View Full Version : Heimskringla thread
this is a separate thread for sharing page references
in the heimskringla of Snorri
who was a nominally christian Icelander born in 1177
the Heimskringla is a long book with many chapters
one chapter for each of the kings of Norway (or rulers in case
of no norwegian king)
because it is long, it is hard to find the good parts
and this is why one needs a thread to exchange information
about how to find the good parts
by good parts is meant something very special
as when the queen of Sweden had so many suitors who wanted to marry her that she asked them all to gather in a certain church and then burned it down
and then she said "this will teach kinglets not to come wooing me"
also a good part is where the sons of Bue were all sitting side by side on a log waiting to have their heads chopped off and their conversation was remembered in detail
but before that there was the drinking party in Denmark where bue said what he would do when they invaded norway, and then all the others felt they should say what they would do-----these conversations are also recorded in considerable detail
and then there was the time Earl Hakon had to hide in the pigsty
and the time that someone I forget who put the priests off the boat
(the Danish king had given him priests and told him to take them back to norway with him-----he did not put them off the boat right away but
waited until he had a good wind and then dropped them off: this shows Snorri's appreciation of detail)
the thing about Snorri is, in part, that he belongs to an Icelandic tradition of factual storytelling. there were two recognized kinds of Sagas----the fairytale kind where supernatural stuff happens and the factual historical kind where you try to get everything sober and truthful. there are in existence about on the order of 100 historical sagas from several centuries and they corroborate each other
people in that time listened to each other carefully and recounted actions precisely and could tell years afterwards what someone said and did.
Iceland was settled by a small number of families who watched each other and knew quarrels and marriages and lawsuits and stuff, and who had time in the winter to recall and talk about it.
So back in norway they would welcome guests from Iceland and the Icelanders became like historians---even back in Norway, where they used to go a lot---and Snorri was like a specialist in norwegian history
and he lived at a time when people had learned how to write so he wrote the stories down
and a lot of it would probably not interest most of us
especially at the beginning i do not like it because it deals in a somewhat perfunctory way with gods and stuff like that
you have to get into it further on and then it gets convincingly factual
with very little that is supernatural (besides people sometimes having premonitions in their dreams, and well Finns-----Finns, as opposed to normal people, do traffic some in sorcery so you have to watch out for them)
the problem with Heimskringla is that it is a big book. so if anyone reads it they should please post here which chapters have good parts
I own the translation by shucks who is he, his name begins with H.
and he is a really good translator. I will get the book and find out.
this is a book that when you lend it you dont get it back unless you bug the person
I own the translation by shucks who is he, his name begins with H.
and he is a really good translator. I will get the book and find out.
this is a book that when you lend it you dont get it back unless you bug the personPlease let me know, I'd like to buy it.
I found this link to the Heimskringla and this is what I have started reading.
marcus, if you have a few minutes, can you look at some of it and let me know if the translation is good or if I should wait for the version you have?
I agree with you that how the original text is translated can make a very big difference.
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/
Please let me know, I'd like to buy it.
I found this link to the Heimskringla and this is what I have started reading.
marcus, if you have a few minutes, can you look at some of it and let me know if the translation is good or if I should wait for the version you have?
I agree with you that how the original text is translated can make a very big difference.
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/
this is interesting, the quality of translation is a secondary issue,
let us share passages
you may not like this one, which is rather gruesome
chapter 46 of
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/trygvason2.html
it comes very near the beginning of that page. that page begins with chapter 44 so you just scroll down one screen or so
arildno
Jun13-04, 02:58 PM
Well, have a good reading both of you!
Personally, I absolutely adore Snorri's style, and can't really help you picking out "good parts" (since I love all of it!)
If you get through Snorri, you might try Saxo Grammaticus, a Danish historian writing a generation prior to Snorri.
His style is abominable (to say the least), but there's quite a few good parts in between (for example, the original story about Hamlet)
Look at chapter 27 and 28
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/trygvason1.html
these chapters are about 60 percent down the page
they are short chapters which both fit on one screen
in this version he does not throw them overboard but
"puts them ashore" at the mouth of a fjord as he prepared
to put out to sea
these are the priests given to Earl Hakon by Bishop Poppo
Earl hakon is always causing trouble.
this Bishop Poppo carried hot irons in his hand which convinced
King Harald of Denmark to be baptized. you see the King was a sensible man and required empirical evidence :wink:
for some reason I cant find the story of that proud queen who
took determined means to discourage her suitors
there it is, chapter 48 in trygvason2
the story of Sigrid the Haughty
it was one of her guest halls she burned down with the suitors inside,
not a church (as I remembered it)
she comes across as a complex individual
he should not have been courting her in the first place, you understand
she gave him excellent entertainment the first time he came
to visit, but he couldnt make up his mind then and there and had to
go home to think about it----this was fatal
there it is, chapter 48 in trygvason2
the story of Sigrid the Haughty
it was one of her guest halls she burned down with the suitors inside,
not a church (as I remembered it)
she comes across as a complex individualJust a bit. :wink:
he should not have been courting her in the first place, you understand
she gave him excellent entertainment the first time he came
to visit, but he couldnt make up his mind then and there and had to
go home to think about it----this was fatalIt's amazing to me what seemed (acceptable?) back then. I read that part earlier today.
I did not find chapter 46 too gruesome. The way the tales are told just depict life (and death) the way it was then. I found the part about Sigurd and his hair to be quite clever.
Evo look at this and weep. His profile says he has a masters in fluid mechanics which means I guess an engineer. do I know an american engineer who likes chaucer?
Well, have a good reading both of you!
Personally, I absolutely adore Snorri's style, and can't really help you picking out "good parts" (since I love all of it!)
If you get through Snorri, you might try Saxo Grammaticus, a Danish historian writing a generation prior to Snorri.
His style is abominable (to say the least), but there's quite a few good parts in between (for example, the original story about Hamlet)
No I dont know an american engineer who likes chaucer, not with such zest anyway
the trouble with Earl hakon was he was a womanizer, he was an OK earl except for that.
it was his mistress who put him up in her pigsty when there was that uprising of the farmers (and the king had just come from ireland).
BTW I was wrong about the extent of superstition. Now on re-reading Snorri I see supernatural prescience in dreams and a widespread belief that people (even ordinary, not just Finns) can do sorcery.
so I was wrong, there was more credulity than I remembered. but maybe there is still an idea there
Hollander calls the farmers of the Trondheim district "farmers" and not serfs or bondsmen or peasants etc. I think he got that right. they act like
rather independent freehold farmers. so there are little nuances that differ in the translation but it is not a big deal
I am very glad you found this online Snorri
heimskringla means (world-circle) sort of ....what?
it is the first word in the original, so the book is named after its first word
Evo look at this and weep. His profile says he has a masters in fluid mechanics which means I guess an engineer. do I know an american engineer who likes chaucer?Not to my knowledge, and I know more than my fair share of engineers. :wink:
the trouble with Earl hakon was he was a womanizer, he was an OK earl except for that.
it was his mistress who put him up in her pigsty when there was that uprising of the farmers (and the king had just come from ireland).marcus, I love your commentary on this thread! It has humour and wit. It makes reading the chapters even better!
I love reading chronicles like this. Getting an inside look into the minds of people that lived back then is so fascinating to me.
Your input makes it even better. :smile:
Your input makes it even better. :smile:
not an uncommon experience when sharing a book
your interest got me to fetch that one off the
shelf, and led to considerable pleasure
I'm thinking that a lot of Medieval literature must
be online
eg many icelandic sagas
dante
medieval germans like Walther von der Vogelweide
early secular lyric poets/songwriters like William of Aquitaine
(who was the grandfather of Eleanor---she has a bit more
name-recognition)
people must do this, I mean co-read medieval classics online
for amusement and comment on some kind of
message board
what languages do you read in.
I read a bit of french italian mittelhochdeutsch, but only
in some cases with the help of a pony
that is, I tend to enjoy a passage of Inferno only
after having looked at an english version so I know
what it's about already
Well, have a good reading both of you!
Personally, I absolutely adore Snorri's style, and can't really help you picking out "good parts" (since I love all of it!)
If you get through Snorri, you might try Saxo Grammaticus, a Danish historian writing a generation prior to Snorri.
His style is abominable (to say the least), but there's quite a few good parts in between (for example, the original story about Hamlet)
Happy Birthday Arildno
hope you had a good 33rd trip around the sun
(the board says it's Arildno's birthday today)
why dont you join us for some medieval pleasure-reading
which will help to keep everything regular
see Canto V of the inferno, F and P would have been saved
considerable inconvenience if there had been a third member of their book club.
maybe, for all I know, the good thing about Saxo Grammaticus (besides the name) is just what you mentioned: his abominable style
can you find Saxo in english online? will the translator be able to
achieve the proper pitch of abomination
another medieval writer I love is Procopius
does anyone know his Secret History of the empress theodora
hoo wah!
your interest got me to fetch that one off the
shelf, and led to considerable pleasureWho was the author?
