you guys are gonna think im either stupid or crazy

[Arsonade]

nice title huh, ok now i know that by saying this im getting the instant reputation of an idiot, belive me, i know about einstein's theory of relitivity and the first 2 laws of thermodynamics, but belive it or not i have made a perpetual motion mechine. at this point, i bet most of you are thinking about closing this message, but i really would like some feedback on your reasoning about my invention, uh...im not so sure i should show the details mostly for patent reasons (any info on pattent details ex:what i can and cant do, would be appreciated), but i can assure you all that it works. my main question to you however is why dont you think it could work, i need to see if i can debate this, i already have debated friction, rate of acceleration (makes sence in the design), einstein's theorys, and even harnessing the energy produced. I'd appreciate any help you can give me but i really would be more likely to reply to an e-mail or an IM, my e-mail is AdamChess4@aol.com and my AIM screen name is AdamChess4.

Adam

P.S. i have a bad fealling that im posting this in the wrong section, maybe theoretical physics?

[Doc Al]

P.S. i have a bad fealling that im posting this in the wrong section, maybe theoretical physics?
I'm going to move this to Theory Development.

[mee]

Does it rely on the heat of the sun to work? Will it work if in the vacuum of space at low temperatures? If it only works at earth temperatures, I think you need to say that it needs something that is not perpetual to work such as fusion from the sun.

[Brad_Ad23]

nice title huh, ok now i know that by saying this im getting the instant reputation of an idiot, belive me, i know about einstein's theory of relitivity and the first 2 laws of thermodynamics, but belive it or not i have made a perpetual motion mechine. at this point, i bet most of you are thinking about closing this message, but i really would like some feedback on your reasoning about my invention, uh...im not so sure i should show the details mostly for patent reasons (any info on pattent details ex:what i can and cant do, would be appreciated), but i can assure you all that it works. my main question to you however is why dont you think it could work, i need to see if i can debate this, i already have debated friction, rate of acceleration (makes sence in the design), einstein's theorys, and even harnessing the energy produced. I'd appreciate any help you can give me but i really would be more likely to reply to an e-mail or an IM, my e-mail is AdamChess4@aol.com and my AIM screen name is AdamChess4.

Adam

P.S. i have a bad fealling that im posting this in the wrong section, maybe theoretical physics?


Oh no! You've proven the laws of physics wrong! Just you! Your little idea is so much better than the millions of ones that have also failed throughout all of recent history. And so rather than go and demonstrate this publically for all to witness and see, you decide to post it here, on the internet.

My opinon,
Stupid and crazy.

[ophecleide]

Everything I know (or think I know) about the universe says that what you are saying is not true, so I have an extremely difficult time believing you.

If you were to tell us a little more info about it, I think we'd have a much easier time figuring out why it won't work. For example, does it use electricity? Does it rely on any external forces? There are so many ways you could build something which seams like a perpetual motion machine, it's hard to tell where to start.

[Antonio Lao]

For perpetual motion to be possible, all conservation laws of physics must be invalidated. There are many. But for this discussion, I'm just going to mention the three following conservation laws of physics.

1. Energy (time symmetry)
2. linear momentum (translation symmetry)
3. Angular momentum (rotation symmetrry)

For perpetual motion, the conversion of energy or motion must be symmetrical from both directions. It takes energy to produce energy. These energy are in different forms. For example, Chemical to electrical, nuclear to electrical, heat to mechanical, mechanical to electrical. The reverse processes are not all possible.

For perpetual motion, the entropy of the universe must be a constant or, more precisely, zero. The bad news is the entropy is found to be increasing toward the heat death of maximum entropy.

It requires less effort to go downhill than to go uphill linear momentum is not symmetrical up and down.

It requires more effort to rotate against the spin of the earth.

Bottomline is: For perpetual motion to work, there must be no motion to start with. This is more than just a contradiction.

[russ_watters]

Most perpetual motion mistakes/hoaxes are input/output issues. Make sure you understand completely what you are inputting and outputting. Take special notice of time, ie, any input for any amount of time has to be added together before subtracting out the output. Make sure you know the difference between power and work. Make sure you take into account consumables. And last (and most important): have you built it? How long has it been running? Is it connected to a power source of any kind for any reason (you may think thats trivial, but it isn't)?

Thats pretty much all I can say without more info on what your device does.

Regarding patents. Depending on how you approach the patent, the USPTO won't even review an application for a perpetual motion device unless you submit a functioning model and it successfully runs for a year, completely self-contained.

[Arsonade]

ok, first for "mee", the cold of a vacum is not a problem, it would not be in space or use energy from the sun. next, "Brad_ad23" hey man im not sayin im any smarter than they are, i think i just had the right inspiration as stupid as it sounds, and as for not displaying this publicly, dude, this is public! i meen not a huge # of people go to this site but as far as i know nobody has to pay to get in, what do you want me to do? make a billboard in front of my house saying "I HAVE A PERPETUAL MOTION MECHINE!" common man. now to ophecleide, this is my serios problem, idont know if i should show people publicly my designs, this sounds a little conceeded, but if i lost my pattent like that id never forgive myself man, i realize that all of these laws of physics prove me wrong, but the only explination i can give is that i think i have found a loophole in those laws. :redface: , now to Antonio Lao, well technicly, i am converting electromagnetic energy to mechanical to electric (technicly electromagnetic i know) . "Bottomline is: For perpetual motion to work, there must be no motion to start with. This is more than just a contradiction." technicly, my PMM does start out with no motion. ok and last but not least russ_watters, man i cannot thank you enough for the patent info, ive been looking for that stuff for a while, and thanks for the help rather than criticisim (although technicly i was asking for critisisim in the first place...watever) unfortunatly i have not built it yet, it would require a lot of money and space to produce safely. im not sure what you meen by "connected to a power source" yes there would be a genorator in the unit to harness the mechanical energy of the axle, like a turbine in a dam. i can keep a genorator on because otherwise, the spining of the mechanisim would cause it to essencially explode, just enough friction of a genorator would contradict this, but essencially, no, the genorator is not necacary. In concluson, i really would want to show this design to you, I know that by sending the design to myself and not opening the letter, it assures that that idea was mine, but im not sure if it still aplies if i show the design to someone elce, any info on this russ_watters? :smile:

Adam

[revesz]

tell us you idea, its not going to be stollen from you, its going to be proved wrong.

[Brad_Ad23]

tell us you idea, its not going to be stollen from you, its going to be proved wrong.

Exactly.

I've been around PF for awhile, and I've seen the likes of these people with their claims all the time, and they are always of some similar basic nature. Believe me when I say this: If there was a perpetual energy machine possible, it would already be in place.

Alas, it seems Theory Development should be called something else now a days. something like Crank Ideas or something of the like. A theory is much more sophisticated and a much higher title of respect for a group of ideas than are in here.

[russ_watters]

im not sure what you meen by "connected to a power source" yes there would be a genorator in the unit to harness the mechanical energy of the axle, like a turbine in a dam. There is a guy here who keeps posting perpetual motion machine ideas and they generally have an external power source providing what he calls a "control signal." Needless to say, this "control signal" is where all of the output power comes from.

Since you are worried about showing your idea to us, there isn't any way for us to help you. My recommendation is find someone you trust who knows a lot about science/engineering to look over your idea. You could probably hire a grad student pretty cheap if you're short on cash - and put in writing that he can't take any of your ideas.

[WWW]

Law number 1 in a non-entropic system is:

The system (in any level of it) must be opened.

Since you keep the knowledge of it as any closed system, your own idea is under the laws of TD2.

Shortly speaking, a real idea of a non-TD2 system must not be closed to public, because if this is really a non-TD2 system, then it will change all of us in any aspect of what we call existence, including you Arsonade.

So, Arsonade do you afraid to be chaneged, or not?

[Antonio Lao]

As I recall, Tesla tried to build a perpetual motion machine. At first, many rich people gave him money as investments but because the machine was never completed, investors started to retract their interests. Tesla died a poor and lonely man.

[LURCH]

... I know that by sending the design to myself and not opening the letter, it assures that that idea was mine, but im not sure if it still aplies if i show the design to someone elce...
Adam

Yes it still applies. When you send the design to yourself, put your own address and the postage stamp on the wrong side of the envelope. The stamp(s) should be accross the seal of the flap. This will function like the old-fasshioned "seals" that used to be placed on confidential documents (like "sealed orders"). When the envelope passes through the post office, it will be postmarked, and the postmark will be over the stamp.

Now, because the stamp is placed in such a location that the envelope could not have been opened after the stamp was in place without ripping the stamp, and the postmark is over the stamp, you now have proof that whatever is in the envelope must have been there before the date on the postmark. Anyone trying to patent your same design after that date will be proved as a fraud.

[Noah]

As I recall, Tesla tried to build a perpetual motion machine. At first, many rich people gave him money as investments but because the machine was never completed, investors started to retract their interests. Tesla died a poor and lonely man.

Tesla tried to harness the energy of the earth as an unlimited power source. He understood the laws of thermodynamics. Investors started to retract their interests because of bad media around Tesla. Good inventor, bad business man.

[pallidin]

Yes it still applies. When you send the design to yourself, put your own address and the postage stamp on the wrong side of the envelope. The stamp(s) should be accross the seal of the flap. This will function like the old-fasshioned "seals" that used to be placed on confidential documents (like "sealed orders"). When the envelope passes through the post office, it will be postmarked, and the postmark will be over the stamp.

Now, because the stamp is placed in such a location that the envelope could not have been opened after the stamp was in place without ripping the stamp, and the postmark is over the stamp, you now have proof that whatever is in the envelope must have been there before the date on the postmark. Anyone trying to patent your same design after that date will be proved as a fraud.


