Turning Salt Water into Fuel

[buffordboy23]

Here's the link:

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2007-11/turning-water-fuel

I find the idea interesting that the radio waves may assist in breaking the oxygen-hydrogen bonds of the water molecule. But, why should this effect only exist with salt water and not pure water? Salt water is ionic and permits current flow?

The applicability of such an idea for a potential fuel seems very far off. The radio wave generator requires a large energy input compared to the output from ignited gases.

[mgb_phys]

The applicability of such an idea for a potential fuel seems very far off. The radio wave generator requires a large energy input compared to the output from ignited gases.
It's not a fuel source, you need to put more energy in to break the O-H bond than you will get back when you make it again by burning.
At most it's a hydrogen generator - with the slightly inconvenient feature that it generates an explosive H2 O2 mix rather than just H2

[buffordboy23]

It's not a fuel source, you need to put more energy in to break the O-H bond than you will get back when you make it again by burning.

Yes, this makes sense in regard to the setup of this device.

According to the article,
Roy thinks the sodium chloride in the water may weaken the bonds between the oxygen and hydrogen atoms, which are broken free by radio waves. It's these gas molecules that are igniting, he explains, not the liquid itself. Tests show that the reaction disappears once the radio waves stop. Roy plans to conduct more tests to get to the bottom of the mystery.

What about the idea of using radio waves to break the bonds? How would that work? I've seen various claims before, which include using resonance frequencies (not the claim here though), but have yet to see a reputable source of validation. From the appearance of this setup, my current thoughts include some quasi-electrolysis effect due to the ionic components of the solution and increased thermal agitation caused by radio waves.

[Ivan Seeking]

A previous discussion.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=172018

[buffordboy23]

Thanks for the link.

The article link in the other thread actually discusses the same "discovery" as the one I posted in this thread.

There is a lot of bad science in that article. First, the salt water does not ignite; it's the hydrogen and oxygen gases. Second, the energy inputs required to heat the water and create the gases require far more energy than usable energy outputted from the combustion of gases.

Case closed.

[Ivan Seeking]

Thanks for the link.

The article link in the other thread actually discusses the same "discovery" as the one I posted in this thread.

Yes, but the point of linking the thread was the discussion that follows.

There is a lot of bad science in that article. First, the salt water does not ignite; it's the hydrogen and oxygen gases. Second, the energy inputs required to heat the water and create the gases require far more energy than usable energy outputted from the combustion of gases.

Case closed.

Correct.

[The Dagda]

The only use of sea water really, is in fusion fuel production, as said breaking down water into it's constituents is energy heavy.

[Butterfly_grl]

It's not a fuel source, you need to put more energy in to break the O-H bond than you will get back when you make it again by burning.
At most it's a hydrogen generator - with the slightly inconvenient feature that it generates an explosive H2 O2 mix rather than just H2

Simply, could you explain a proof for the energy variation. I can't understand why more energy is consumed than released. According to the law of conservation of energy " energy can not be created nor destroyed but it can be converted from one form to another"

so Is there an explaination?

thanks.

[mgb_phys]

Yes to be strictly accurate you will get out exactly the same energy from the bond that you put in = conservation of energy.
But the system as a whole will not be perfectly efficent, there will be waste heat for instance, so overall the machine will take more energy to split the water than you will get back when you burn it.