I'm thinking that a lot of Medieval literature must
be onlineYes, I'm finding quite a bit online, which is really nice. Now I just wish I had more time to read!
early secular lyric poets/songwriters like William of Aquitaine
(who was the grandfather of Eleanor---she has a bit more
name-recognition)She was a remarkable woman. Have you read Eleanor of Aquitane & the Four Kings by Amy Kelly?
people must do this, I mean co-read medieval classics online
for amusement and comment on some kind of
message boardI have seen some historical literature review sites, but mainly it was just posting a book review. Hmmm, I should do a search.
what languages do you read in.
I read a bit of french italian mittelhochdeutsch, but only
in some cases with the help of a pony
that is, I tend to enjoy a passage of Inferno only
after having looked at an english version so I know
what it's about alreadyOnly English fluently. I used to be able to read French when I was younger, but due to lack of use, I struggle now.
Happy Birthday Arildno
hope you had a good 33rd trip around the sun
(the board says it's Arildno's birthday today)Happy birthday Arildno!!
why dont you join us for some medieval pleasure-reading
which will help to keep everything regular
see Canto V of the inferno, F and P would have been saved
considerable inconvenience if there had been a third member of their book club.Arildno, you must join in. I am afraid I am bit too lowbrow for someone with the level of knowledge marcus has. Although marcus would never come out and say so.
maybe, for all I know, the good thing about Saxo Grammaticus (besides the name) is just what you mentioned: his abominable style
can you find Saxo in english online? will the translator be able to
achieve the proper pitch of abomination The same place I found the Heimskringla, the University of Berkeley Online Medieval & Classical Library has it.
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/
another medieval writer I love is Procopius
does anyone know his Secret History of the empress theodora
hoo wah!Thanks to you, I just found it, http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/procop-anec.html at a wonderful site for Medieval and ancient history from Fordham University Center for Medieval Studies.
I'm like a kid in a candy store!! :tongue2:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html
the location of our eyebrows is not at issue
you have found a treasure on the web
merely look, if you have not already, at Chapter 9 paragraph 9
Slaves to whom the duty was entrusted would then scatter grains of barley from above into the calyx of this passion flower, whence geese, trained for the purpose, would next pick the grains one by one with their bills and eat.
is it not well-translated? the "whence geese"...
the outrage of procopius is akin to love for the lady
(it reaches that height)
I can do without Saxo Grammaticus for the while,
however anyone wanting to see the story of Amleth
the son Gorwendil who feigned madness and took
revenge on his uncle Feng can look in book III
about 3/5 of the way down the page. It continues on
into book IV. Saxo is long-winded
Theodora's father was a bear-trainer and her mother was a stage mom.
She herself became a circus-performer and so delighted the Emperor Justinian that he married her.
If she ever did anything bad in the book I am sure it was made up by Procopius, for he had a rabid clerical imagination.
has anyone (besides me) been to Ravenna and seen the
largescale portraits of Theodora and Justinian in the Cathedral there?
it is fine mosaic work
Theodora is surrounded by her ladies.
the trained geese are nowhere in sight
If she ever did anything bad in the book I am sure it was made up by Procopius, for he had a rabid clerical imagination.He definitely has a very poor opinion of her. I wonder how much of it is true. Some talented geese. :bugeye: I need to go to sleep, my mind is fried, but it's hard to stop reading.
these people built the Agia Sophia----the greatest domed building of its time---justinian's people, theodora's
Procopius was a member of their court, worked for them and knew them personally. And wrote this account of them that has a kind of
surreal authenticity
Oh yes, goodnight Evo. I was just talking to myself (didnt expect you were about)
arildno
Jun15-04, 05:30 PM
Saxo is long-winded
Long-winded??
That's the worst understatement I've ever heard!!
He is tedious, repetitious, fond of saying the same more than once, going about in circles, writing long sentences witout content, paraphrasing himself over and over again..
(I think I just had a saxogrammatical fit here..:wink:)
He is tedious, repetitious, fond of saying the same more than once, going about in circles, writing long sentences witout content, paraphrasing himself over and over again..Sounds like me trying to leave a message on an answering machine. I'm terrible.
We may have three people.
that would be enough to read an online medieval book
for me the purpose would be to enjoy the frame of mind
of one or more cultural ancestors
somebody just said something about this on the Pagan thread,
I forget his name. he just said that to connect with minds of
people back then you could do various things like go to museums
it is certainly a leisure-time activity! but I feel a need for it.
as for something online that 3 people can share, there is no
simple museum but there are books.
for me, with medieval European minds, it does not matter if they
are nominally christian or non-christian
(William of Aquitaine the first European secular rhyming songwriter
whose lyrics have come down to us, can hardly be called a christian since
be lived most of his life in utter disrepect of everything, or so I think---
he led a crusade once but it was such a complete disaster that he had to escape by boat. I think he lived around 1100 a little before Snorri)
to me the time between Procopius (600?) and Snorri (1200?) is
a good time and the people of that time thought very much as I imagine
Europeans usually think----it was just more obvious.
of course I would welcome being corrected if anybody knows about this.
If Evo and Arildno will stay with this and we can read a online medieval book together----I do not care what it is as long as all three enjoy it----then I think we will find out some things about the frame of mind of these old cultural antecedent people.
If Evo and Arildno will stay with this and we can read a online medieval book together----I do not care what it is as long as all three enjoy it----then I think we will find out some things about the frame of mind of these old cultural antecedent people.I would love that. Marcus, I will let you and Arildno decide on the book. I think both of your insights will add tremendously to my understanding and enjoyment.
Marcus, did you read my post #12? I was wondering who the author was of the book you had.
Marcus, did you read my post #12? I was wondering who the author was of the book you had.
Sorry I forgot to reply, I was talking about my Hollander translation of the Heimskringla----after you started reading the online version I went and got it (wasnt sure I had it till then)
the online version seems fine
we really need a third person, more than just two, to make a reading circle
and Arildno may not be available for some reason----we just have to wait.
Now you have read in both my favorite medieval books
I would like to know if you have any preference
otherwise I will think like this: Arildno like all Norwegians has read
Heimskringla since 10 years old so if we want him to be interested we
should think about something else.
Nobody likes old Saxo Grammaticus
You and i have read Chaucer
I really dont know anything else but Procopius
You found him on line.
Of course he's insane---you may find that hard to take.
there is a place where he argues the emperor justinian was a Devil
who took on human shape and he says he used to sneak into the
throneroom when J. thought he was by himself and watch his face
change and horns grow out of his head and fangs appear and disappear.
this was his employer, who hired him to be the official court historian,
and this is what the historian calmly and solemnly reports about him in private.
Not everyone has the taste for procopius.
if we read the Secret History we should make a list of all the bad things
P says about the two of them J + T. and as an exercise, see if you can
adopt a frame of mind where you believe everything on the list.
I think he believed the things he said, or in any case thought them credible.
I hope Arildno will join us----two is heavy/ three is light. one needs it very light to read a book like the Secret History
we really need a third person, more than just two, to make a reading circle
and Arildno may not be available for some reason----we just have to wait.For your sake, a third person would be beneficial. I love ancient and medieval history, but I am afraid that my wacky sense of humor knows no limits and I would need someone else to reign me in.
Now you have read in both my favorite medieval books
I would like to know if you have any preference
otherwise I will think like this: Arildno like all Norwegians has read
Heimskringla since 10 years old so if we want him to be interested we
should think about something else. I agree.
Nobody likes old Saxo Grammaticus
You and i have read Chaucer
I really dont know anything else but Procopius
You found him on line.
Of course he's insane---you may find that hard to take.
there is a place where he argues the emperor justinian was a Devil
who took on human shape and he says he used to sneak into the
throneroom when J. thought he was by himself and watch his face
change and horns grow out of his head and fangs appear and disappear.
this was his employer, who hired him to be the official court historian,
and this is what the historian calmly and solemnly reports about him in private.
Not everyone has the taste for procopius.Procopius seems to have a fervent distaste for both Theodora & Justinian in his writings.
if we read the Secret History we should make a list of all the bad things
P says about the two of them J + T. and as an exercise, see if you can
adopt a frame of mind where you believe everything on the list.
I think he believed the things he said, or in any case thought them credible.I wonder if there was a catalyst for the distaste procopius had for his employer. Was he this condemning of them from the very beginning? Or did his contempt start with Theodora?
Is there some background information on procopius that would help in ascertaining his frame of mind?
I hope Arildno will join us----two is heavy/ three is light. one needs it very light to read a book like the Secret HistoryI hope that for your sake, Arildno joins in. I alone would not be a worthy contributor.
arildno
Jun16-04, 01:57 AM
I would like to join in on this thread; I have read a few extracts of Procopius earlier, it was quite an enjoyable treatise..
marcus, I also think the period from approx. the collapse of the Roman West to the High Middle ages is a fascinating time.
It is quite some time since I read Heimskringla, so perhaps it's time to reread it?
I have a vague remembrance of having read Gregor of Tour's "History of the Franks" once; that might be another choice.
Evo, this is just me speculating:
It is well-known that Justinian, stepped into the role as the prime defender/promoter of the Christian faith/strength of the church, perhaps more strongly than rulers before him. (I think this is fairly well attested, not only by Procopius)
Now, as any other man, Justinian would have his foibles&weaknesses. But if he displayed himself to the public as the prime defender of God&moral authority, couldn't a person close by him (like Procopius) easily interpret J as being hypocritical, and hence, over time come to despise him utterly (whatever J "objectively" might have done)?
And to both of you, many thanks for congratulating me on the 14th!
