Intutive understanding of entropy

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    Entropy
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the intuitive understanding of entropy, exploring its definitions and implications in various contexts, including thermodynamics and information theory. Participants also touch on the relationship between entropy and concepts like dark matter and dark energy.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant requests an intuitive definition of entropy and questions the independence of certain integrals related to entropy.
  • Another participant suggests referring to textbooks or course notes for foundational understanding.
  • A participant presents two perspectives on entropy: one relating to energy exchange in systems reaching equilibrium and another based on counting microstates in statistical mechanics.
  • Concerns are raised about whether dark matter and dark energy complicate the concept of entropy, particularly in the context of the accelerating universe.
  • One participant defines entropy as a measure of energy transfer per state.
  • A distinction is made between statistical entropy, which relates to microstates, and informational entropy, which is linked to information theory and Shannon's law, noting that their relationship is debated.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature and implications of entropy, with no consensus reached on its definitions or the impact of dark matter and dark energy on the concept.

Contextual Notes

Some definitions and interpretations of entropy depend on specific contexts, such as thermodynamics versus information theory, and the discussion reflects various assumptions and perspectives without resolving them.

pardesi
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can someone please define entropy intutively to me
also is that [tex]\int_{i}^{f}\frac{dq}{T}[/tex] independent of the path or
[tex]\int_{i}^{f}\frac{dq_{rev}}{T}[/tex]
 
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Have you tried looking in a textbook, or in your course notes? These should be the first port of call, since your teacher knows the level of knowledge that you have, and so can scale the answer suitably.

Here's a link to a good physics website which may help you: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html#c4
 
Entropy is - to me still - a strange concept. There are two ways to look at it.

The first is from an intuitive point of view. We (at least I, hopefully you too) know that the infinitesimal change in energy of a system is
dE = T dS - p dV + [itex]\mu[/itex] dN
with E energy, T temperature, S entropy, p pressure, V volume, [itex]\mu[/itex] chemical potential and N number of particles.

If you bring two systems into contact, they will flow until the temperature, pressure and chemical potential are equal. To get the pressure equal, they will exchange volume (when allowed; for example, if you have a box with a movable wall, the wall will go to that position where the pressure in both parts is equal). To get the chemical potential equal, they will exchange particles (when allowed; for example through a permeable membrane). To get the temperature equal, heat flows from one system into another, you could consider entropy the quantity (whatever it is) that is exchanged to reach equilibrium.

Yet another way to introduce entropy is by the microcanonical ensemble. What you actually do is, given the energy of a system, count the number of microstates g it can be in. As these numbers often get very large, we can introduce entropy as the logarithm of this number, so that numbers in the order of [itex]10^{23}[/itex] get order 23, which is more managable.

By the way, a book I can recommend to you is "Thermal Physics" by Charles Kittel / Herbert Kroemer. It's a very gentle and intuitive introduction to thermal physics.
 
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Doesn't dark mattter and dark energy (assuming these exist) mess up the concept of entropy? For example, the fact that galaxies appear to be accelerating away from each other (rather than decelerating)?
 
Dude

Entropy is a measure of energy transfer per state.
 
There are two definitions of entropy as I understand it, Statistical entropy and entropy with regard to information theory.

Statistical entropy (from memory) is an expression of the number of micro-states that can occupy a particular macro-state. Entropy with regard to information theory is the inverse of another abstract quantity - information, and is tied in with Shannon's law. The relation between statistical entropy and "informational" entropy is a subject of debate.

Claude.
 

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