Some added thoughts. The 'sealed envelope" procedure holds very litle weight in a court of law.
Let's say "Bob" has an idea, and makes excellent engineering drawings of the device. Let's further say that "Bob" understands the general idea of a "patent", and goes so far as to even accurately write "claims" of his device that is accompanied with the drawings. Let's go one step further and say that Bob has the documents witnessed and notorized!
Bob, not having the money for a patent, decided to place the documents in an envelope and seal as described.
Let's say that Bob did all of this in June, 2000.
Now, "Jim", across the country and having absolutely no personal or professional relationship with Bob, comes up with the same idea in September, 2001. Jim decides to follow formal procedure, and scraps up the money to submit a patent. In 2003 the patent is granted to Jim.
In 2004, Bob finds out about it and challenges Jim's patent in court.
Who prevails?
Jim does, not Bob.
Why? Because the U.S. Government established the Patent and Trademark Office to be the procedure one MUST follow to be granted idea ownership, and Jim followed that procedure.
There are exceptions.
If both Bob and Jim filed on the same date, and Bob had a notorized document he kept that pre-dated Jim's, then the court will consider it. But, in this case, Bob STILL needed to file a formal patent, not just have notarized documents of ideas collecting in a drawer.
The other exception is if Bob and Jim were professionaly related, and Bob came up with the idea but could not patent it, yet had notorized documents, and Jim secretly stole the idea and patented it. Again, in this case as well, the court will consider it. This aspect is probably closer to what you are wondering about.
In the PF arena, participants could be considered "related" in a court of law, the same as if we were all physically meeting right now at the Holiday Inn, but it's up to the court to determine that.
In ANY case, pre-patent idea exchange with others is risky. The law does provide safegaurds, however.
The MOST IMPORTANT safegaurd is that a non-disclosure/non-use document be written up and signed by all interested parties, dated, witnessed and notorized. Such a document carries CONSIDERABLE legal weight in a court of law; far beyond a personal sealed envelope situation.
This procedure allows for one to get help from others as they develop the idea and still be fully protected. You don't even need a lawyer to do it!

A word of caution: Statements or descriptions of potentially patentable ideas in this or any other public forum is the same as publishing it in a magazine. Under the law, an "idea" that is so published and yet no patent filing occurs with 1 year of publication, the design is remanded to "public domain" and no patent is allowed by anyone.

In short, if you really believe your PMM idea is patentable, follow the above.
In all probability it is not patentable, however, and you likely are misunderstanding certain aspects of physics, and so you should feel free to expound on your idea here.

[Antonio Lao]

The "something" that is found in quarks and leptons and also in photons keeping them to live a long, long time is the closest thing to a perpetual motion of "something."

Nature does not want to waste time and energy. It is the smallest things that will be the most stable. Electron and proton are the smallest of their respective group and photon is the smallest among the bosons. These are the ones that are stable and live a long time. The first two forming the atoms of the universe and the third is the best messenger one can find in nature, never tiring shuttling information at the constant speed of 186,000 mi/s.

[Arsonade]

Law number 1 in a non-entropic system is:

The system (in any level of it) must be opened.

Since you keep the knowledge of it as any closed system, your own idea is under the laws of TD2.

Shortly speaking, a real idea of a non-TD2 system must not be closed to public, because if this is really a non-TD2 system, then it will change all of us in any aspect of what we call existence, including you Arsonade.

So, Arsonade do you afraid to be chaneged, or not?

man, if i was afraid of being chalenged i would never have started this post

Adam

P.S if anybody is reading these right now, im still makin relpies so h/o a sec

[Arsonade]

Exactly.

I've been around PF for awhile, and I've seen the likes of these people with their claims all the time, and they are always of some similar basic nature. Believe me when I say this: If there was a perpetual energy machine possible, it would already be in place.

Alas, it seems Theory Development should be called something else now a days. something like Crank Ideas or something of the like. A theory is much more sophisticated and a much higher title of respect for a group of ideas than are in here.

i wouldnt doubt it man, but comon, giving up on something because it hasnt been done yet seems...stupid

Adam

[Arsonade]

There is a guy here who keeps posting perpetual motion machine ideas and they generally have an external power source providing what he calls a "control signal." Needless to say, this "control signal" is where all of the output power comes from.

Since you are worried about showing your idea to us, there isn't any way for us to help you. My recommendation is find someone you trust who knows a lot about science/engineering to look over your idea. You could probably hire a grad student pretty cheap if you're short on cash - and put in writing that he can't take any of your ideas.

now i understand what you meen and no it definatly has nothing of the sort, i think your idea of double checking my designs seems good, buuut...

Some added thoughts. The 'sealed envelope" procedure holds very litle weight in a court of law.
Let's say "Bob" has an idea, and makes excellent engineering drawings of the device. Let's further say that "Bob" understands the general idea of a "patent", and goes so far as to even accurately write "claims" of his device that is accompanied with the drawings. Let's go one step further and say that Bob has the documents witnessed and notorized!
Bob, not having the money for a patent, decided to place the documents in an envelope and seal as described.
Let's say that Bob did all of this in June, 2000.
Now, "Jim", across the country and having absolutely no personal or professional relationship with Bob, comes up with the same idea in September, 2001. Jim decides to follow formal procedure, and scraps up the money to submit a patent. In 2003 the patent is granted to Jim.
In 2004, Bob finds out about it and challenges Jim's patent in court.
Who prevails?
Jim does, not Bob.
Why? Because the U.S. Government established the Patent and Trademark Office to be the procedure one MUST follow to be granted idea ownership, and Jim followed that procedure.
There are exceptions.
If both Bob and Jim filed on the same date, and Bob had a notorized document he kept that pre-dated Jim's, then the court will consider it. But, in this case, Bob STILL needed to file a formal patent, not just have notarized documents of ideas collecting in a drawer.
The other exception is if Bob and Jim were professionaly related, and Bob came up with the idea but could not patent it, yet had notorized documents, and Jim secretly stole the idea and patented it. Again, in this case as well, the court will consider it. This aspect is probably closer to what you are wondering about.
In the PF arena, participants could be considered "related" in a court of law, the same as if we were all physically meeting right now at the Holiday Inn, but it's up to the court to determine that.
In ANY case, pre-patent idea exchange with others is risky. The law does provide safegaurds, however.
The MOST IMPORTANT safegaurd is that a non-disclosure/non-use document be written up and signed by all interested parties, dated, witnessed and notorized. Such a document carries CONSIDERABLE legal weight in a court of law; far beyond a personal sealed envelope situation.
This procedure allows for one to get help from others as they develop the idea and still be fully protected. You don't even need a lawyer to do it!

A word of caution: Statements or descriptions of potentially patentable ideas in this or any other public forum is the same as publishing it in a magazine. Under the law, an "idea" that is so published and yet no patent filing occurs with 1 year of publication, the design is remanded to "public domain" and no patent is allowed by anyone.

In short, if you really believe your PMM idea is patentable, follow the above.
In all probability it is not patentable, however, and you likely are misunderstanding certain aspects of physics, and so you should feel free to expound on your idea here.

This has given me a lot to think of, i realized that the sealed envolope idea seemed very iffy but i really appreciate the advice on legaly binding this idea, i really do not have any money for a patent so i need something that costs as little as possible. Buuuuuuut...

Yes it still applies. When you send the design to yourself, put your own address and the postage stamp on the wrong side of the envelope. The stamp(s) should be accross the seal of the flap. This will function like the old-fasshioned "seals" that used to be placed on confidential documents (like "sealed orders"). When the envelope passes through the post office, it will be postmarked, and the postmark will be over the stamp.

Now, because the stamp is placed in such a location that the envelope could not have been opened after the stamp was in place without ripping the stamp, and the postmark is over the stamp, you now have proof that whatever is in the envelope must have been there before the date on the postmark. Anyone trying to patent your same design after that date will be proved as a fraud.

OK now im confused lol, no, ill get this legal stuff sorted out soon, need something to do in Spanish class right? lol

[ophecleide]

i wouldnt doubt it man, but comon, giving up on something because it hasnt been done yet seems...stupid

Adam

Let's put it this way: The probability of a perpetual motion machine being possible is extremely small because it has not been done yet, so many brilliant people have failed at producing one, and all (or almost all) of our observations about the universe tell us that it is not possible.

I concede that it is possible that for some reason, we have grossly misunderstood all these laws of physics and thermodynamics and the like and there really is a way to produce energy from nothing, but the chances of that being the case are so small, it is not even worth considering. It's like this: There is some miniscule chance that I will be killed by a meteor tomorrow, but it's so small, I won't even consider it as a factor in ANY of my decisions. IMHO, it isn't taking a slim chance, it's being stupid.

[ZelmersZoetrop]

Spanish class? It would be interesting if an undergrad or high school student overturned centuries of theory and experiment.

Unless you have found a means of harnessing vacuum flucuations (zero point energy), you do not have a perpetual motion machine. I know you've said you understand the laws of physics, so I won't repeat such laws. But perhaps you could build a small working model of this thing and leave it in your closet for a year or two to see if it still runs. Or expound on your idea here so you won't waste time and energy on a doomed patent application.

[Antonio Lao]

I have a friend who works at the patent office (he could be retired by now). And many years ago, he told me that the pile of unapproved applications is higher than Mount Everest.

[quddusaliquddus]

Another perpetual motion machine ... wishing you the best of luck

[MiGUi]

Hey, perpetual motion don't means that the machine is moving forever.
Thermodynamics says:
- It's not possible to get heat from one system and transform all of this heat into work (1st specie of perpetual motion machine).
- It's not possible that heat can not, spontaneously, go from a cold thermal focus to a hot one (2nd specie of perpetual motion machine).

So, if your machine can get a quantity of heat and transform it, completely, into work, then you are rich.
If your machine can take heat from a cold focus and leave it to a hot focus, without having to work, men... you are rich!

