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View Full Version : Logic + Definability (R,<)


moo5003
Oct25-07, 05:08 PM
1. The problem statement, all variables and given/known data

What subsets of the real line R are definable in (R;<)? What subsets of the plan R x R are definable in (R:<)?


3. The attempt at a solution

R and the empty set are the only definable subsets of (R;<) since:

x to x+1
Is an automorphism and changes all subsets except for R and the empty set, therefore those subsets are the only possible definable subsets.

R(x) := All x ~(x<x)

ie: All real numbers hold this property

Empty Set (x) := All x (x<x)

ie: Nothing holds this property.

Question: When answering the second part of this question for RxR. I'm not completley sure how you can say (a,b) < (c,d). My answer which I'm a little unsure of right now is that you can define (R,a) and (R,a) for some fixed a. (As well as the empty set). Any help would be appreciated.

HallsofIvy
Oct25-07, 07:11 PM
Perhaps it would help if you defined "definable"! What is the definition of "definable set" you are using?

You can't say (a,b)< (c,d). That's why you problem says "(R: <)". The order relation is still on the real numbers.

AKG
Oct25-07, 08:45 PM
x to x+1 doesn't change the set Z.