Good, we're set.
It's 11 here so i'm going off to bed.
tomorrow we can read some more of the Secret History and
sort procopius out a little.
Evo, this is just me speculating:
It is well-known that Justinian, stepped into the role as the prime defender/promoter of the Christian faith/strength of the church, perhaps more strongly than rulers before him. (I think this is fairly well attested, not only by Procopius)
Now, as any other man, Justinian would have his foibles&weaknesses. But if he displayed himself to the public as the prime defender of God&moral authority, couldn't a person close by him (like Procopius) easily interpret J as being hypocritical, and hence, over time come to despise him utterly (whatever J "objectively" might have done)?Arildno, I am so happy you will be the third. Yes, what you say is very likely. These are the points I am missing right now.
marcus explained who procopius was, but what I have been missing is his mindset in all of this. He obviously holds both T & J in contempt, but as the person hired to chronicle their lives, this seems at odds. Perhaps I should first get more background, a better understanding of procopius, before I read more of what he has to say? Or just more of the history surrounding this event in time?
Goodnight marcus!!
Marcus,
I've read through some of your posts on the 'Heimskringla'. It is very interesting, but are you sure you know what it is you are reading?
The Heimskringla is a re-writing of the Hebrew scriptures - but put in such a way that the people of that day could understand and also conceal their sacred knowledge.
well it has been 16 hours since that was posted and no one
seems to want to pursue it.
Arildno said he read H. a long time back and wouldnt mind rereading, so at least in theory we could be reading and discussing both books I like so much namely both Snorri and Procopius.
Question to Arildno about Heimskringla: As I get back into reading it, I see that all the favorite things I remember come from Olaf Tryg
this is a very entertaining saga with lots of good stories.
Suppose you had to pick just one other King's saga that would also be like that, what would it be?
Arildno please name just one other piece of Heimskringla which could be a favorite because of it's good anecdotes. We can try it out.
I also have forgotten a lot from when I read this book.
Question to Evo about Procopius: I have felt for a long time that P. is so outraged by T. because he adores her. She is very fascinating to a man like him----a celibate priest, a clerical worker, a man of books. she is an erotic dancer, she performs with animals in the circus, she throws wild parties, she has a lot of fun and she completely ignores him but he cant stop thinking of her and so it turns to a furious anger.
Can you imagine this?
Does it seem reasonable to you?
his only possible defense from her charisma is rabid condemnation
(perhaps it is a very common thing that happens, not just in this one situation)
Question to Evo and Arildno: I want to say that the thing about the middleages is that in medieval times the Europeans were just the way they always are, except that it was more obvious then.
I am encouraged by what Arildno said a couple of posts back about the medieval period--- maybe you agree?
arildno
Jun17-04, 02:21 AM
marcus:
If I should pick just one saga (and not be allowed to choose O.T), I have always enjoyed the story about Harold Hairfair.
It begins ominous enough, in Halvdan the Black's tale (his dad), when 12 year old Harold wants to join a party (or something), but is rebuffed by his Dad for being merely a child and told to get out.
Incensed by this indignity, the boy makes arrangements with a Finnish sorcerer to make the ice on the Randsfjord rot, so that when Halvdan rides over it, the ice breaks, and he drowns.
And thus, Harold became king..
Ok, it's a rather fanciful story that can't be seen as particularly reliable. However, there are quite a few good anecdotes in it; they might not be strictly true, but I would think that these anecdotes survived/developed
on basis on the personality Harold was perceived to possess (they might accurately reflect his "public image" as king).
I have no trouble with reading Procopius either; as it happened, I read it through yesterday in order to gain a basis to discuss from.
I noticed that Procopius explicitly stated that he himself had not seen J turn into a devil, but had heard it from very good sources..
Question to Evo about Procopius: I have felt for a long time that P. is so outraged by T. because he adores her. She is very fascinating to a man like him----a celibate priest, a clerical worker, a man of books. she is an erotic dancer, she performs with animals in the circus, she throws wild parties, she has a lot of fun and she completely ignores him but he cant stop thinking of her and so it turns to a furious anger.
Can you imagine this?
Does it seem reasonable to you? his only possible defense from her charisma is rabid condemnation
(perhaps it is a very common thing that happens, not just in this one situation)?It makes perfect sense. She must have been quite a woman. I find it interesting how often in history lust/love for a beautiful woman seems to have so strongly affected the minds and actions of men.
I am encouraged by what Arildno said a couple of posts back about the medieval period--- maybe you agree?About the time period? Yes, I agree.
If I should pick just one saga (and not be allowed to choose O.T), I have always enjoyed the story about Harold Hairfair.I was just reading about Harald Fairhair yesterday. An interesting story of how he got the name, being previosly called Harald Shockhead due to an oath he swore to Gyda not to comb or cut his hair until he ruled all of Norway.
You two pick the story, I'm sure whatever you decide on will be great.
arildno
Jun17-04, 05:47 PM
I have felt for a long time that P. is so outraged by T. because he adores her. She is very fascinating to a man like him----a celibate priest, a clerical worker, a man of books. she is an erotic dancer, she performs with animals in the circus, she throws wild parties, she has a lot of fun and she completely ignores him but he cant stop thinking of her and so it turns to a furious anger.
Can you imagine this?
Does it seem reasonable to you? his only possible defense from her charisma is rabid condemnation
(perhaps it is a very common thing that happens, not just in this one situation)?
From my impression of Theodora and Procopius, I would say that Procopius would be just the type of guy Theodora would love to poke fun at..delighting in humiliating/ridiculing him..
(I feel a bit sorry for Procopius, I think she was very good at making men stumble&mumble in front of her..)
I was just reading about Harald Fairhair yesterday. An interesting story of how he got the name, being previosly called Harald Shockhead due to an oath he swore to Gyda not to comb or cut his hair until he ruled all of Norway.
Perhaps this tidbit is of interest:
The original Norse word for "Shockhead " (Luva) had two meanings:
Shockhead, and birthcaul (I think that's the word in English).
Now, most historians tend to believe that Harald got his byname Luva due to having been born with a birthcaul, because it is documented that this was regarded as a portentious event; that something special could be expected from such a child.
Hence, that a chieftain's son might get a byname due to a somewhat unusual birth has a certain credibility.
Hello Evo and Arildno, in the last two days I completely lost focus.
I was reading Saint Olaf's saga and got to the place where the King of Sweden refers to St. O as "that fat man".
I didnt know Olaf was so heavy
As for Halfdan falling through the ice, my version gives the real reason. That winter, some farmers had been watering their cattle on the ice. they drive them out on the ice and make a hole in the ice for them to drink.
And the dung had darkened the ice. ordinary ice reflects, but
dark-stained ice absorbs heat from sunlight, and so it was rotten.
But in Arildno's version, that he remembers, it was because of that Finn (finns are often sorcerers) who rotted the ice for Harald because he was angry at his Dad. Every boy should have a sorcerer for a friend and then fathers would all be much nicer, or else!
And it was exquisite that procopius who is lying a mile a minute suddenly stops and says "I have heard from reliable sources that...."
there is an elegance in storytelling when the teller sometimes distances himself and goes "the men of Egypt say that...."
and "the Persians believe that the Indians have so much gold because they obtain it in the following way...."
you know what I mean---he pretends to be a judicious man who is prudently evaluating his sources.
And so Arildno reminded me that Procopius did not himself witness his employer the Emperor Justinian changing into a demon and back, but he was told of this by others whose word he trusted.
They saw the horns sprouting and being reabsorbed and a kind of blur around his face as he was changing---so that Justinian's true nature of a devil was revealed to them.
I expect that we have all had employers like that at one time or another.
BTW I am completely unfocussed and distracted (apologies) and my mind keeps going back to what Herodotus said about what the men of Persia told him about how the Indians get their large supply of gold.
It involves both a male and female camel.
Evo would you care to try something like "Herodotus gold camel" or
"Herodotus gold camel ant"?
I have the Penguin classic edition of herodotus, but it is doubtless online too.
the Persians had invaded Greece and been beaten
and Herodotus was traveling around in the persian empire
doing research for his history book by asking questions
and one day some persians said to themselves "here is this Greek,
let us see what we can get him to believe" and so, in a nice
way they took revenge for the dreadful seabattle of Salamis and
other indignities they had suffered.
arildno
Jun18-04, 04:37 PM
Hi again!
I was reading Saint Olaf's saga and got to the place where the King of Sweden refers to St. O as "that fat man".
I didnt know Olaf was so heavy
Actually, St.Olaf was not St.Olaf in life, but went by the nickname (guess what?) "Olaf the huge"
As for Halfdan falling through the ice, my version gives the real reason. That winter, some farmers had been watering their cattle on the ice. they drive them out on the ice and make a hole in the ice for them to drink.
And the dung had darkened the ice. ordinary ice reflects, but
dark-stained ice absorbs heat from sunlight, and so it was rotten.
But in Arildno's version, that he remembers, it was because of that Finn (finns are often sorcerers) who rotted the ice for Harald because he was angry at his Dad.
I believe both versions are present in my Snorri (I'll check it), but the other is soo mundane..
Every boy should have a sorcerer for a friend and then fathers would all be much nicer, or else!
Or even better, be one oneself to get rid of all the Dursleys in the world..