[russ_watters]

i wouldnt doubt it man, but comon, giving up on something because it hasnt been done yet seems...stupid

Adam Its not about giving up at all. In fact you should pursue it until you find....your error.

[Arsonade]

and there really is a way to produce energy from nothing.
who said anything about getting energy from nothing :cool: , i wont say any more on where it's coming from though, that would give it away.

Adam

P.S. i have a fealing that this reply will discourage even more of you but it still is a perpetual motion mechine, no hoax

[Arsonade]

Spanish class? It would be interesting if an undergrad or high school student overturned centuries of theory and experiment.

Unless you have found a means of harnessing vacuum flucuations (zero point energy), you do not have a perpetual motion machine. I know you've said you understand the laws of physics, so I won't repeat such laws. But perhaps you could build a small working model of this thing and leave it in your closet for a year or two to see if it still runs. Or expound on your idea here so you won't waste time and energy on a doomed patent application.

lol i was talking about the pattent information, i was going to look over the patent info in spanish, a class where i really dont pay attenetion, but thats a completely diferent subject. as for building a small working model in my closet, to safely make this think i might need a house, no matter how small, but now that i think about it...yes i could risk it, ok, now all i need is the money lol, thank you summer job lol

Adam

[Arsonade]

Another perpetual motion machine ... wishing you the best of luck

lol thanks, i have a fealing ill need it

Adam

[Arsonade]

Hey, perpetual motion don't means that the machine is moving forever.
Thermodynamics says:
- It's not possible to get heat from one system and transform all of this heat into work (1st specie of perpetual motion machine).
- It's not possible that heat can not, spontaneously, go from a cold thermal focus to a hot one (2nd specie of perpetual motion machine).

So, if your machine can get a quantity of heat and transform it, completely, into work, then you are rich.
If your machine can take heat from a cold focus and leave it to a hot focus, without having to work, men... you are rich!

OK now youre completely off track, tempeture has almost nothing to do with my PMM, i sopose it could melt if it got hot enough or freze if it got cold enough, but unless i launched it into the sun or douced it in liquid nitrogen, im not woried bout it.

Adam

[Arsonade]

Its not about giving up at all. In fact you should pursue it until you find....your error.

Thats EXACTLY what i meen, the whole reason im opening this subject to criticizim is so i can make sure i can get as many points of the spectrum as possible, the constructive criticisim is what i need right now, doubts, arguments, logic, i have my own, i want to make sure i have enough of other's

Adam

[pallidin]

Arsonade, please allow me to clarify something.

Are you stating that your PMM idea is not 100% perpetual, rather that it could run for such a long time(say 10-100 years) that it could be useful? OK, if so nothing wrong with that. But please clarify that issue.

Secondly, I am sure you are aware that it is well within common engineering science to construct a finely made spring coil, such that after winding, would go "tick, tock" for decades if not much longer without rewinding. Of course, more energy is required to wind it up than in the totality of it's decade long unwinding and the incremental output is excruciatingly low over such a time period.

And a flywheel, specially engineered, has enormous usefulness, but again more energy is required to ramp it up than is extracted.

So, this all leads to my other request for clarification: Is your device such that it needs "charging", electrically or mechanically, and that this "potential" is released over a long period of time? Or do you suggest that no "charging" is needed?

Thank you, and I look forward to your responses.

[Relain]

hehe is it better than the carnot engine i have running on my desk? smirks

[Arsonade]

Arsonade, please allow me to clarify something.

Are you stating that your PMM idea is not 100% perpetual, rather that it could run for such a long time(say 10-100 years) that it could be useful? OK, if so nothing wrong with that. But please clarify that issue.

Secondly, I am sure you are aware that it is well within common engineering science to construct a finely made spring coil, such that after winding, would go "tick, tock" for decades if not much longer without rewinding. Of course, more energy is required to wind it up than in the totality of it's decade long unwinding and the incremental output is excruciatingly low over such a time period.

And a flywheel, specially engineered, has enormous usefulness, but again more energy is required to ramp it up than is extracted.

So, this all leads to my other request for clarification: Is your device such that it needs "charging", electrically or mechanically, and that this "potential" is released over a long period of time? Or do you suggest that no "charging" is needed?

Thank you, and I look forward to your responses.

100% perpetual, i would say that if it was ever going to begin to malfunction, it would do so in thousonds of years, but that would be human error, ex: a hole drilled in the wrong spot by .000000000000000000000000000000000001 of an inch, one stand being slightly longer than the other, ect. no charging necacary.

[Arsonade]

hehe is it better than the carnot engine i have running on my desk? smirks

lol

Adam

[MiGUi]

OK now youre completely off track, tempeture has almost nothing to do with my PMM, i sopose it could melt if it got hot enough or freze if it got cold enough, but unless i launched it into the sun or douced it in liquid nitrogen, im not woried bout it.

Adam

What does your machine to be catalogued as a PPM??? because a PPM is what I said before.
If your machine is the 1st specie, then it can get heat and transform all of it into work, without disipation. Thats like a ship that gets the heat from the sea, its motor moves the helix and the rest goes to the sea by friction.
If your machin is a 2nd specie one, then you can freeze a beer, spontaneously, without consumption of work.

So...

[Chi Meson]

100% perpetual, i would say that if it was ever going to begin to malfunction, it would do so in thousonds of years, but that would be human error, ex: a hole drilled in the wrong spot by .000000000000000000000000000000000001 of an inch, one stand being slightly longer than the other, ect. no charging necacary.


THis is revealing. So a precision of 10^-38 meters is required? I think this right here reveals a flaw since this is one billionth of a billionth of a billionth of the diameter of a hydrogen atom. You left the realm of reality about 26 zeros ago.

[Arsonade]

What does your machine to be catalogued as a PPM??? because a PPM is what I said before.
If your machine is the 1st specie, then it can get heat and transform all of it into work, without disipation. Thats like a ship that gets the heat from the sea, its motor moves the helix and the rest goes to the sea by friction.
If your machin is a 2nd specie one, then you can freeze a beer, spontaneously, without consumption of work.

So...

my PMM has an axle that spins, it does not need to heat up or cool down to keep going, tempurature is not a factor at all, either youre not explining this or youre kind of single-minded, no offence

Adam

[Arsonade]

THis is revealing. So a precision of 10^-38 meters is required? I think this right here reveals a flaw since this is one billionth of a billionth of a billionth of the diameter of a hydrogen atom. You left the realm of reality about 26 zeros ago.

In any moter that has been created, can you mesure exactly how long it will spin, to the millisecond? of corse not, a drill off by a nanometer can slowly cause malfunction and a shorter running period. The fact it, as far as my PMM goes, there is very little chance that human error would be a problem, in a perfect world, it would run forever, but in the midst of earthquakes, floods, a nanometer of error in a drilled hole, with anything out of the ordinary, things can happen out of the ordinary. If i were to have an electric moter, bothe exactly the same except that te axle of one is slightly thicker than the other, chances are they would not run for exactly the same time under the exact same conditions, human flaw is not an extremely major problem in my PMM, and i do not think that it is a flaw worth worrying about, If i were claiming to have made it perfectly, i would be lying. Bottom line, human error, while very unlikely in my PMM, would be a slight and unpreventable flaw in not just my PMM, but in anything short of being made by nature.

Adam

[Chi Meson]

Good luck with your machine.

[Arsonade]

Good luck with your machine.

Thanks

Adam

[ophecleide]

who said anything about getting energy from nothing :cool: , i wont say any more on where it's coming from though, that would give it away.

Adam

P.S. i have a fealing that this reply will discourage even more of you but it still is a perpetual motion mechine, no hoax

If it's a perpetual motion machine, then by definition, it is capable of going on forever (within human error, I'll give you that). If you are extracting mechanical energy from it, then there is no avoiding it: you must get this energy from somewhere. There is no source of energy which is completely inexhaustible. You may have explained this before, and I misunderstood you, but is this truly a perpetual motion machine in that it can, in theory, continually produce energy forever, or do you mean it can draw from an energy source which is, in all practicality (but not theory), endless (such as converting the mass from some other galaxy into energy or whatever)? If you are not drawing from an exhaustible source, then you must be getting energy from nothing, unless this is the entire basis for your machine. It's too bad you can't tell us more details, because I'd be really curious to learn where exactly this energy is coming from. I don't blame you for not providing more information as if I really thought I had come up with such a device, I too would be careful as to whom I gave this information, but you'd be a lot more likely to learn what is wrong (or we'd learn to what degree we misunderstand physics) if you would provide more information.

Either way, good luck.

[Arsonade]

If it's a perpetual motion machine, then by definition, it is capable of going on forever (within human error, I'll give you that). If you are extracting mechanical energy from it, then there is no avoiding it: you must get this energy from somewhere. There is no source of energy which is completely inexhaustible. You may have explained this before, and I misunderstood you, but is this truly a perpetual motion machine in that it can, in theory, continually produce energy forever, or do you mean it can draw from an energy source which is, in all practicality (but not theory), endless (such as converting the mass from some other galaxy into energy or whatever)? If you are not drawing from an exhaustible source, then you must be getting energy from nothing, unless this is the entire basis for your machine. It's too bad you can't tell us more details, because I'd be really curious to learn where exactly this energy is coming from. I don't blame you for not providing more information as if I really thought I had come up with such a device, I too would be careful as to whom I gave this information, but you'd be a lot more likely to learn what is wrong (or we'd learn to what degree we misunderstand physics) if you would provide more information.

Either way, good luck.

