Understanding Diffusion: The Role of Statistical Properties in Particle Movement

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanisms of diffusion, specifically addressing why particles move from regions of high concentration to low concentration. It explores theoretical concepts, statistical properties, and the implications of random motion in particle dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that particles move from high to low concentration due to random motion, leading to a net drift from areas of higher concentration.
  • One participant emphasizes that this movement is a result of maximizing entropy, framing it as a natural outcome of random interactions rather than a directed effort by the particles.
  • Another participant questions whether the random motion is influenced by external factors, such as the bombardment of air molecules, referencing Brownian Motion.
  • It is noted that random motion can occur in a pure species, independent of air molecules, and that statistical properties like temperature and pressure are used to describe the state of a system without needing to track individual particles.
  • There is a discussion about the utility of the concept of maximizing entropy as a framework for analyzing diffusion and related problems.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the underlying reasons for particle movement and the role of entropy, with no clear consensus on the primary explanation for diffusion. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the influence of external factors on random motion.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of tracking individual particles and the limitations of using statistical properties to describe systems, highlighting the challenges in fully understanding diffusion at a granular level.

hexrd
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what makes the particles move from a high concentration to a lower concentration?
 
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Consider two adjacent regions A,B,(of water, for example) which has different concentrations of a solvent (for example, salt).

Let the boundary between these two regions be permeable for the solvent.
(Think of A and B as the two halves of a tank)

Now, every molecule of the solvent moves in a random fashion.
Hence, the fraction of molecules in A that passes over into B (that is, the percentege of the molecules contained in A) should equal the percentage of molecules originally in B that passes into A.

But then it follows that the actual number of molecules passing from the region of higher concentration must be higher than the number of molecules passing over from the region of lower concentration.

Hence, you have a net drift of molecules from the region of higher concentration into the region of lower concentration.

It is important to realize that the molecules themselves couldn't care less about which region they belong to; diffusion is the net effect of random motion.
 
"Perfectly" random motion.
 
hexrd said:
what makes the particles move from a high concentration to a lower concentration?

To maximize entropy. It's not that they specifically seek out regions of low concentration, though it could be viewed that way. They just get randomly shoved around (as arildno pointed out) till they are pretty much spread out uniformly. Even though I use the word "uniformly", the system is now more disordered, and it's harder for me to guess where a certain type of particle can be found. In the initial state of the system, I would have better odds of correctly guessing the location of this type of particle - since I know they are all concentrated in a certain region.
 
Gokul43201 said:
To maximize entropy.

Isn't this more of an answer to the question:
"Why do the particles exhibit (practically perfect) random motion?"

It seems to me that you chose to explain this fundamental phenomenon in your reply (which I merely stated as a fact)
 
Perhaps, but I was also setting up a framework for analysing other such problems - the concept of maximizing entropy is a useful tool and allows you to not have to go down to first priciples each time.
 
Is this random motion caused by the bombardment of air molecules? Like Brownian Motion?
 
Not necessarily. You can have random motion with a pure species that is not one of the species found in air. The random nature is due to our inability to monitor the particles individually (since there can be billions of billions of billions of them). The temperature and pressure of a gas are statistical properties. It would be another thing entirely to specify the state of a system by the positions and momenta of every particle in the system. Since we cannot do that (not practically nor even theoretically AFAIK), we use temperature, pressure, volume, entropy, and such to specify the state of the system. Since these properties are statistical wrt what each particle in the system is doing, then the system can be in a well defined statistical state (i.e. T=300K, P=1atm) while any given particle undergoes completely unspecified motion.
 

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