And it was exquisite that procopius who is lying a mile a minute suddenly stops and says "I have heard from reliable sources that...."
It's one of the most effective techniques in the art of character assassination..
I have the Penguin classic edition of herodotus, but it is doubtless online too.
I have that one myself (a 1950's edition, I think); it's a much more enjoyable read than Thucydides "History of the Pelopennesian wars"
T. is of course, a far more reliable historian than Herodotus, but did he really have to put in corroborating evidence from every f**king person involved in that war (all the range from diplomats to boatswains)..:eek:
BTW I am completely unfocussed and distracted (apologies) and my mind keeps going back to what Herodotus said about what the men of Persia told him about how the Indians get their large supply of gold.
Hm.. I've missed out on that one..
Do you know by the way, how Herodotus believes lions are reproduced?
Do you know by the way, how Herodotus believes lions are reproduced?
I will get my Penguin copy and look in the index under "lions, reproduction"
thanks for the lead!
there is no "lion" index entry in my copy of H.
[edit: found it anyway III, 108, how awful!]
for directions on how to get the gold using male and female camels
look in Book III
around section number 103-105
(I am not sure of the numbering)
there is no "lion" index entry in my copy of H.
[edit: found it anyway III, 108, how awful!]
for directions on how to get the gold using male and female camels
look in Book III
around section number 103-105
(I am not sure of the numbering)I'm still at work, but I'm dying to see what you guys are reading. I will search for it when I get home.
I found both how lions reproduce and the ants/gold/camels.
Another favorite of mine is section III, 113. About what has to be done to prevent the sheep's tails from dragging the ground.
that is so charming!
and very thoughtful of the shepherds
this time i suspect that you had the book already
since you gave no link?
that is so charming!
and very thoughtful of the shepherds
this time i suspect that you had the book already
since you gave no link?No, I found it here. Sorry, I'm so distracted right now between too much work and not enough sleep.
http://www4.wittenberg.edu/academics/hist/dbrookshedstrom/105/herod.htm
No, I found it here. Sorry, I'm so distracted right now between too much work and not enough sleep.
http://www4.wittenberg.edu/academics/hist/dbrookshedstrom/105/herod.htm
not to be sorry! I also am a bit distracted. Henceforth we will proceed leisurely-wise, get sufficient sleep, and enjoy our reading the more for it.
not to be sorry! I also am a bit distracted. Henceforth we will proceed leisurely-wise, get sufficient sleep, and enjoy our reading the more for it.My problem is that when I start reading, I can't stop and I get no sleep.
I am enjoying reading everything you and arildno have suggested so far.
Once upon a time (this is a true story) there was a very wicked Duke of Milan
Im not sure but I think his name was Strozzi
or something like that, perhaps we could find out
this Duke was very sinful and he knew it, he did all kinds of bad things which he knew would make God angry at him
so the Duke devised a strategy of always having a lot of servants with him whose job it was to jump on him in case of thunderstorms
he went right on abducting virgins from the villages and doing all the other things he wasnt supposed to do, but he had these people ready to jump on him
and that way, he believed, he was safe from being struck by lightning
because the Almighty, in his justice, would not slay the innocent servants on top of the Duke. So as soon as he heard thunder the guilty Duke would fling himself on the ground and be flopped on by his innocent servants.
this was his shield against Righteous Vengeance carried out by means of an electrical storm.
this was in the Renaissance. I expect it was 16th century.
It was a european thing to do and involved a physical understanding of lightning bolts as well as a somewhat legalistic grasp of ethics---he cleverly deduced that the bolts would have to get the servants first if they were on top of him, so that if they were virtuous he was safe.
time for bed,
there may be other translations of herodotus on the web
that we could compare with the one you found---for style
I like the penguin one which is by a man born in 1896 whose name
was Aubrey de Selincourt---but i also like things to be available on the web
so I would be interested to know what is available
besides that one at the Wittenberg website.
perhaps sometime in the next few days I will have a look
I should be outside working on my yard. Oh well, never enough time. Perhaps I should quit my day job. :wink:
marcus and arildno, here are some of the links I have found and have been reading through.
This looks like a very interesting site. I haven't had a chance to really read through much yet, but it does have a lot of information on procopius, Justininan and Theodora, as well as Herodotus. It also has a discussion board.
This is the link to Justinian & Theodora.
http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/justinian/1.html
This is the home page. There are many links, texts & sources reviewed and posted. I plan to read through these, perhaps you an arildno may be interested in looking at this to see if there is useful information to discuss.
http://www.isidore-of-seville.com
Here are some other links I went to on Herodotus.
http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.html
http://courses.dce.harvard.edu/~clase116/txt_herdodotus.html
This is medieval/ancient history forum I found. It's brand new, so not too many members yet, but it is currently active.
http://www.talk-history.com/forum/
Another Herodotus link.
http://www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/
I should be outside working on my yard. Oh well, never enough time. Perhaps I should quit my day job. :wink:
marcus and arildno, here are some of the links I have found and have been reading through.
This looks like a very interesting site. I haven't had a chance to really read through much yet, but it does have a lot of information on procopius, Justininan and Theodora, as well as Herodotus. It also has a discussion board.
...
This is medieval/ancient history forum I found. It's brand new, so not too many members yet, but it is currently active.
http://www.talk-history.com/forum/
Another Herodotus link.
http://www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/
I was glad to see the mosaic portrait of Theodora from the church in Ravenna
It is interesting that they have a medieval/ancient history forum.
You found some good stuff!
We were in Big Sur today and just got back 10 minutes ago. I just turned on the computer to see if there was any post on the Heimsk. thread. Lo and behold.
the Nika riot was a good case where Theodora saved justinian's bacon (i.e. throne and probably life) by a cool decisive ruthlessness she had---a clearer idea of how to use power
It was a little like Los Angeles and they were into stock car racing
and it was connected to organized crime and political parties and justinian tried to suppress the excesses of it and the masses of the bubbas took offense and backlashed. they were getting ready to depose J but theodora knew just what to do which was to massacre a stadium full of racing fans, this got their attention and defused the situation. Please correct me if I am wrong.
so in the material you hunted up there was an account of the famous Nika riot
I have to turn in. It was a long drive. Tomorrow is another day. thanks for the links!
I was glad to see the mosaic portrait of Theodora from the church in RavennaYes, I've never seen it in person though. I must say I would not have thought her that attractive based on the mosaic.
We were in Big Sur today and just got back 10 minutes ago.How nice! I envy you living close to the coast. I grew up near the ocean and now I live in the plains of the midwest. I really miss the beach.
the Nika riot was a good case where Theodora saved justinian's bacon (i.e. throne and probably life) by a cool decisive ruthlessness she had---a clearer idea of how to use power
It was a little like Los Angeles and they were into stock car racing
and it was connected to organized crime and political parties and justinian tried to suppress the excesses of it and the masses of the bubbas took offense and backlashed. they were getting ready to depose J but theodora knew just what to do which was to massacre a stadium full of racing fans, this got their attention and defused the situation. Please correct me if I am wrong. I love your analogy. You pretty much nailed it.
I remember reading a lot of this when I was maybe 5-6 years old. My mother had an entire series of books on ancient history with each book covering a different period and I read them all. That was a VERY long time ago. It's all coming back now plus there are bits and pieces that I don't remember ever reading.
I remember reading a lot of this when I was maybe 5-6 years old. My mother had an entire series of books on ancient history with each book covering a different period and I read them all. .
that was a bit of luck
BTW in the Karla McLaren thread I thought both you and that other person had some very astute things to say, and I am not engaging in flattery
you saw through her to some extent---buttering up the pompous skeptics, who would be vulnerable to that----but presumably for a good cause: making them change their behavior
I'm a bit discouraged---just dont have the gumption to go through procopius (even though I see the book as entertaining and shedding considerable light on the period)
also I think nobody but me enjoys that anecdote about the duke of Milan
and the business about the camels was a bit obscure
the slow ones are left trailing behind so that the ants will occupy themselves with those while the men on the fast camels get away
I see the Persians impressing Herodotus, the eager listener, with the
fiendish cleverness of this scheme
If I were a young historian perhaps i would specialize in the reign of justinian and theodora----they built the Haghia Sophia
as well as having all that monkeybusiness and circus act stuff
it was a piece of the Roman Empire that lasted till, I dont know, 1200.
My cousin's father was chief of security in Leningrad during the Stalin purges and eventually he was executed and his wife and the two boys were sent to a camp---she was friends with a lot of poets and composers
(she knew Akhmatova) and eventually a composer who may have been her lover before she went to the Gulag, well he used influence and got the family out. And he is the oldest of the two boys and still alive and he has written a memoir about her and her friends and his childhood and that terrible time
and he gave me a draft and inside the front cover there was a Latin inscription----it epitomizes the aristocratic ideal in education, teach your son "To ride, to draw the bow, and tell the truth"
"Equitare, arcum tendere, veritatem dicere" or something like that, Self adjoint would know the precise latin.
Well, two days ago I was in Big sur and was reading herodotus and
where do you suppose that Latin motto comes from?
herodotus Book I, paragraph 138 I think. i dont have the book with me to check. And it was the way the persian nobles raised their sons. I think herodotus reports it in connection with cyrus.
So it must exist in Greek in the original and have been translated.