First of all, i am in no way stating that you guys misunderstand physics, you guys are the most well read in physics ive ever met. OK, all im going to say is this, the source of this energy, in only one unit, would eventually loose power, but in the multitude i have it, (52 exactly) their power would continue to provide forever, providing it stays intact, (meaning anything from human error to the sun exploding) The fact is that the output of the energy produced is greater than that in the units providing it, in a sence, streching the energy out to a degree that if the power source was not unlimited, it would run out faster than it should. but since the power suply is unlimeted, i get a greater power output forever. I need to sort out the pattent info out b 4 i give away any mor info.

Adam

[Antonio Lao]

Adam,

Your perpetual motion machine will work only if it runs on purely (100%) magnetic force. The problem is that, by current technologies, this force also depends on the existence of electric charge and this clearly introduces the impurities of electric force. The combined force becomes electromagnetic. Perpetual motion machines must be purely magnetic.

[Arsonade]

Adam,

Your perpetual motion machine will work only if it runs on purely (100%) magnetic force. The problem is that, by current technologies, this force also depends on the existence of electric charge and this clearly introduces the impurities of electric force. The combined force becomes electromagnetic. Perpetual motion machines must be purely magnetic.

im not 100% sure what you mean, yes my PMM (and i might regret saying this) uses magnets, adn essecially, it is 100% magnetic force providing the energy, the magnets that i use however do not need recharging, they are by definition permenant. could you explin your ideas here?

Adam

[Antonio Lao]

The magnetic force is the second term of the Lorentz force.

F = f_E + F_B = qE + q v \times B

The magnetic force is F_B = q v \times B

This force cannot be separated unless the charge q is not defined or equal unity or any number not zero but greater than unity. The charge is source of the electric field E. In vacuum, there are no charge yet both E-field and B-field exist. And the interaction of the E-B field in vacuum gives the speed of light as a constant. In matter, the E-B field interaction always give a speed less than light speed.

[Antonio Lao]

The experimental value of the unit electric charge, q, is 1.60 x 10^{-19} coulomb. This is a very small number. To make the magnetic force effective, q must be unit or greater. The greater is the unit charge, the longer your PMM will run.

[Arsonade]

The magnetic force is the second term of the Lorentz force.

F = f_E + F_B = qE + q v \times B

The magnetic force is F_B = q v \times B

This force cannot be separated unless the charge q is not defined or equal unity or any number not zero but greater than unity. The charge is source of the electric field E. In vacuum, there are no charge yet both E-field and B-field exist. And the interaction of the E-B field in vacuum gives the speed of light as a constant. In matter, the E-B field interaction always give a speed less than light speed.

who said anything bout light speed?

[Arsonade]

The experimental value of the unit electric charge, q, is 1.60 x 10^{-19} coulomb. This is a very small number. To make the magnetic force effective, q must be unit or greater. The greater is the unit charge, the longer your PMM will run.

These magnets are permenant, www.wondermagnets.com if you dont belive me, nto completely sure about the equesions, but ill get it

Adam

[Antonio Lao]

Adam,

The light speed comes from the interaction of electricity and magnetism in outer space, the vacuum. But this interaction is always less than light speed inside matter such as a machine that you built. The two main properties of this interaction are the permeability of the magnetic materials (current density) and the permittivity of the electrical components (voltages).

The next critical thing to consider is the power output of the machine. Power is the product of the current and the voltage. This is different in both DC and AC circuits. Power is the determining factor in knowing whether the machine can do all the works needed to run other electromotive machineries such as a dishwahser, etc.

FYI: every elementary particle like electron (unit of electricity), neutrinos do possess magnetic moment. So in a sense they are all PMMs.

[Arsonade]

Adam,

The light speed comes from the interaction of electricity and magnetism in outer space, the vacuum. But this interaction is always less than light speed inside matter such as a machine that you built. The two main properties of this interaction are the permeability of the magnetic materials (current density) and the permittivity of the electrical components (voltages).

The next critical thing to consider is the power output of the machine. Power is the product of the current and the voltage. This is different in both DC and AC circuits. Power is the determining factor in knowing whether the machine can do all the works needed to run other electromotive machineries such as a dishwahser, etc.

FYI: every elementary particle like electron (unit of electricity), neutrinos do possess magnetic moment. So in a sense they are all PMMs.

Well so much for inveting somthing that doesnt copy anything in nature lol, but thats besides the point. Power output would, by my experiments, be very high, the axle would most likely spin much like a car's wheel's going maybe...im going to say 50-60 mph. it would also have very close to the force in a car moter; strong, and this would just be the model, The actuall PMM, after i get a pattent and get enough money to start a company (if this does work there's no way im selling it to some major company and then loose controll over it), the actull PMMs or Perpetual Power Plants (PPP) as i would call them, would be relitively huge, i do not have the details with me at the moment but if i renembr the actual would be about 10, 20, 30, or maybe 40 meters in height, very big, but it should produce more than enough electricity to power a city such as New York. The power output however is not the essecial factor, its just the way to make money off of it.

Adam

P.S. and by the way, the fact that this thing takes in no fuel would bring the energy cost down a lot, this energy would probably be cheaper than many used now.

[Antonio Lao]

Have you approach any prospective iinvestor? Or are you gonna finance it yourself?

[MiGUi]

Ok, if you put a satellite in orbit, being in rest, it will come back to the earth due to gravity. If you use a magnetic field to rule your machine, it cant be a PMM, because disipative forces exists and the energy which uses can not be back. A PMM don't need to take outter energy for its movement.

In case that your magnets were trully permanent (something which I doubt, due to magnetic hysteresis), you don't have a PMM.

You don't want to understand the meaning of a PMM. Learn a bit of thermodynamics before reply.

[Arsonade]

Ok, if you put a satellite in orbit, being in rest, it will come back to the earth due to gravity. If you use a magnetic field to rule your machine, it cant be a PMM, because disipative forces exists and the energy which uses can not be back. A PMM don't need to take outter energy for its movement.

In case that your magnets were trully permanent (something which I doubt, due to magnetic hysteresis), you don't have a PMM.

You don't want to understand the meaning of a PMM. Learn a bit of thermodynamics before reply.

Man i am sorry but i dont think you understand me here, gravity is not an problem with this PMM, it has been neutralized to friction, I know Thermo dynamics ive been studying it for a while so i would be prepared to reply to any and all posts, the magnets are truely permanent, and my PMM does not need to take energy from another source, ive never said that and to do so would prove my invention as a hoax.

Adam

P.S. and the fact that you even sugested i "don't want to understand the meaning of a PMM" makes me sick.

[Arsonade]

Have you approach any prospective iinvestor? Or are you gonna finance it yourself?

Now i realize that i shouldnt count all my chicken before they hatch, but i have given this a lot of thought, I think that i will try to get a loan, i have a strong fealing that if i get this thing built on the scale that it would need to be, i could pay back the debt in 2 to 3 years from construction. Financing it myself would prove to be extremely hard, the model itself will wind up costing a lot, but a full size model, i could work for years and not get that much money. The fact is that i dont want to sell it to a company of any sort, if this thing works, GE, Duracell, in fact almost any company out there will be making offers of billion, the fact is, i would make a lot more, and have a lot more fun with it if i was in controll.

Adam

P.S. i realize that this sounds conceded or overconfident to be worying about these things, but if my PMM works, whitch it will, it will be beter to have given this consideration then to have not.

[Antonio Lao]

Adam,

Looks like you are in control of the whole situation. It is admirable for me to know that someone like you has mastered his own destiny unlike other less fortunate mortals like me.

[Arsonade]

Adam,

Looks like you are in control of the whole situation. It is admirable for me to know that someone like you has mastered his own destiny unlike other less fortunate mortals like me.

.......im assuming youre being sarcastic, but either way, thanks, if everybody out there want to keep sending replys, be my guest, to those that did reply, your critisisim, doubts, and questioning have allowed me to perfect my PMM and also find ways to counter this critisisim. Im not so sure about me "mastering my own destiny", but i do my best lol. as for the "less fortunate mortals", i dont think i want to know.

Adam

P.S. ill still be checking replys dailly, i hope that this is not the last of the replys, You guys are really the most well read in physics i have ever met, half of the things that you mentioned i had to go look up, hoping i could still counter the argument. Thanks.

P.P.S. Bluedige, for some reason i couldnt reply to your mail, the computer for some reason wouldnt let me, do you have an aternate e-mail?

[Antonio Lao]

Adam,

Just what a PMM is forever, I would like to live forever. Maybe someday I can save enough money to buy one of your PMMs, only hope by that time inflation does not make your PMM next to priceless.

[Arsonade]

Adam,

Just what a PMM is forever, I would like to live forever. Maybe someday I can save enough money to buy one of your PMMs, only hope by that time inflation does not make your PMM next to priceless.

kind of a legasy huh man. either way, model PMMs would not be that hard to mke, but of corse the class of truely perpetual PMMs would look a lot like a block of lead with wires coming out of it lol, but the PMM that would die out in a few hundred-thousond years would probably look preaty cool. Whitchever one it is, ill send you one when i make it. Thanks for the confidence, critizisim, and all around help, its more than paid for a PMM.

Adam

P.S. Inflation...hmmm...i have considered one flaw, when i relece this PMM onto the world, well, truely clean, cheep, all around perfect energy, no self respecting city or town would bother with any other kind, excepting dams and maybe wind power, the PMM being more efficient. I expect my mechine will put a lot of people out of work, imagine, the recent quest for oil in the middle east, found to be worthless. Ill be praised by enviormentaists and damned by almost everyone elce, who knows, Too many factors even for a physisist.

[ram2048]

i'm not sure myself but i thought perpetual motion machine meant that you put energy into it once and it would continue forever, not that it got its motive energy from an infinite or permanent source.

if you're getting your energy from magnets then what you have is a magnetic motion machine, not a perpetual motion machine.

if you're putting power into a closed system and the net result is some form of positive "work" such that you remove the power and work continues "perpetually" then you would have a PMM.

i designed a perpetual motion machine once but never got around to building it.

consisted of magnets, a surface almost frictionless, and some toggles.

