thoery is making sum sense to me know also Ienstein & Hawkins always saids that pi starts out as 3.14592 but that it keeps geting biegger as you go faster and when you go to light speeds or is past that you now it gets to be infenitty so pi is infenitte in that sense

conjexure---- all big numbers is prime numbers this disprooves russel;s pairofdocs abouit sets and it seams to me that if

[Janitor]

forgot whut i Was gonna sAy ohyeah orgasnic numbers is just wurmholes in teh numbrline beeCAUS kirz woodn eyes a spoun of zilc mades it taht waigh

[matt grime]

Janitor, by jove I think you've got it. At least it makes as much sense as anything else.

[Janitor]

Matt, I came up with a really cool proof last night that pi is infinity. But the margins of my TV Guide were too small to contain my proof, and I'll be danged if I can remember how to do the proof this morning.
:mad:

[Organic]

Good morning Janitor,

To be drunk is a legal state by my Math point of view.

[Janitor]

A bright and sunny day here. My apologies to you, to Einstein, to Hawking, and to Russell for any mischaracterization of your ideas that I may have promulgated last night.

[matt grime]

Good morning Janitor,

To be drunk is a legal state by my Math point of view.

As long as you aren't going to derive. Ba-boom tscch. Where's Hurkyl's drum roll smiley when you want it. I'm almost ashamed to post this. But then no one I would care about would take anything in this thread too seriously

[Organic]

You Know Matt?

The MAD magazine has beautiful pictures of jokes without any descriptions related to them.

You see them and you laugh.

Pay attention to this "NO DESCRIPTIONS" and you laugh!

http://hem.fyristorg.com/ulf.crona/MAD/pages/bomb.htm

It is a magic isn't it?

[Janitor]

Drunk deriving is nothing for you guys to be joking about.

[matt grime]

At least it's one dui that George W. Bush won't do.

[Organic]

Yah,,

Say it to Matt,