View Full Version : Can I call myself a physicist yet?
flatmaster
Jun9-09, 06:07 PM
I have my BS in Physics with a chem minor. I've done two years of gradschool at UAH. I'll be back to classes in the fall at UAB Huntsville. At Auburn, I was awarded TA of the year from the dept. So how about it? Can I call myself a physicist?
You can call yourself modest.
Sarcasm aside, do you do physics for a living?
Pengwuino
Jun9-09, 06:11 PM
Someone told me you can only call yourself a physicist when you have your PHD. Then of course there's a professor of mine who said we could call ourselves physicists when we were taking upper division physics courses. Who knows. If you're still in school, you're a student, that's for sure. If you're unemployed, you're a bum. If you work as a physicist, I guess you shoudl call yourself a physicist!
Someone told me you can only call yourself a physicist when you have your PHD. Then of course there's a professor of mine who said we could call ourselves physicists when we were taking upper division physics courses. Who knows. If you're still in school, you're a student, that's for sure. If you're unemployed, you're a bum. If you work as a physicist, I guess you shoudl call yourself a physicist!
You should not even be allowed into a physics classroom, let alone calling yourself a physicist.
Pengwuino
Jun9-09, 06:15 PM
You should not even be allowed into a physics classroom, let alone calling yourself a physicist.
I hate you.
That professor also said to get a PHD so you can say 'Dr.' when you're making a table reservation at a restaurant. It sounds very cool.
flatmaster
Jun9-09, 06:20 PM
If you're unemployed, you're a bum.
Under this definition, I'm a bum. However bum and physicist and not orthogonal.
I hate you.
That professor also said to get a PHD so you can say 'Dr.' when you're making a table reservation at a restaurant. It sounds very cool.
If I had a PhD, I'd tell people to call me Cyrus. The title isnt to impress people working at restaurants.
Chi Meson
Jun9-09, 07:45 PM
You said "orthogonal."
You physicist, you.
flatmaster
Jun9-09, 07:49 PM
ok.. I think I'm a physiscist
yeah, I don't know.. my prophessors and colleagues think I'm way good at physics, but seriously I'll give myself 80% [though, I used to be on top of my class], right now I'm a research assistant, and applying for a job at my local university [teaching assistant], I’m expecting to start after summer, but I wouldn’t call myself a physicist unless I invent something really rocks the world…high expectations :biggrin:
yeah, I don't know.. my prophessors and colleagues think I'm way good at physics, but seriously I'll give myself 80% [though, I used to be on top of my class], right now I'm a research assistant, and applying for a job at my local university [teaching assistant], I’m expecting to start after summer, but I wouldn’t call myself a physicist unless I invent something really rocks the world…high expectations :biggrin:
It's spelled professors. Why would you go from an RA to a TA? That's a step down, not up.
It's spelled professors. Why would you go from an RA to a TA? That's a step down, not up.
thanks for the correction, I don’t know how things work where you live, but here I have to go though all steps if I want to major in physics as an assisted professor, you see I didn’t teach after graduation, but I start my master study after 2 yrs [thanks to my GPA and professors recommendations] while I’m still studying master my advisor took me on as a research assistant [that’s temporarily on a couple of researches], got it!
thanks for the correction, I don’t know how things work where you live, but here I have to go though all steps if I want to major in physics as an assisted professor, you see I didn’t teach after graduation, but I start my master study after 2 yrs [thanks to my GPA and professors recommendations] while I’m still studying master my advisor took me on as a research assistant [that’s temporarily on a couple of researches], got it!
What is an 'assisted professor': are you trying to become a professor? I think I understand about 60% of what you write.
What is an 'assisted professor': are you trying to become a professor? I think I understand about 60% of what you write.
that's enough for you:wink: you can't handle more than that!
that's enough for you:wink: you can't handle more than that!
FYI: I generally don't like it when people I don't know post responses to me as if I were a close buddy. I don't know you that well.
FYI: I generally don't like it when people I don't know post responses to me as if I were a close buddy. I don't know you that well.
lick your elbow! * you are way far from being a close buddy
* [just in case you asks cause I don’t wanna post replies again] it’s a saying I learned, it means if you could lick your elbow then what you think is possible, but it isn't
physics girl phd
Jun9-09, 09:32 PM
I have my Ph.D. in physics and my job title contains the word "physics", but I still cringe when my husband says I'm a physicist. I just teach physics at a university. I guess I'd only think of myself as a physicist if I was employed at a national lab and was classified as a full time research physicist under some gs grade... or something similar. Since that's not the case, I think I'd be doing hack job if one thought of me as a "physicist".
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 09:48 PM
It depends entirely how you look at it. The first definition in Websters is "a specialist in physics". In a room full of post-docs doing fundamental research, "specialist" means one thing, but for the average person, including the majority of working non-scientific professionals, it means something else entirely.
When I finished college with a BS in Physics, I began doing industrial designs that required that I have general liability and professional errors and omissions insurance. Some kind of title was required for me that was representitive but not misleading. "Graduate Physicist" was finally the language chosen.
It depends entirely how you look at it. The first definition in Websters is "a specialist in physics". In a room full of post-docs doing fundamental research, "specialist" means one thing, but for the average person, including the majority of working non-scientific professionals, it means something else entirely.
When I finished college with a BS in Physics, I began doing industrial designs that required insurance. Some kind of title was required for me that was representitive but not misleading. Graduate physicist was finally the language chosen.
"Design Engineer"
Anyways, it doesn't matter because I think the thread is self serving and pointless. Why not just make a thread that says I got an award as being a TA, everyone clap for me. I honestly see no other point to this thread than that.