[N-o-S] (_____________________[N---S]__)[S-o-N]

3 magnets, 2 on the outside and one inside a near frictionless container.

the magnet in the center would move away from the "like pole" on the right and accelerate to the other end attracted to the opposing pole. when it hit the end it would also hit a toggle that would rotate the magnets on both ends 180 degrees. maybe add some springs in the ends of the tubes to return some of the force from hitting the ends.

in any case when i presented this as a PMM to my physics prof he said it wouldn't be a real PMM because it uses magnetic force

[Antonio Lao]

Too many factors even for a physisist.
Not for an economist. For him, the more factors there are the merrier it gets. These factors are what keep them busy and employed. They even can win the Nobel Prize. So all economists won't like what your machine can do.

[Arsonade]

i'm not sure myself but i thought perpetual motion machine meant that you put energy into it once and it would continue forever, not that it got its motive energy from an infinite or permanent source.

if you're getting your energy from magnets then what you have is a magnetic motion machine, not a perpetual motion machine.

if you're putting power into a closed system and the net result is some form of positive "work" such that you remove the power and work continues "perpetually" then you would have a PMM.

i designed a perpetual motion machine once but never got around to building it.

consisted of magnets, a surface almost frictionless, and some toggles.

[N-o-S] (_____________________[N---S]__)[S-o-N]

3 magnets, 2 on the outside and one inside a near frictionless container.

the magnet in the center would move away from the "like pole" on the right and accelerate to the other end attracted to the opposing pole. when it hit the end it would also hit a toggle that would rotate the magnets on both ends 180 degrees. maybe add some springs in the ends of the tubes to return some of the force from hitting the ends.

in any case when i presented this as a PMM to my physics prof he said it wouldn't be a real PMM because it uses magnetic force

First of all, where does it say that a perpetual motion mechine cannot use magnetic force? why not? it the thing runs forever and give off electricity, who cares whats making it go providing that it is self contained? fine, if you would like to put the definition of "magnetic motion mechine" go right ahead, the fact is that this thing runs forever and gives off energy forever, I see no reason why a PMM cant use magnetic force."i'm not sure myself but i thought perpetual motion machine meant that you put energy into it once and it would continue forever" no, thats not a nececaty.

Adam

P.S. hey, ya know what, i know why ur PMM wouldnt work, it would require more energy to flip those two magnets than could possibly be produced in getting the centrel magnet to move, thin bout it, if theres a north and south pole together, the energy produced will not be nearly enough to flip one over against it's "will", plus flip the magnet on the other side, no, this PMM wouldnt work, it would take too much energy to flip the magnets.

P.P.S by the way, you may have it in a vacume, but the thing that that central magnet is sliding on provides friction, evertually, if the outer magnets did flip, the constant force of the magnet smashing into the side of the containor coupled with the drag of the central magnet on the floor of the containor would eventually smash your centrel magnets to bits. bottomline- this PMMidea has more holes in it than swiss cheese in a gun fight, sorry.

[Arsonade]

Not for an economist. For him, the more factors there are the merrier it gets. These factors are what keep them busy and employed. They even can win the Nobel Prize. So all economists won't like what your machine can do.

well, honestly, what would happen is that money would be taken away from almost all energy situations except for maybe dams and wind power, instead to be replaced my me. It would not be a monopoly because no one would be forced to use my source of energy, it would just be more efficient, less wastefull, and cheeper than everything elce.

Adam

[Antonio Lao]

That's the promise land in this ocean of energy instability!

[Arsonade]

That's the promise land in this ocean of energy instability!

I sure hope so lol, only if i can get the money and the pattent needed to get us all there.

Adam

[Antonio Lao]

I'll be hoping to see ya in the land of enchanting PMMs, if I live long enough, since I'm not wearing the ring of power or immortality like what Frodo Baggins had done.

[Arsonade]

I'll be hoping to see ya in the land of enchanting PMMs, if I live long enough, since I'm not wearing the ring of power or immortality like what Frodo Baggins had done.

lol man im just gonna assume ur not makin fun of me aight lol, i think that after i get a car/insurence ect, ill start gettin $ together for the parts,it'l be a chalenge but i can do this.

Adam

[Antonio Lao]

May the force be with you, always.

[Arsonade]

May the force be with you, always.

........lol ok

Adam

[Antonio Lao]

The vacuum is the opposite to your PMM. The vacuum is a machine of perpetual no motion but the mystery is that it can still fluctuate. And this fluctuation is also perpetual.

The vacuum does contain an infinite amount of zero-point energy. If these can be added together then it is the same as a PMM. Right now nobody know how to add all these zero-point energy. This is because energy density as a physical concept cannot be quantified by addition.

[Arsonade]

The vacuum is the opposite to your PMM. The vacuum is a machine of perpetual no motion but the mystery is that it can still fluctuate. And this fluctuation is also perpetual.

The vacuum does contain an infinite amount of zero-point energy. If these can be added together then it is the same as a PMM. Right now nobody know how to add all these zero-point energy. This is because energy density as a physical concept cannot be quantified by addition.

Im not sure where this particular convo came from but i do know that hundeds of microscopic particles pop in and out of existance canstantly in vacumes, is that what you meen? and what does this have to do w/ my PMM?

Adam

[Antonio Lao]

A force cannot be detected within the vacuum. So it's a no-force situation. On the hand, a PMM, at the least, has to have a constant force forever.

[Arsonade]

A force cannot be detected within the vacuum. So it's a no-force situation. On the hand, a PMM, at the least, has to have a constant force forever.

are you trying to tell me that in a vacume there can be no magnetic force? and if so why in the world is that? magnets dont need air or a certain amount of presure to work

Adam

[baffledMatt]

Interesting thread.

Adam, I think you really should go to an open minded professional physicist you trust, make them sign a non-disclosure form (just in case?), and have them take you through why it won't work. If you turn out to be right then good for you and I wish you every success and Nobel prize (at least physics and peace will be yours) in the future. And if you are wrong then hopefully you should really learn something from the experience - not to mention a bucket load of physics.

Just remember that we all learn from our mistakes!

Matt

p.s. if you don't know how to write/obtain a non-disclosure form simply ask the professional physicist as this is the sort of thing they often deal with as part of their job.

[Arsonade]

Interesting thread.

Adam, I think you really should go to an open minded professional physicist you trust, make them sign a non-disclosure form (just in case?), and have them take you through why it won't work. If you turn out to be right then good for you and I wish you every success and Nobel prize (at least physics and peace will be yours) in the future. And if you are wrong then hopefully you should really learn something from the experience - not to mention a bucket load of physics.

Just remember that we all learn from our mistakes!

Matt

p.s. if you don't know how to write/obtain a non-disclosure form simply ask the professional physicist as this is the sort of thing they often deal with as part of their job.

Thanks i will, unfortunatly i have yet to meet a physisist i can trust because other than you guys i know no physicists lol. I honestly have looked at this problem at every posible angle and i truely belive that i have it, Now i do actually know someone in the statistics department of physics whom i can most likely trst, but im not sure he would be the right person to ask, any ideas on this?

Adam

[baffledMatt]

Thanks i will, unfortunatly i have yet to meet a physisist i can trust because other than you guys i know no physicists lol

Trusting the physicist is not your biggest concern as a properly written non-disclosure should protect you pretty well. Your main problem will be finding someone willing to take the time to look at the thing and then have the patience to explain to your satisfaction why it won't work. Sounds like your statistics person may be able to help locate someone perhaps?


I honestly have looked at this problem at every posible angle and i truely belive that i have it

Which is why it is so important you find out why you are wrong.

Well, good luck anyway.

Matt

[Antonio Lao]

are you trying to tell me that in a vacume there can be no magnetic force? and if so why in the world is that? magnets dont need air or a certain amount of presure to work

The magnetic field of the vacuum cannot be separated from the electric field. Both appear together as electromagnetic field of the vacuum where both

\nabla \cdot E = 0

and

\nabla \cdot B = 0

That is to say that both electric and magnetic field are sourceless. The charge density is zero and the current density is also zero in vacuum. In matter, it's a different story altogether.

[baffledMatt]

are you trying to tell me that in a vacume there can be no magnetic force? and if so why in the world is that? magnets dont need air or a certain amount of presure to work


And to further confound matters you can even have 'EM' effects when there is no E or B field at all! This leads to something called the Aharonov Bohm effect which was predicted in the late 50's and observed in the 80's. Pretty weird stuff.

Matt

[Arsonade]

The magnetic field of the vacuum cannot be separated from the electric field. Both appear together as electromagnetic field of the vacuum where both

\nabla \cdot E = 0

and

\nabla \cdot B = 0

That is to say that both electric and magnetic field are sourceless. The charge density is zero and the current density is also zero in vacuum. In matter, it's a different story altogether.

"And to further confound matters you can even have 'EM' effects when there is no E or B field at all! This leads to something called the Aharonov Bohm effect which was predicted in the late 50's and observed in the 80's. Pretty weird stuff.

Matt"


im still not completly sure of your points, magnets have worked in vacumes before.

Adam

[Arsonade]

Trusting the physicist is not your biggest concern as a properly written non-disclosure should protect you pretty well. Your main problem will be finding someone willing to take the time to look at the thing and then have the patience to explain to your satisfaction why it won't work. Sounds like your statistics person may be able to help locate someone perhaps?



Which is why it is so important you find out why you are wrong.

Well, good luck anyway.

Matt

Ya ok thanks ill do that

Adam

[energia]

you could call my girlfriend's mouth a perpetual motion machine :rofl:

[Arsonade]

you could call my girlfriend's mouth a perpetual motion machine :rofl:

ya but i think only you could harness that energy lolololol

Adam

[Antonio Lao]

Without going too far afield, the stars are really PMMs. They are sustained by very strong magnetic field to balance the forces from gravity and radiation.