And a funny thing: Isaak Dinesen used it as an epigraph for "Out of Africa" so that it can be connected if you wish with your impressions of meryl Streep in Kenya around 1910. You see, Karen Blixen was a Danish aristocrat
and she would not let you forget it either. And she had a sense of style so she put the finest possible motto in her autobiographical memoir-----and old Slava our russian cousin stole it.
A lot of things I try to communicate I just dont manage to, partly because of laziness and leaving things out. Or because they are a bit idiosyncratic perhaps.
i like Isaak Dinesen stories. I like Babette's Feast
Aristocratic traditions are useful because they preserve ideals
including ideals of beauty
Once upon a time (this is a true story) there was a very wicked Duke of Milan---he cleverly deduced that the bolts would have to get the servants first if they were on top of him, so that if they were virtuous he was safe.I somehow missed this. That's so funny! :biggrin: His servants must have thought he was nuts.
I will respond to your last post tomorrow when I can think clearly.
I'm a bit discouraged---just dont have the gumption to go through procopius (even though I see the book as entertaining and shedding considerable light on the period)What would you like to read instead?
also I think nobody but me enjoys that anecdote about the duke of MilanI loved it. :biggrin:
and the business about the camels was a bit obscure
the slow ones are left trailing behind so that the ants will occupy themselves with those while the men on the fast camels get awayI'm a sucker for animals, I was hoping the slow camels got away. They got away...right? :frown: (hint: tell me they got away)
If I were a young historian perhaps i would specialize in the reign of justinian and theodora----they built the Haghia Sophia
as well as having all that monkeybusiness and circus act stuffThey are quite interesting, to say the least. The story about the geese, she was very young when she did this, correct?
My cousin's father was chief of security in Leningrad during the Stalin purges and eventually he was executed and his wife and the two boys were sent to a camp---she was friends with a lot of poets and composersWow marcus! That is so fascinating, I can't imagine living through something like that. I often wonder how people can hold up under that kind of stress.
i like Isaak Dinesen stories. I like Babette's Feast.I am not familiar with this.
Oh I forgot to say the slow camels got away too!
I would not put it down to her youth. Indeed as she aged she became ever more devastatingly beautiful and her parties at the palace ever more cunningly depraved.
It is my opinion that the business with the pet geese was something she didnt think of until she was in her forties!
Of course they were Greeks, which could account for a lot: as I am sure you know Helen of Troy's father was a swan
Can anyone help me find this in Herodotus
(My next door neighbor teaches in the linguistics dept and is very amusing and I was visiting for tea yesterday and she began talking about herodotus and she says this:)
it is known that in Africa the sun is very hot in the middle of the day
and so there is this race of men (the Egyptians tell me) with only one very large foot
they stand on one leg and walk around, I guess they hop, on one foot
and in the middle of the day they lie down on their backs
and put the leg straight up in the air
and shade themselves with their foot
and go to sleep for a while
--------------
Is this indeed in herodotus, and is it in the chapter with Egyptians giving the information. I dont remember seeing it. Can anyone give a page or paragraph reference?
---------------
and besides, did I offend everyone's sense of propriety or something?
there has been no thread business after i pointed out what I thought
was obvious about the Empress Theodora
selfAdjoint
Jul3-04, 03:38 PM
Herodotus is just full of supernatural things presented as simple fact. You don't have to go to Egypt; he has gods, oracles, and nymphs of full supernatural power interacting with Greek humans in Greece itself.
Gene Wolfe wrote an engaging set of fantasy novels about this; The first one is "Soldier in the Mist."
selfAdjoint
Jul3-04, 03:42 PM
Herodotus is just full of supernatural things presented as simple fact. You don't have to go to Egypt; he has gods, oracles, and nymphs of full supernatural power interacting with Greek humans in Greece itself.
Gene Wolfe wrote an engaging set of fantasy novels about this; The first one is "Soldier in the Mist."
AS for Theodora, she was the Liz Taylor of her day. I for one don't believe half the tabloidesque stories Procopius retails. They don't have to be original with him; just walking past a supermarket checkout counter will educate you in the human power to make up stories and impute them to celebrities.
Can anyone help me find this in Herodotus
(My next door neighbor teaches in the linguistics dept and is very amusing and I was visiting for tea yesterday and she began talking about herodotus and she says this:)
it is known that in Africa the sun is very hot in the middle of the day
and so there is this race of men (the Egyptians tell me) with only one very large foot
they stand on one leg and walk around, I guess they hop, on one foot
and in the middle of the day they lie down on their backs
and put the leg straight up in the air
and shade themselves with their foot
and go to sleep for a while
--------------
Is this indeed in herodotus, and is it in the chapter with Egyptians giving the information. I dont remember seeing it. Can anyone give a page or paragraph reference?I found it. It appears it was originally reported by Pliny The Elder.
"The construction of the "fantastic other" is reinforced in the work of Pliny the Elder (23-79 AD). In his Natural History, Pliny talks about how the outermost districts of Ethiopia produce such human monstrosities as tribes of people without noses, those who have no upper lip and others without tongues. In Book VII, ii, 21-24, Pliny cites Ctesias as the source of the story of a tribe of Indian men called the Monocoli who have only one leg, and who move in jumps with surprising speed; the same are called the Umbrella-foot tribe, because in hotter weather they lie on their backs on the ground and protect themselves with the shadow of their feet."
http://www.triangle.co.uk/pdf/viewpdf.asp?j=whr&vol=10&issue=2&year=2001&article=NiebrzydowskiWHRE10_2&id=144.160.98.31
That was great marcus! I'd never heard of that.
and besides, did I offend everyone's sense of propriety or something?
there has been no thread business after i pointed out what I thought
was obvious about the Empress TheodoraIt didn't bother me. I was enjoying reading about her exploits. I was waiting for you and Arildno to decide what we would read together. You both stopped posting so I thought you were too busy. :frown:
I'd love to get started again.
selfAdjoint, a person of considerable probity, suggests that the National Inquirer should have been called, instead, the National Herodotus
It is my passionate conviction, on the other hand, that nothing can touch the Procopian Theodora for scandal. I ador 'a
If some spirit medium wanted to make a lot of money she could
get in touch with Theodora and do a "True Confessions" theodora tells all
novelette. Now darling, let me tell you about the time I made love with a bear.
Let us all root for the Greeks to win the European football championship, since they are a people with much merit, altogether deserving honor.
I found it. It appears it was originally reported by Pliny The Elder.... In Book VII, ii, 21-24, Pliny cites Ctesiasas the source of the story of a tribe of Indian men called the Monocoli who have only one leg, and who move in jumps with surprising speed...
My nextdoor neighbor, a witty woman whom I admire almost to the point of philandery, does not know her Pliny as well as Evo.
Evo, you are keen for classical and medieval history, as I hope the others have noticed as well. If we persist in it we are all apt to learn something (most probably something we did not expect, too).
My nextdoor neighbor, a witty woman whom I admire almost to the point of philandery, does not know her Pliny as well as Evo.No, I'm just good with search engines.
No, I'm just good with search engines.
I will take that under consideration.
It is possible you are also good with search engines.
Can you find an original text, in translation, that recounts the Hindu
creation myth
Vishnu is asleep on a cobra floating on an infinite ocean
It is a big cobra so the cobra's head makes a wide comfortable bed for Vishnu to sleep on.
At some point in time a lotus grows out of his navel.
And Brahma sticks his head up out of the lotus and looks around
and decides to create the universe, just for fun.
Brahma creates the universe to delight Vishnu. I think that is a nice reason.
The two of them enjoy the universe for 50 billion years,
which in the Hindu system is called the "Day of Brahma" and also is a unit of time called a "kalpa"
After one kalpa (50 billion years) they uncreate the universe and Brahma climbs back into the lotus and the lotus flower closes and goes back into Vishnu's navel and Vishnu goes back to sleep.
He sleeps for one kalpa (50 billion years). this is called the "Night of Brahma".
Now, an intelligent person will naturally want to know if this is the first time this has happened. does this happen often? or is it just a one-time thing. And if it repeats are we in the first cycle, or what.
And the thoughtful Hindus have answers to these questions.
the Hindu cosmology, that I recounted here, is the only prescientific cosmology with the correct timescale, that I know of.
50 billion years is of the same order of magnitude as the 13.7 billion years that we have as the present age, and of things like the projected life of the sun, and the life of galaxies.
So the Hindu story is better than most in my humble opinion----I think time-perspective is sort of important. Also I like navels.
also I like that Brahma is so small, like a leprechaun, so small he can hide in a flower and it is this small sprite who creates the universe, not the big guy. And I approve highly of the motivation. He does it to give his friend pleasure.
I found this in the Encyclopedia Britannica. I would like an english version of the original
Can you find an original text, in translation, that recounts the Hindu creation mythThis is a hard one. Easy to find numerous references to the story, but nothing that looks close to an accurate original translation. I'm still searching.
I did find one reference to this being the ninth time the universe has been created, but there was no reference given that I could verify.
This is a hard one. Easy to find numerous references to the story, but nothing that looks close to an accurate original translation. I'm still searching.