[Arsonade]

Without going too far afield, the stars are really PMMs. They are sustained by very strong magnetic field to balance the forces from gravity and radiation.

lol no theyre not, stars will either burn up or explode, they dont last forever, if you meen the process of stars exploding, then forming nebulas, then forming new stars being perpetual, yeah i guess, but then, isnt the water cycle also pertpetual motion? those are very general descriptions of Perpetual motion.

Adam

[berty]

i know about einstein's theory of relitivity and the first 2 laws of thermodynamics, but belive it or not i have made a perpetual motion mechine. at this point, i bet most of you are thinking about closing this message, but i really would like some feedback on your reasoning about my invention

For a perpetual motion machine to work you have to satisfy all the restraints placed on such a machine by the laws of physics, especially entropy. This means that you have to take into account all the factors present in the only fully closed system we know of which is the entire Universe. When all relevant factors are considered, it is discovered that it is never possible to extract more energy from such a machine than is lost.
But is this strictly true ..............?

As various respondents have pointed out the Universe has no actual edge. Therefore, as the initial expansion of the Universe was faster than light, there is probably something beyond the "event horizon" of the Universe.

If this is true can the Universe be accurately described as being fully closed?

Also, would it be possible that under this premise entropy may not always lead to complete disorder and that it may, in principle, be possible to a contruct a perpetual motion machine?

[Antonio Lao]

Malfunction stars explode because they are sick. The balance of forces cannot be maintained. All machines, artificial (man-made) or natural, are subject to imperfection, defect, internal flaw, and chemical impurities, crystal lattice deformation and many other imperfections of structural configuration. In this sense, even the universe is not perfect. The universe will eventually suffer the consequence of the "heat death" at maximum entropy. Then it will start to contract.

[Arsonade]

For a perpetual motion machine to work you have to satisfy all the restraints placed on such a machine by the laws of physics, especially entropy. This means that you have to take into account all the factors present in the only fully closed system we know of which is the entire Universe. When all relevant factors are considered, it is discovered that it is never possible to extract more energy from such a machine than is lost.
But is this strictly true ..............?

As various respondents have pointed out the Universe has no actual edge. Therefore, as the initial expansion of the Universe was faster than light, there is probably something beyond the "event horizon" of the Universe.

If this is true can the Universe be accurately described as being fully closed?

Also, would it be possible that under this premise entropy may not always lead to complete disorder and that it may, in principle, be possible to a contruct a perpetual motion machine?

Have you read the rest of this post yet? entropy has come up, yes this is in a closed system, i recognise your logic that there really is no such thing as a closed system, but it only needs to be relitively closed so that air cannot get in and that if aitr does get in, it is imidiatly sucked out. my PMM would not put out as much energy as was put into it in say a minute, but it would keep going, for example, lets say that the energy in the magnets used are 12,000 watts, my PMM would probably put out only 10,000 watts, the point is however, while the 12,000 watts is applied ony once to the magnets, it keeps the flow of 10,000 watts flowing long after the first 12,000 are created, its like im getting as much energy as i can and then hitting the reset buton, not losing the energy intiially put out.

Adam

P.S. if this confused anyone, i am just saying that it would take a short amount of time to create the same amount of energy that went into making these magnets, but after the amount of energy has been met, it will continue to give off energy, thus creating more energy than put into the magnets.

[Arsonade]

Malfunction stars explode because they are sick. The balance of forces cannot be maintained. All machines, artificial (man-made) or natural, are subject to imperfection, defect, internal flaw, and chemical impurities, crystal lattice deformation and many other imperfections of structural configuration. In this sense, even the universe is not perfect. The universe will eventually suffer the consequence of the "heat death" at maximum entropy. Then it will start to contract.

...ok...but what does this have to do with my PMM?

Adam

[Alkatran]

So, let me get this straight. You're Perpetual motion machine, which is powered by magnets (a magnetic field requires an electric current?), is given X energy then gives out Y energy/sec.

I can't think of any way to do this. How are you supposed to get the energy out? Wouldn't this mean taking energy from the contraption? Wouldn't this have the opposite effect of giving the contraption energy (slowing it down, instead of speeding it up).

I submit that if it worked the way you said, it wouldn't gain energy due to energy being entered, for the same reason it woudn't lose energy from having energy harnessed from it.

[Antonio Lao]

...ok...but what does this have to do with my PMM?

When the universe dies, so will your PMM.

[Arsonade]

So, let me get this straight. You're Perpetual motion machine, which is powered by magnets (a magnetic field requires an electric current?), is given X energy then gives out Y energy/sec.

I can't think of any way to do this. How are you supposed to get the energy out? Wouldn't this mean taking energy from the contraption? Wouldn't this have the opposite effect of giving the contraption energy (slowing it down, instead of speeding it up).

I submit that if it worked the way you said, it wouldn't gain energy due to energy being entered, for the same reason it woudn't lose energy from having energy harnessed from it.

no no, you misunderstand me here, these magnets are charged yes but they do not need a continual hookup to stay magnitised, they are not electromagnets, what i was basicly saying was that initialy, the power used to make it would not be over the power given out, but the power given out would last forver so it would become greater in a very short time. as for your ideas of aking out energy, im afraid youre going to have to take my word, given no friction, this thing would keep accelerating untuill it exploded, with a turbine attached, the right amount of friction would be provided to keep it going at a steady pace.

Adam

[Arsonade]

When the universe dies, so will your PMM.

lol well yeah, but i think that we can disregard that, if the univerce ends there wont really be a need for my PMM will there?

Adam

[Simon666]

Do Al Qaeda a favor and couple the output to the input, due to an exponential increase in released energy, perhaps you blast the US from the map.

[Arsonade]

Do Al Qaeda a favor and couple the output to the input, due to an exponential increase in released energy, perhaps you blast the US from the map.

lolololololol no seriosly this is the funnyist post ive seen lol, im a terrorist for making a PMM, thats a new one, but ok seriosly im assumingthat you are refering to the explosion i mentioned, indeed the full size version without restricions could do serios damage to anything but neither the model version nor the full size would have nearly enough power to destrow the USA or any country for that matter, id say that restrictions could be placed upon the full sized such as very thick walls, ect.and that danger would not be a problem, anything that could go wrong however would have to be attributed to human error, sorry for laughing before but seriosly i was in no way expecting that kind of reaction. if you want my veiws on polotics you'll have to IM me (AdamChess4). secondly there is no input! :cry: :eek: the imput happens many many miles away somewhere elce where these magnets are manufactured, thats the imput, i buy the Magnets, thats it, it does take a large amount of energy to make these magnets, but like i have said, i will definatly be creating more energy than needed. technically if my company grows big enough (realize im thinking way far ahead of myself) then yes, the output may be used for the imput of energy into these things, the point is, the imput is a one time, then done thing, the output lasts as long as the mechine stays intact, thus, a Perpetual motion mechine.

Adam

P.S. blasting the US from the map is not exactly on my to do list lol

[Simon666]

I was just kidding. ;) You do realize however that is what would/could happen if overunity machines would exist?

[Antonio Lao]

...the output to the input, due to an exponential increase in released energy...

The quantum theory has already settled this problem with exponential increase of energy similar to the ultraviolet catastrophe. The result is the quantum theory of radiation in the blackbody experiments done by Planck at the turn of the century.

Nuclear fission does have its uncontrolled chain reaction in the production of neutron and its simultaneous release of energy but what's needed is the critical mass of the fissionable material which have to go into a complex process of preparation and refinement and purification, a laborous and time consuming process.

Nuclear fusion does have its promise of insurmountable energy production. This is based on implosion in contrast to explosion. Many nations are currently doing research in this area of future energy source.

[Arsonade]

I was just kidding. ;) You do realize however that is what would/could happen if overunity machines would exist?

ok, yeah i do, i know that the economy would be thrown into a huricane, almost everything centered to energy would be effected drasticly, there would be a lot of people out of wrk because while it would take a large amount of labor to produce one of these, taking care of it would not be a big expence, the only people needed would be monitors to check in case the mechine breaks due to some human error, and technitions on call 24/7 to fix it, thats it. Overall however, the PMM would help everyone, it would be cheeper energy, and truely clean energy.

Adam

[baffledMatt]

Well, as sceptical as I am of your 'PMM', I really hope you do make it work because it might just stop all these bloody war-for-oil things I hear so much about.

Matt

[farmerTom]

A PPM may not truly exist especially if certain arreys of magnets are present. You would have to take the value of the stored energy into account, but being able to generate more energy than an alternator or generator uses is quite posible. But you'll probably find out that after you factor in all the varibles its not over/anything for free. Call it what ya want, I'ld probably be more inclined to call mine an improvement on said existing device.

I do know of 2 machines in existance, both with some bugs. When ya seek help, instead of assistance you'll get quotes about the 3rd law of thermodynamics, and any other physical law that was devised by 3 old men with a coal fired steam engine as a test bench. Forget about digital controled, forget about recent tech advances, forget about an original concept, because its easier for most ppl to just say no and quote someone then it is to actually help you.

Do be carefull as to whom and what you are discussing this with, pll like to take things. They also like to keep what they got. With an oilmans economy and a oilman president in the US right now you may meet a little sceptisism.

Ok....

Ussually in an electrical generating device you'll encounter a host of things that offer resistance between your goal and what you started with. Bearings and the air are a real drag, overcoming as much as u can here will help u achive a plus #. Copper loss, no superconducters are available at the moment that'll work at room temperature or above, so with that added we have a resistance in our electrical loop. Heat from resistance of any type also wreaks havoc on a curcuit either it be mechanical or electrical. Heat in an electric curcuit can be devistating, form a sort of inductor, and also make a rather nice resister cause electric conductors can only move so many electrons and if they are bouncing at random like heat there goes that + for your machine.

The key notes:

1)friction from bearings
2)friction from air
3)poor electrical conectors (to much resistance)
4)heat

Some other things that can effect a spinning type machine ar poor 3d balanceing....aka angular momentum. It'll put an extra drag on most bearing types and is had to counter, or balance out.

Anyway if ya need a better explanation, or would like to discuss this in a non-obvious way reply. I'm working on a series of optimations for an alternator type machine, its unreal at the amount of things ppl miss when they just except what now is as what will be 4ever, welcome to the 21st century folks..............

:smile:

[farmerTom]

A liitle extra, can't call this a theory though:


I wonder if a magnet is stored energy, or a device that merely channels/aligns energy that is external its self???

Is a super conductor posible with an organic molecule...posiblably a oil dirivative....
would a mutable matrix be better suited for conducting a certain frequency range???

heres Johnny:

http://www.uspto.gov/

[Arsonade]

Well, as sceptical as I am of your 'PMM', I really hope you do make it work because it might just stop all these bloody war-for-oil things I hear so much about.

Matt

Thanks matt, to be honest, it may not, Oil may not be used for fuel anymore, but my secondary invention that goes along with my PMM, somthing to levitate the axle whitch im sure most of you will reallise what it is, but it would not really be able to be aplied to somthing such as a car, oil would probably still be in demand, unfortunatly.

Adam

[Arsonade]

A PPM may not truly exist especially if certain arreys of magnets are present. You would have to take the value of the stored energy into account, but being able to generate more energy than an alternator or generator uses is quite posible. But you'll probably find out that after you factor in all the varibles its not over/anything for free. Call it what ya want, I'ld probably be more inclined to call mine an improvement on said existing device.

I do know of 2 machines in existance, both with some bugs. When ya seek help, instead of assistance you'll get quotes about the 3rd law of thermodynamics, and any other physical law that was devised by 3 old men with a coal fired steam engine as a test bench. Forget about digital controled, forget about recent tech advances, forget about an original concept, because its easier for most ppl to just say no and quote someone then it is to actually help you.

Do be carefull as to whom and what you are discussing this with, pll like to take things. They also like to keep what they got. With an oilmans economy and a oilman president in the US right now you may meet a little sceptisism.

Ok....

Ussually in an electrical generating device you'll encounter a host of things that offer resistance between your goal and what you started with. Bearings and the air are a real drag, overcoming as much as u can here will help u achive a plus #. Copper loss, no superconducters are available at the moment that'll work at room temperature or above, so with that added we have a resistance in our electrical loop. Heat from resistance of any type also wreaks havoc on a curcuit either it be mechanical or electrical. Heat in an electric curcuit can be devistating, form a sort of inductor, and also make a rather nice resister cause electric conductors can only move so many electrons and if they are bouncing at random like heat there goes that + for your machine.

The key notes:

1)friction from bearings
2)friction from air
3)poor electrical conectors (to much resistance)
4)heat

Some other things that can effect a spinning type machine ar poor 3d balanceing....aka angular momentum. It'll put an extra drag on most bearing types and is had to counter, or balance out.

Anyway if ya need a better explanation, or would like to discuss this in a non-obvious way reply. I'm working on a series of optimations for an alternator type machine, its unreal at the amount of things ppl miss when they just except what now is as what will be 4ever, welcome to the 21st century folks..............

:smile:

man you are cool, first of all, i completely understand what you meen, when i first told people that i made a PMM the first thing that was shot at me was the laws of thermodynamics, it didn't matter if the mechine made sence or not, it didn't matter about the physics of it, and i can guarentee you that noone tried to visualise this mechine, and this was with diagrams. The only help that was given to me was to understand the laws of thermodynamics and to comply with them, well i did tudy them and i went back and i proved them wrong, and they just refused to listen. I hate to think that i cannot trust anyone but with somthing of this importance to me i feel that i can't afford to, where i grow up, people have little chance of becoming anything, those who try the hardest loose all childhood and personality and those who give up and accept life as it is wind up even worse. I realised from the look in my science teecher's eyes that he thought this was his lucky break, not mine, luckilly i had shown him no diagrams, and he got preaty mad when i refused, who can i trust? Well thats my take on my PMM's philosophy, now, down to the physics. #1, friction from air, solved that with a vacume, now this may sound obvios and yes i know that there is actually a miniscule amount of friction in a vacume and that man has never actually created a perfect vacume, but what we have is perfectly suitable. #2, Sorry, mixed that up, just switch this with # 1, ok friction form bearings, I have come up with somthing that i can bet has already been thought up and disproved but honestly, i think with enough calibration it can work, its called a NFS or No Friction Stand (i have a habit of acronyms). The NFS attaches to the spinning axle and basicly levitates the entire contraption. as for #3, electricity would only be implimented in the harnessing of the electrity, i would use the friction of the turbine to keep the PMM from spinning out of controll and basically exploding, again it is not a matter of too much or too little friction, it is a matter of calibration coupled with experimentation that will perfect this mechine. as for #4, the only heat that i can forsee is that of the turbine/genorator/engine/what ever the propper name, this Turbine would actually be contained within the vacume, as you know, heat canot travel without matter to travel through but then again, what about the vacume of space and the sun, anyway, i doubt that the vacume will stop the heat, most thermoses use vacumes but they still get warm, no, the vacume will serve to decrece the heat, this will sustain the genorator. Doubts may arise here, with heat, wont the georator eventually break? not to worry, i have a few more tricks up my sleave, for example, a backup genorator whitch i know, would not constitute as a perpetual motion mechine because it would technically be fueled by genorators, but one has to see here, that the genorator is not actually a part of my PMM, it is the profit, if i were to replace that genorator with anything tht causes friction, i could get the same effect, but i would not be able to harness the electity, it would be a PMM, but it wouldn't be helping anyone. Im not quite sure what you meen by angular momentum, the rotation of the earth perhaps? that would not be a reall problem with the NFS. The real reason for the sucsess of this PMM is it's versitility, i can change almost any aspect of teh mechine, there are almost unlimited posibilitys and only one of them will work, i have a fealing that it will be easyer than it sounds.

Adam

P.S. I hope i didn't write too much, if this is too big, i may have to take out the quote. As for people acepting things as they are, not seeing the posibilitys, not seeing the vision, how could this be more related to a PMM lol :smile:

[Arsonade]

A liitle extra, can't call this a theory though:


I wonder if a magnet is stored energy, or a device that merely channels/aligns energy that is external its self???

Is a super conductor posible with an organic molecule...posiblably a oil dirivative....
would a mutable matrix be better suited for conducting a certain frequency range???

heres Johnny:

http://www.uspto.gov/

lol now that went right over my head, this might interest you, www.wondermagnet.com wither that or it's www.wondermagnets.com , not sure

Adam

[Antonio Lao]

...wonder if a magnet is stored energy, or a device that merely channels/aligns energy that is external its self???

If there is a force, there is energy associated with the force. Since there is a magnetic force, we can be certain that there is energy of the magnetic field.

But the vacuum is thought by many scientists to have no force, no mass, and yet it is the seat of infinite number of zero-point energy.

[Arsonade]

OK guys im not sure if anybody is going to reply to this cause im not sure if anyone elce is still lookin @ this post, either way, i have a question about magnets that could prove usefull in the making of this mechine, My main question is, is there an alloy or metal that can block a magnetic feild? I know there is, i have heard about it in MRIs and CAT scans and my Physics Professer friend mentioned it at some point, but what is it? Any ideas go ahead and reply, if i dont hear back within 5 days though, ill start a new post.

Adam

P.S. This post is really old now lol

[Hydr0matic]

Google is your friend. (http://www.google.se/search?q=%22block+a+magnetic+field%22&ie=UTF-8&hl=sv&meta=)

[russ_watters]

My main question is, is there an alloy or metal that can block a magnetic feild? Ahh, I get it now - you think by blocking and un-blocking a magnetic field you can get free energyin a sort of powerles motor. Very, very common hoax/error: you can't, but maybe you need to build it before you believe it....

[Arsonade]

Ahh, I get it now - you think by blocking and un-blocking a magnetic field you can get free energyin a sort of powerles motor. Very, very common hoax/error: you can't, but maybe you need to build it before you believe it....

...no, in fact the PMM would work just fine without any magnetic blocking, it would just be a lot more effecient with it, maybe adding more to the ooutput, makeing it spin faster, if it had been a key factor i would have introduced it earlyer on. also, i think that steel is the alloy i am looking for, have to double check.

Adam

[Arsonade]

In the strictest sense, magnetic shielding is not truly shielding at all. Unlike the way a lead shield stops X-rays, magnetic shielding materials create an area of lower magnetic field in their vicinity by attracting the magnetic field lines to themselves. The physical property which allows them to do this is called "permeability".

got this from a link off site #1, this is all i needed, i dont need to stop the feilds so much as weaken them in certain ares, this is mostly in the effort of building, also, this will prevent magnetic feilds from interfering with eachother enough to increce the output of my PMM signifigantly, Thanks!

Adam

[Gokul43201]

You can completely shield a magnetic field using a superconductor. Nothing else will work.

[Arsonade]

You can completely shield a magnetic field using a superconductor. Nothing else will work.

Ya i found sum foil like stuff online, forget wat it's called though.

Adam

[Gokul43201]

The best (highest Tc) superconductors around work only at about 140K (that's nearly -200F) !