I did find one reference to this being the ninth time the universe has been created, but there was no reference given that I could verify.
maybe i should take a turn
it is important that its always fun and never fatiguing
so if your initial search didnt turn anything up, i can take a try
BTW hats off for finding those original bigfoot people
I have never read any Pliny, just heard the name
BTW I just spoke to an Indian anthropologist woman
who says there are several Hindu creation myths
(this one she knows very well but she says there are others)
one involves an egg
but there is an even better one that says the universe
was churned into being by a turtle
just like when you churn cream it coagulates into butter
so that the butter comes into being by churning
well there was the infinite ocean again( that we saw before)
and there was no quarks and leptons in other words
no form or matter or anything, which the turtle felt was a deficiency
so churned and churned
and Existence coagulated like butter
and some say that a snake was involved too but I dont know how
this appeals to me because it seems very likely that leptons
are produced by churning, and possibly also quarks, and then
protons and neutrons are made by the quarks coallescing, just like
butter, and atoms and so on.
But I like the business with the lotus sprouting from his navel.
My friend has seen that represented in indian art at the Asian Art museum
in San Francisco, so we in some sense have a contemporary "document"
only it is sculptured bas relief and not a piece of writing
You say you found online paraphrases----could you give some links
and some say that a snake was involved too but I dont know howHere is one I found with the snake, actually a whole bunch of snakes.
The laksmi creation story starts with Brahma telling the Asuras and Devas to churn the ocean of milk. The Asuras and Devas were looking for soma, or immortallity. Anxious the two groups go and ask Ananta a serpent to turn Mt. Mandara into a ocean of milk. They then use another serpent to churn the ocean, Vasukii. After churning for some time they grew tired and bored, but then Vishnu comes and erges them not to quit. After some time a beautiful God appears, Laksmi. However this is not what they wanted so they kept churning the ocean until a black sludge appears. Then a thousand poisinous snakes come out of the sludge. The poison turns blue and Shiva comes and swollows this poison. Shiva holds this poison in his throught and the poison turns his throught blue. After Shiva purifies the ocean Dhanvantari appears. He is the physician of the gods and he holds the soma in a container called fillasha. This story goes on and on, but in the end the devas drink and become immortal.
http://www.msu.edu/user/murphy16/
this appeals to me because it seems very likely that leptons
are produced by churning, and possibly also quarks, and then
protons and neutrons are made by the quarks coallescing, just like
butter, and atoms and so on.You can be so funny. :biggrin:
You say you found online paraphrases----could you give some linksI found a bunch, but I only saved a few links.
Here are some that seemed to be good resources.
http://www.archaeolink.com/creation_myths_religious_anthrop.htm
http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~goertzel/creationmyths.htm
Here's one with the turtle.
http://www.ignca.nic.in/ps_05014.htm
Dear evo, I went looking for the Hindu myths of creation and
found that Hinduism is a dreadful mess
they need a good editor
it is a dismal task to find anything
at least in the old testament bible of the Israelites there is linear order
and one can find where the Genesis is because it comes at the beginning!
at least in the great book of the Westerners which is called
the encyclopedia Britannica there is alphabetical order
and one may look for navel under N and lotus under L
but in Hinduism there is no order, none of any kind!
It is quite slovenly and disreputable.
I did learn that the serpent on which Vishnu is sleeping is
called Sheshnaag
the lotus that grows from his navel has a special name too
but I forget what it is----perhaps it is Kamala or perhaps Padma
I think we just have to give up on Hindu creation myths, now i am sorry
I got you into such a difficult and unrewarding search in such a
bramble-patch
the thing is, they always want to sell you stuff.
they tell you summaries and they say yes yes it is all in the
Vishnu Purana translated by Horace H Wilson in 1865, or some
business like that, but it is not on line!
And one cannot be sure that is really is where they say because
of a certain vagueness that comes of too much sophisticated spirituality for too many centuries where they have been looking at all these things
as "symbolic" of contemplative states of mind and not taking them literally as stories in a hard-edge way and i say bleeegh and blaaaghhh to that.
the book of genesis is crisply told by comparison.
Maybe Salman Rushdie has retold these creation myths in good prose style. that would then be quite agreeable!
one has to really believe that the turtle really did churn the infinite ocean of milk
I am sure you agree, I am just saying it to make it revoltingly explicit, as is the custom :smile:
I was very surprised at how Hindu Myths were so inconsistent and no one seems to think it important to find an original authoritative source. This has been an interesting excersize, to say the least.
I have found that the only consistency is the inconsistency. :devil: Everything appears to have different names. The snake that Vishnu (who himself has 1,000 names)reposes on is called by many names, for example - Shesanaga, Shesha Nag, Sheshnaga, Ananta, Anantasesh, Sesha, etc...
In Hindu myth, nagas are a primeval race of divine serpent-people that play an important part in religion.
I have always been partial to the turtle story though. :smile:
I've also found the same sources for the translation of the Puranas. Nothing complete is available online.
I did find this tale which I thought you might enjoy.
Takshak : This king of Nagas was responsible for ending the life of king Pariksh it, the descendant of Pandavas. Pariksh it once insulted a great sage while he was engrossed in meditation. The sage's son cursed Pariksh it by saying that he will die of a snake bite. Pariksh it was so scared that he built his palace on a single pillar surrounded by water. He believed that he was safe as no snake could crawl through the water. Takshak had to take up the challenge to honour the sage's words. He shrunk his body and hid in an apple. When Pariksh it was about to eat the apple, he sprang out to his original shape and bit the king. The king's son, Janamejay, was so angry that he performed a huge snake sacrifice. His priests chanted powerful mantras which made all snakes fall into the sacrificial fire. Takshak sought Lord Indra's help. But the mantras were so powerful that both Takshak and Indra began to fall into the fire. Then Astik, a wise sage, intervened and stopped the sacrifice before all snakes were annihilated.
Also, a bit of background on the Naga Shesha.
Shesha: This enormous thousand-headed snake bears the earth on his head. Traditionally, it was believed that earthquakes were caused whenever the snake moved. Shesha floats on the cosmic ocean and Lord Vishnu reclines on the coil of his tail. This Naga survives even when the entire universe is destroyed. Hence, it is also called Ananta (eternal). Shesha accompanies Lord Vishnu in every incarnation.
Thus, when Vishnu appeared in his seventh incarnation as Rama, Shesha was born as his brother Lakshman. However, before their next incarnation, Shesha complained to Vishnu that he was tired of being his younger brother and always having to obey him. So Lord Vishnu suggested that he be his elder brother in their next incarnation so that Lord Vishnu will have to obey him. Thus Shesha was born as Balaram while Vishnu appeared as Krishna during their eighth incarnation.
http://festival.indiatimes.com/articleshow/-1669016349.cms
edit - too funny, the automatic online PF censor deleted the last part of the name p a r a k s h i t, so I had to divide the name. :rolleyes:
I've been enjoying your recent posts on Hindu legend a lot.
I could listen to some more of these stories
or, if you want to change
I would be interested if you would propose something we could
read (and give me the link so i can find it)
you some times say "you or Arildno pick something"
but you could take a turn
I've been enjoying your recent posts on Hindu legend a lot.
I could listen to some more of these stories
or, if you want to change
I would be interested if you would propose something we could
read (and give me the link so i can find it)
you some times say "you or Arildno pick something"
but you could take a turnI'd love to find something. You may be sorry though, I do have a very warped sense of what is interesting. :biggrin:
I'd love to find something. You may be sorry though, I do have a very warped sense of what is interesting. :biggrin:
I'll take a chance
warp away
I'm enjoying the sporadic booktalk so if you dont target some
passage or other soon (and give a link) I will eventually suggest something.
BTW you must have found a link for procopius and I would actually like to look at the same version----especially if it is not a long PDF download---as a refresher.
Ive forgotten many an outrageous chapter of the Secret History.
so give me the link you found, if you wish
were you ever in florence, if so you know San Miniato del Monte up on a hill across the Arno from the main part of the city
there is a nice story about when some medieval Germans stole the bones.
BTW you must have found a link for procopius and I would actually like to look at the same version----especially if it is not a long PDF download---as a refresher.
Ive forgotten many an outrageous chapter of the Secret History.
so give me the link you found, if you wishI will post that tomorrow. I'd love to discuss it with you.
I have been crying my eyes out watching the BBC/AE movies of "Lorna Doone" & "Pride & Prejudice" for the 100th time tonight. :cry: :approve: I love historic pieces.
My daughter will not watch the BBC/AE version of "Lorna Doone" since we watched the 1922 silent movie version of it together a couple of years ago. She prefers the 1922 version. :(
I've found watching movies of the classics with a teenager much easier than reading together. We can devote 2 hours of time with no problem. Sometimes she prefers to read the books.
Sorry, off topic, but that's what has been keeping me tied up.
were you ever in florence, if so you know San Miniato del Monte up on a hill across the Arno from the main part of the city
there is a nice story about when some medieval Germans stole the bones.I've been to Italy a few times, but never there. What is the story of the bones?
Jennifer Ehle, Colin firth, Crispin Bonham-Carter
and who ever did Mrs. Bennet was wonderful (and mr. bennet too)
but also the Emma thompson version of Sense and Sensibility
has some wonderful scenes and holds up very well
(Hugh Grant does a good job with one of the roles)
You indicated, I think, that you had never read Babette's'
feast, there is a Danish film made from Isaak Dinesen's story
of that name
I identify with several characters in the film of
Babette's feast----had better let you guess if you ever rent the
video of it, rather than say. It is available with the original soundtrack
and English subtitles which is probably better than dubbed into english
in this case as the actors have finely fitting voices to their roles.