[Arsonade]

The best (highest Tc) superconductors around work only at about 140K (that's nearly -200F) !

ya an my magnets wont work at that temp,of corse, there is another kind, but no, thats too complicated (theres a new type of magnet, ceramic in liquid nitrogen temps with an electiic current run through it has proven to be stronger than a neodyum magnet but of couse that meens my entire mechinism encased in liquid nitrogen goodbye no friction, i bet my structuure would fall apart and i would still need to run power through those ceramics, ill stick (no pun intended) to my origional plan) but no, ive seen some less effective supercunducters that work @ room temp, just some of that should work for what i need it.

Adam

P.S. Ive been raising money for this PMM and i should have enough to buy the materials by the end of the summer if im lucky, i know i can get a pattent aplication but i havnt been able to, anybody wanna walk me through on the website?

[Ravenlock]

I just can't take a guy seriously who says he has invented a PMM, yet continually spells patent wrong.

Ravenlock

[Arsonade]

I just can't take a guy seriously who says he has invented a PMM, yet continually spells patent wrong.

Ravenlock

lol now theres na excuse, i have the soulution to worldwide cheep clean energy and this guy thinks im lying cause i made some spelling mistakes lol, i was exited man, i get exited about this stuff, i just went fast is all, stop reading the words and listen to wat im saying.

Adam

[russ_watters]

lol now theres na excuse, i have the soulution to worldwide cheep clean energy and this guy thinks im lying cause i made some spelling mistakes... Not lying, just wrong. It really should tell you something that we can be so confident that you are wrong without knowing much of anything about your device. You have made an error and you need to find it before you waste any more time/money in this pursuit. Pursuing a patent will get expensive.

Have you at least researched to compare your device to other PMMs?

[Arsonade]

Not lying, just wrong. It really should tell you something that we can be so confident that you are wrong without knowing much of anything about your device. You have made an error and you need to find it before you waste any more time/money in this pursuit. Pursuing a patent will get expensive.

Have you at least researched to compare your device to other PMMs?

yes i have, i still find my design to lack the flaws that others did, friction, power source, acceleration, ect, all problems that mine has managed to get through, i do realise that, im not stupid, as soon as i mentioned this to others for their oppinion they got that "o great not another one" smile on their face and patiently described the reasons why it wouldnt work, some didnt even look at the designs befor they sent me off without any kind of help. They were confident that i was wrong too, if i had made an error, i think 3 years should have been enough time to find an error, as i have over the years, but instead of giving up, i simply changed the designs and eliminated the problem, it has gotten to the point where i can serriosly doubt that an eroor has been made short of a very trivial one (like what the thing is actually made of for example, i was thinking about industrial strength plastic) whitch could be changed without a second thought. I truely belive any and all serios errors have been found and fixed, so now i have found no errors, what is you sugestion now? well i know what i am going to do, i am going to get as many talks and interveiw with phycasists with nondisclosure forms as i can, when i have enough people to back this up, thats when ill send in My Pattent.

Adam

P.S. Sorry if i sound a little grumpy, im tired and i have to study for my Spanish exam tomorow :yuck:

[russ_watters]

friction, power source, acceleration, ect, all problems that mine has managed to get through... To help you focus, what you are looking for are 1st law of thermo issues. Don't bother with friction, acceleration, and other losses, they are 2nd law issues. What prevents PPMs from creating useful work is the 1st law: Pout=Pin. The fact that your calculations come up with a non-zero net (>100% efficiency) means you are either neglecting a source of input or a source of internal consumption. A typical thermodynamic engine, for example, has an efficiency of around 35%, before you even consider losses. Electrical devices have a theoretical maximum efficiency of 100%.

I may have suggested this before, but a cheap way to fix this would be to hire an electrical engineer for an hour or two, with a written contract stating that he can't market your device. He'd likely find your error in 5 minutes and charge you $125 for the whole hour, but it'd save you a ton of time and money in the long run.

[ram1024]

or build the device yourself out of popsicle sticks and elmer's. nothing like first hand experience to remove all doubt...

[Ravenlock]

Here is a actual quote from the US Patent Office regarding PPM's

"The views of the Patent Office are in accord with those scientists who have investigated the subject and are to the effect that such devices are physical impossibilities. The position of the Office can only be rebutted by a working model. ... The Office hesitates to accept fees from applicants who believe they have discovered Perpetual Motion, and deems it only fair to give such applicants a word of warning that fees cannot be recovered after the case has been considered by the Examiner"

I just thought that was interesting.

[Arsonade]

Here is a actual quote from the US Patent Office regarding PPM's

"The views of the Patent Office are in accord with those scientists who have investigated the subject and are to the effect that such devices are physical impossibilities. The position of the Office can only be rebutted by a working model. ... The Office hesitates to accept fees from applicants who believe they have discovered Perpetual Motion, and deems it only fair to give such applicants a word of warning that fees cannot be recovered after the case has been considered by the Examiner"

I just thought that was interesting.

i belive that it says, Can only be rebutted by a working model, so ill build a working model, i already said that i plan to

Adam

[Arsonade]

To help you focus, what you are looking for are 1st law of thermo issues. Don't bother with friction, acceleration, and other losses, they are 2nd law issues. What prevents PPMs from creating useful work is the 1st law: Pout=Pin. The fact that your calculations come up with a non-zero net (>100% efficiency) means you are either neglecting a source of input or a source of internal consumption. A typical thermodynamic engine, for example, has an efficiency of around 35%, before you even consider losses. Electrical devices have a theoretical maximum efficiency of 100%.

I may have suggested this before, but a cheap way to fix this would be to hire an electrical engineer for an hour or two, with a written contract stating that he can't market your device. He'd likely find your error in 5 minutes and charge you $125 for the whole hour, but it'd save you a ton of time and money in the long run.

Now hold on, i never said that it worked at 100% efficiancy, i said that it was close, there is very little error available in the design and therefore works relitively efficiant. would that be more expensive that asking a physisist? and the electronics are not really the problem, the only elctic component is the generator.

Adam

[Arsonade]

or build the device yourself out of popsicle sticks and elmer's. nothing like first hand experience to remove all doubt...

lol well popsticle sticks would break and wouldnt give me nearly enough info, it wouldnt even be big enough for the magnets, no, i cant go that cheep.

Adam

[ram1024]

use smaller magnets.

if it works on a small scale it'll work on a larger scale as well. nothing says your machine has to be house-sized ;D

[ArmoSkater87]

u cant use magnets for a perpetual motion machine, magnet (permanent ones) wear off over time. Eletromagnets are a whole different story, and obviously cant be used for perpetual motion.

[russ_watters]

Now hold on, i never said that it worked at 100% efficiancy, i said that it was close, there is very little error available in the design and therefore works relitively efficiant. If it doesn't work at above 100% efficiency then it doesn't output more than is put in and it isn't a PMM. If its just a >1 C.O.P., (like a heat pump or a hydroelectric dam) then it isn't perpetual motion. would that be more expensive that asking a physisist? and the electronics are not really the problem, the only elctic component is the generator. Ask whatever type of scientist/engineer that would understand the energy input/conversion. I was getting the picture that you have a fancy circuit of some sort that makes it appear you are getting more out than is being put in. That's why I suggested an EE.

May I ask what type of energy you have for an input?

[Arsonade]

u cant use magnets for a perpetual motion machine, magnet (permanent ones) wear off over time. Eletromagnets are a whole different story, and obviously cant be used for perpetual motion.

Look theses magnets do wear out, but the energy used im making them is easyly 1 billionth of the amount of energy produced in the length of time, the chances of me having to replace these magnets is slim, but in that event i am ready.

Adam

[Arsonade]

use smaller magnets.

if it works on a small scale it'll work on a larger scale as well. nothing says your machine has to be house-sized ;D

cant getem that small, it needs to be at least 2 feet high

Adam

[Arsonade]

If it doesn't work at above 100% efficiency then it doesn't output more than is put in and it isn't a PMM. If its just a >1 C.O.P., (like a heat pump or a hydroelectric dam) then it isn't perpetual motion. Ask whatever type of scientist/engineer that would understand the energy input/conversion. I was getting the picture that you have a fancy circuit of some sort that makes it appear you are getting more out than is being put in. That's why I suggested an EE.

May I ask what type of energy you have for an input?

really there is no kind of imput energy, that would kind of take away from the meaning of a closed system, magnettic? is that a good answer lol. Ill try the best i can with the nondisclosure form stuff, im workin on it.\

Adam

[jammieg]

The universe is in itself a perpetual motion machine, I'll bet with many more undiscovered ways of tapping into it's energy and manipulating it.

[OscarM]

Frequent error is to have an error related to "magnet shielding" using diamagnetic material.

Normally, It is considered that diamagnetic "shields" (lowered) the magnetic field through it but really generates an opposite magnetic field that not only covered the space through it else modify the surronding space like a normal magnet.

[Arsonade]

The universe is in itself a perpetual motion machine, I'll bet with many more undiscovered ways of tapping into it's energy and manipulating it.

Exactly, PMMs are all around us; the Water cycle, the CO2/ Oxygen cycle, the Nitrogen cycle, all cycles that should go on as long as the earth exists.

I know about the magnet things, they really arent that important, it would just act in making the building of it easyer, also, some people i have talked to have givin me the idea that it would make my PMM run more efficiently, so ill use what i have. (whitch at the moment is nothing lol)

Adam

[Arsonade]

reply to vern on other post (its linked to here);

Ok; let me guess.

We take an electric motor, connect it to an electrical generator, connect the output of the generator to a step-up voltage transformer with a low voltage tap connected to the motor. The low voltage tap is designed to be the correct voltage for the motor. Then we take the high voltage output of the step-up transformer and power the world with it.

This one comes from folks who learn a little something about voltage transformers but don't understand how power works. It is very common; there's even a patent on it; it doesn't work, of course.

Vern

lol dude i didnt even know what a step-up voltage transformer was untuil you just mentioned it, why doesnt it work? can electricity not be divided that way or somthing, but anyway no thats not it, not close even, hav u red the post?

Adam