Sorry, I have been too busy to read much the last few days. I have checked into Babette's feast and have read so many wonderful reviews of it that I plan to get it before the end of the month.
So marcus, you've seen the Pride & Prejudice with Colin Firth? I think he was splendid as Mr Darcy. I checked the credits on my DVD, but I cannot tell who Mr & Mrs Bennett were played by. The actress that played Mrs Bennett was superb.
Ok, let me do some reading and I will post again in a bit.
Ok, let me do some reading and I will post again in a bit.
sure, at your convenience and pleasure
Mrs. Bennet was played by Alison Steadman
here is a complete cast listing:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112130/
BTW I was highly entertained by Holly's Supper thread---though did not read all. and by some other PF threads, cant recall which right now.
I recently saw posted a link to the complete movie script for a movie I like called "As good as it gets"
http://www.allmoviescripts.com/scripts/10272177763f326892cd160.html
I was thinking about teenage daughters and how they acquire the habit of reading good literature. (you know my notion of "good" literature----paragons like Jane Austen, Snorri, Procopius, Isaak Dinesen, herodotus there must be some pattern here. some smilie is needed, but which, maybe the eye-rolling one:rolleyes:)
By the way did you like the English Patient?
I wonder if the movie script for it is on-line.
You see a teenager who loved the movie English Patient might have an easier time reading the movie script for it than the Michael Ondaatje novel.
Sometimes novels are a great bore. And with the script it meshes immediately with one's visual memory, and it is like reading a play.
I used to love to read plays when i was early teens.
Your reading with me (which I do enjoy) is obviously of less importance than reading with your daughter. Mother and daughter should be able to share certain novels or plays. what novels or plays do you both like?
I mean besides Pride and Prejudice?
the Emma thompson Sense and Sensibility is terrific----if anything better cinema than P and P.
well I will leave it there for the time being. post when you have time and feel like it
More people should know the poetry and stories of the european middleages
and in particular should know about Alfonso X, called the Wise (1221-1284)
he wrote his poems---the Cantigas---in Galician-Portuguese which was the language that all poets and troubadours preferred, in the iberian peninsula, at that time (except the Catalonians who are always different)
here is a link that tells about this and has further links to entertaining short poems in Galician Portuguese from the 1200s, translated into english by a clever translator named Zenith.
http://portugal.poetryinternational.org/cwolk/view/23086
Are you finished reading Heimskringla and stuff?
I somehow wanted to read more of this after I did some philosophy studying. I've got Heimkringla, younger and older Edda(in their' original language, unbelivably cool!), and some sagas eg Egil(the dude who went over to a guy when he was 5 to chop the other guys head off because he was insulting(It's quite early in the book.) :biggrin:
I would like to discuss Egil saga with you.
I believe he was an exceptional man which we should all admire and look up to.
Also one time at a feast there was a man that Egil didnt like so
he drank a lot of whey and went and stood by the man's chair and
puked on him for quite a long time.
the man was so shocked and outraged that he couldnt move to get
out of the way.
Egil had an unusually thick skull which was one reason he was so good in fights. They would always try to split each others skulls with an ax
because it was the most satisfying way to get the job done
but Egil's skull didn't split easily.
the saga of Egil is highly factual-----200 years after he lived they actually found his skull beside a church and it was in fact thick just as the story says---so there's proof if anyone is skeptical!
also the Egil Saga is a great literary masterpiece the equal of Njal Saga
but thankfully much much shorter!
we should all read it several times
Ah, the good old days! :biggrin:
I've got Egil, Gunnlaugs, Kormaks, and Lakdøla sagas on my shelf. Easily borrow more from the library if I wanted.
I also managed to read 1/3 of the Heimskringla once, but I were too young and it went too slow for me.
Ah, the good old days! :biggrin:
I've got Egil, Gunnlaugs, Kormaks, and Lakdøla sagas on my shelf. Easily borrow more from the library if I wanted.
I also managed to read 1/3 of the Heimskringla once, but I were too young and it went too slow for me.
When I looked back at heimskringla a few weeks ago I realized somewhat to my surprise that all the parts I like were in Olaf Trygvason Saga. So I would have to admit that the book is too long :frown:
I would be happy to look again at Egil
I have not handled the book for years and I know it has some good parts that I would like to read again. I just fetched my copy and will keep it by the computer in case you tell me about some part.
I have the Penguin Classics edition translated by Palsson and Edwards.
Do you think Egil is online?
Just to keep up with you---you mentioned the little argument Egil had over a ball-game when he was 6 years or so. In my edition that is chapter 40
and the interesting thing is that his father Skallagrim was not happy with what he did but his mother was glad and said "He has the makings of a Viking, when he is older you must give him a ship."
so then Egil (who was precocious as a poet) made up a verse
My mother wants a price paid
To buy my proud-oared ship.
Standing high in the stern
I'll scour for plunder...
-------------
pace, this is pretty good, even in English translation, and rings true for what we know of him and what he became. His verses were not as boring as many of his contemporaries.
Egil's Saga
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/egil/
I had started reading the Laxdaela Saga last month, but got too busy. Are either of you familiar with it? Is it worth the read. It's unusual because it is from a woman's perspective.
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/
Egil's Saga
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/egil/
I had started reading the Laxdaela Saga last month, but got too busy. Are either of you familiar with it? Is it worth the read. It's unusual because it is from a woman's perspective.
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/
No kidding! Tell a little about it. Is she the narrator or a major character or what
Evo I'd like to hear your perspective on the book.
Pretend you have to sell me on the idea of reading it.'
I already like the idea that it is about a icelander woman
I think the women were very important in shaping the mind of those
poeple and one reason that have good stories and'
so that is unusual. If what you say is right it is'
from a womans viewpoint abnd that is extemely interesting because
a way into her mind
but is it boring. a lot of old books are.
what has it got going for it. I want to hear this from you evo
and not have to look first myself
(appropriate smiley whatever that is)
Since I have only just begun to read it, I am going to cheat and piece together some information and reviews to entice you.
Laxdaela is an Icelandic saga that takes place in the years 850-1100. What makes Laxdaela saga different from other Icelandic sagas is that a woman plays the main role.
Originally written in Icelandic (Old Norse) sometime around the year 1245 A.D. The author is unknown, although some scholars contend that the author was probably a woman.
The LAXDAELA SAGA is one of the best of the sagas, ranking with THE BURNT NJAL SAGA as one of the greatest works to come from the Viking world -- and the greatest literary works of the 12th-14th centuries from anywhere. Its numerous cast of characters (I count 189 names in the book's helpful Glossary of Proper Names, about 40 of which begin with "Thor") boggles the mind. Just remember, these were real people, and their names are enshrined in the history of Iceland by their descendents.
It takes several generations of ambushes, conniving marriages and bloody divorces, and even the introduction of Christianity around A.D. 1000 before the main story gets under way, namely the story of Gudrun Osvifs-daughter and her four marriages. This is no blushing romance: Look at Gudrun the wrong way, and start drafting your will! Her boyfriend Kjartan Olafsson dallies too long in Norway, and she marries his cousin Bolli out of spite. Then, when he returns, she does everything she can to urge Bolli to kill him and his men. A series of internecine feuds breaks out, and it takes more than twenty years for the bad blood to be drained off.
Life was cheap in medieval Iceland. The anonymous author of this saga was, however, a great writer who identified closely with the people and events that went into the making of this sometimes barbaric, always awe-inspiring masterpiece.
Links to the above in order
http://www.fva.is/~harpa/forn/english/e_laxd/e_laxd.html
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140442189/104-9519226-
It takes several generations of ambushes, conniving marriages and bloody divorces, and even the introduction of Christianity around A.D. 1000 before the main story gets under way, namely the story of Gudrun Osvifs-daughter and her four marriages. This is no blushing romance: Look at Gudrun the wrong way, and start drafting your will! Her boyfriend Kjartan Olafsson dallies too long in Norway, and she marries his cousin Bolli out of spite. Then, when he returns, she does everything she can to urge Bolli to kill him and his men. A series of internecine feuds breaks out, and it takes more than twenty years for the bad blood to be drained off.
http://www.fva.is/~harpa/forn/english/e_laxd/e_laxd.html
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140442189/104-9519226-
this is good: ambushes, conniving marriages and bloody divorces,
the ABC of Icelandic life . This buildup carries conviction and persuades me to read the book.
nice style, regardless of whether you penned it or chose it to copy
I've enjoyed the little that I've read so far. I'd really like to know how Thorunn the Horned got her name. I love the descriptive names Thorolf "Bladder-skull" ?? I would enjoy just hearing the stories behind the names.
Evo by coincidence Pace and I were just talking about Egil Skallagrim's son who was an excellent poet even from a young age
and it turns out that Egil is a character in the Laxdale Saga
and he and his daughter appear in Chapter XXII----for it is Egil's daughter Thorgerd that Olaf Peacock marries around year 960. Here are Olaf and his father talking:
-----exerpts from Laxdale chapters 22 and 23-----
When Olaf had been in Iceland a month, and spring came on, father and son took counsel together. "I will, Olaf," said Hoskuld, "that a match should be sought for you,... There is a man named Egil. He is Skallagrim's son. He lives at Borg, in Borgarfjord. This Egil has a daughter who is called Thorgerd, and she is the woman I have made up my mind to woo on your behalf,...
...It is told how one day the father and son, Hoskuld and Olaf, went forth from their booth to find Egil. Egil greeted them well,... Hoskuld now broaches the wooing on behalf of Olaf, and asks for the hand of Thorgerd. She was also at the Thing. Egil took the matter well,...
...Hoskuld said, "I wish, Egil, that you would talk this over with your daughter."
Egil said that that should be done. Egil now went away to find his daughter, and they talked together: "There is here a man named Olaf, who is Hoskuld's son, and he is now one of the most renowned of men. Hoskuld, his father, has broached a wooing on behalf of Olaf, and has sued for your hand; and I have left that matter mostly for you to deal with. Now I want to know your answer. But it seems to me that it behoves you to give a good answer to such a matter, for this match is a noble one."
Thorgerd answered, "I have often heard you say that you love me best of all your children, but now it seems to me you make that a falsehood if you wish me to marry the son of a bondswoman, however goodly and great a dandy he may be,"...
...Hoskuld bade him have his own way. Olaf now dressed himself in this way, that he had on the scarlet clothes King Harald had given him, and a golden helmet on his head, and the gold-adorned sword in his hand that King Myrkjartan had given him. Then Hoskuld and Olaf went to Egil's booth. Hoskuld went first, and Olaf followed close on his heels. Egil greeted him well, and Hoskuld sat down by him, but Olaf stood up and looked about him. He saw a woman sitting on the dais in the booth, she was goodly and had the looks of one of high degree, and very well dressed. He thought to himself this must be Thorgerd, Egil's daughter. Olaf went up to the dais and sat down by her. Thorgerd greeted the man, and asked who he was. Olaf told his own and his father's name, and "You must think it very bold that the son of a slave should dare to sit down by you and presume to talk to you!"
She said, "You cannot but mean that you must be thinking you have done deeds of greater daring than that of talking to women."
Then they began to talk together, and they talked all day. But nobody heard their conversation....
-------end exerpt, chapters 22 and 23 of Laxdale---
So look a connection between Egil saga and Laxdale! these are real people and often real events and even some the actual things they said were thought interesting enough by our fellow humans, these Island people, to be remembered.
One small detail. the storyteller makes a point of telling us that "Egil greeted them well..." and "Egil took the matter well..." especially I think because Egil had a lot of attitude and was sometimes witty at the wrong moment. So the listeners, who know Egil's manners from other stories must be assured that this time everything went smoothly. Or so I think.
It might be interesting to browse through both these sagas and see if any other common characters or events show up
How wonderful that the two sagas overlap! That should help flesh out the stories. I will definitely add Egil's Saga to my reading.
The stories are so wild that it is hard to believe that they really happened (for the most part) and the people are real. I love immersing myself into these "other worlds". You had to have your wits about you back then.
I am thoroughly enjoying this. :approve:
that old translation from 1893 of Egil doesnt do it for me
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/egil/
it is by an English clergyman Rev. WC Greene or somebody like that
and his language is antique and not direct
I am glad of all the other links.
Maybe Evo you could find the Penguin Egil in the library?
It is one book that is worth owning in my view, but then tastes differ.
I just finished reading Chapter 71 about a dinnerparty Egil had at Armod's house.
there was a girl waiting table who made up a poem on the spur of the moment to persuade Egil to stop drinking at a certain point, but it didnt work (you see even waitresses made 8-line alliterative stanzas in those days or somehow in the story they managed to)
. then after he was totally drunk Egil made up a couple of stanzas himself.
a lot of other things happened that evening too, spoil it to explain.
the penguin translates the poems well----that 1890s clergyman doesnt always cut the mustard.
You'll see.
we must find Palsson and Edwards translation of Egil, or else Evo get hardcopy.
I looked and could not find Palsson/Edwards online but however found
a synopsis of the plot of Egil Saga written in 2003 by someone named
McKenny who uses the Palsson/Edwards and gives page references to it and exerpts from it.
this is the readers digest Egil:
http://www.geocities.com/solarguard/germanic/egil.html
the whole story in two pages by Michael McKenny
that old translation from 1893 of Egil doesnt do it for me
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/egil/
it is by an English clergyman Rev. WC Greene or somebody like that
and his language is antique and not directI had the same concerns, I almost didn't post that link. I have found that the translation can make or break a story. I will see what else is available.
I just finished reading Chapter 71 about a dinnerparty Egil had at Armod's house.
there was a girl waiting table who made up a poem on the spur of the moment to persuade Egil to stop drinking at a certain point, but it didnt work (you see even waitresses made 8-line alliterative stanzas in those days or somehow in the story they managed to)
. then after he was totally drunk Egil made up a couple of stanzas himself.I know, these people make me feel really unworthy. I seldom am able to break into prose that would be worthy of repeating. I do, however, constantly create songs at the drop of a hat, perhaps I am not so untalented after all? :wink:
a lot of other things happened that evening too, spoil it to explain.
the penguin translates the poems well----that 1890s clergyman doesnt always cut the mustard.
You'll see.
we must find Palsson and Edwards translation of Egil, or else Evo get hardcopy.I accept the challenge. Let me see what I can find.
BTW I looked in the penguin Egil for the same event
Olaf Peacock wooing Egil's daughter
and found it on page 201, chapter 78, of my edition.
In this case Laxdale gives more detail and Egil saga just the bare fact.
I I do, however, constantly create songs at the drop of a hat, .
this is a good thing to be able to do
when do we get some more comment on Egil?
Ok, I am back & will continue where we left off in my next post.
I loved what you wrote about your aunt, I wish you had left it.
marcus, I hope you don't mind, we had discussed other creation myths and I thought this was a cute one. It's from the Ainu people of Japan. There are a bunch of animal myths.
I can just picture the person eating the otter head. :bugeye:
I can delete it if you feel it's too off topic.
Ainu Legends
The Ainu believe that the world rests on the back of a giant trout, that otters caused human beings to be flawed, and that seeing an owl fly across the face of the moon at night is cause for great trepidation.
continued...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/legends.html
Trout
How the humble trout carries the world upon its back
"Before God made the world, there was nothing but swamp to be seen, in which, however, there dwelt a very large trout. This trout was indeed a mighty fish, for his body reached from one end of the swamp to the other. Now, when the Creator produced the Earth, He made this creature to become its foundation. There lies the living trout beneath the world, taking in and sending out the waters of the sea through his mouth. When he sucks the water in, the ebb of the tide takes place, but when he sends it out the tide flows"....
"The trout upon whose back the world is founded is the cause of tidal waves. Every now and again he takes in a vast quantity of water, and then with an extraordinary effort shoots it out of his mouth in one mighty blow of his breath. It is this which makes the tidal waves.
Continued…
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/legtro.html
Otter
Why it is responsible for man's imperfect nature, and why you should be careful about eating its head
"The otter's head must not lightly be used as an article of food, for unless people are very careful they will, if they eat it, become as forgetful as that creature. And hence it happens that when an otter has been killed the people do not usually eat the head.
"But if they are seized with a very strong desire for a feast of otter's head, they may partake thereof, providing proper precautions are taken. When eating it the people must take their swords, knives, axes, bows and arrows, tobacco boxes and pipes, trays, cups, garden tools, and everything they possess, tie them up in bundles with carrying slings, and sit with them attached to their heads while in the act of eating ... If this method be carefully adhered to, there will be no danger of forgetting where a thing has been placed, otherwise loss of memory will be the result."
whole article -
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/legott.html
"But if they are seized with a very strong desire for a feast of otter's head, they may partake thereof, providing proper precautions are taken. When eating it the people must take their swords, knives, axes, bows and arrows, tobacco boxes and pipes, trays, cups, garden tools, and everything they possess, tie them up in bundles with carrying slings, and sit with them attached to their heads while in the act of eating ... If this method be carefully adhered to, there will be no danger of forgetting where a thing has been placed, otherwise loss of memory will be the result."
whole article -
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/legott.html
I must have eaten the otter's head last week because I forgot about Heimsk. thread and just returned, find (to my considerable delight) these Ainu myths.
It reminds me of HUNDRED YEARS OF SOLITUDE the episode of insomnia which the whole town of Macondo got
and they were enjoying it a lot, finding congenial ways to pass the sleepless nights, and never getting tired or sleepy but just evermore alert to the present
but then the past and future faded, along with memory and purpose, and they found they had to start tying labels on all their implements to remind them of what they were for. and a label tied to the cow to remind them to milk it
I hope you and your daughter are well and are finding books you can both enjoy reading, or films. lonliness across generations--and discontinuity of the cultural things one loves---are the most severe divides and probably the reason why everyone wishes so hard to have grandchildren---because with them at least one hopes to be able to share what are the deepest satisfactions in life, like kiteflying and hot chocolate.
hypnagogue
Sep5-05, 10:26 PM
bump........
I was re-reading this thread earlier tonight, glad you thought to move it here. I assume you are the busy history fairy here? :biggrin:
Oh, I had totally forgotten about this thread.
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