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 09:58 PM
"Design Engineer"
I studied physics, not engineering. They knew what I was doing.
I have my Ph.D. in physics and my job title contains the word "physics", but I still cringe when my husband says I'm a physicist. I just teach physics at a university. I guess I'd only think of myself as a physicist if I was employed at a national lab and was classified as a full time research physicist under some gs grade... or something similar. Since that's not the case, I think I'd be doing hack job if one thought of me as a "physicist".Though I started on that track, I never ended up getting a degree in Chemical Engineering. A few years later, when I found myself working as a process chemist in a $$$$$ pulp mill, I had no problem saying "chemist" when people asked what I did. When fractional percentages of improvements in the efficiency of that mill could pay my salary for years (even decades) I felt no compunction in claiming the title. I beat out a newly-minted CE for my position though I had no degree, and we became close friends after his hire a year later.
lick your elbow! * you are way far from being a close buddy
* [just in case you asks cause I don’t wanna post replies again] it’s a saying I learned, it means if you could lick your elbow then what you think is possible, but it isn't
Then why do you pm me and respond to my posts as if we are? It's out of place. Again, I don't understand half of what you're saying.
I studied physics, not engineering. They knew what I was doing.
I know you studied physics, but you weren't hired to do physics, were you?
My point is that physicists are hired to do physics.
A physicist can be hired to do something thats non related to physics, but at that point your no longer a physicist.
Though I started on that track, I never ended up getting a degree in Chemical Engineering. A few years later, when I found myself working as a process chemist in a $$$$$ pulp mill, I had no problem saying "chemist" when people asked what I did. When fractional percentages of improvements in the efficiency of that mill could pay my salary for years (even decades) I felt no compunction in claiming the title. I beat out a newly-minted CE for my position though I had no degree, and we became close friends after his hire a year later.
That's because you were actually doing what a chemist does.
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 10:17 PM
I know you studied physics, but you weren't hired to do physics, were you?
I was being paid to use what I had learned. Also, this [my first application for insurance] was for a project funded by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities. I was self-employed.
My point is that physicists are hired to do physics.
What is "doing physics"? I use the physics that I studied every day. If you mean research, then that would be a research physicist.
A physicist can be hired to do something thats non related to physics, but at that point your no longer a physicist.
I was being asked what qualifies me to do the work I was insuring. The real answer is that I can figure out what I need to know because, and only because of my physics degree.
Then why do you pm me and respond to my posts as if we are? It's out of place. Again, I don't understand half of what you're saying.
urrrrrrrrrrrgh... you really wanna piss me off
when did I do that! are you drunk!
what! the post about the other thread days ago! was 1 post and I asks you NOT to reply to it!
and hey, you are not embarrassing me
if you mean it, why don't you ignore my posts and quit being picky about it!!
Pengwuino
Jun9-09, 10:23 PM
I know you studied physics, but you weren't hired to do physics, were you?
My point is that physicists are hired to do physics.
A physicist can be hired to do something thats non related to physics, but at that point your no longer a physicist.
Everything has its root in physics :rofl: So you can say it!
Then again does that mean anyone doing any scientific/engineering job can say they're a physicist... hmmmm, i dont like where this is going.
Point is, get a job with "physicist" in the title just to be on the safe side.
Everything has its root in physics :rofl: So you can say it!
Then again does that mean anyone doing any scientific/engineering job can say they're a physicist... hmmmm, i dont like where this is going.
Point is, get a job with "physicist" in the title just to be on the safe side.
True...my secretary's job is rooted in physics, after all!
I have a lowly little BS in physics, currently employed to to chemistry (long story). I definately don't think of myself as a physicist.
But I have always been under the impression that to be called a physicist, you need a PhD and several years of research and publishing. Very different from an engineer, a chemist, a nurse, or a forester.
Getting a BS in physics is not like training for a vocation.
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 10:33 PM
Everything has its root in physics :rofl: So you can say it!
Then again does that mean anyone doing any scientific/engineering job can say they're a physicist... hmmmm, i dont like where this is going..
No, because they didn't specialize in physics. Duh!
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 10:35 PM
I think you are all missing the point. There are times when one is asked for a title related to one's education. You have to say something. How you wish to define the meaning of "specialist" from there is arbitrary.
Also, there is a difference between a physics grad and an engineering grad. In fact I learned how to capitalize it.
Pengwuino
Jun9-09, 10:45 PM
Whenever I think of someones title, it's always their work title as opposed to their education come to think of it. This is actually quite a head scratcher. If you wind up as an ice cream man and got your phd in physics, can you really call yourself a physicist? :rofl: On the other hand, what if you've been doing physics-related work for 20 years then decide to change careers to being a food preparer, is it fair that you can no longer call yourself a physicist? I don't see anything wrong with "I'm a physicist currently flipping burgers" :rofl:
One thing I and actually a couple of friends of mine have wondered is if you stick with the title of "physicist" being someone with a phd and experience and such.... what do you call someone with just a BS or MS? We can't be engineers because we certainly have no formal engineering training....
You right. very right!
without a copy of certificate, it mean nothing to prove quality!
I think you are all missing the point. There are times when one is asked for a title related to one's education. You have to say something. How you wish to define the meaning of "specialist" from there is arbitrary.
But if one isn't actively involved in doing physics then there seems to almost always be a title that's more descriptive than "physicist".
Physics girl phd could say shes a Physics Professor
flatmaster could say he's a student [of physics]
It seems that physicist would became an overly vague term if it could mean anything from a student to an engineer.
Whenever I think of someones title, it's always their work title as opposed to their education come to think of it. This is actually quite a head scratcher. If you wind up as an ice cream man and got your phd in physics, can you really call yourself a physicist? :rofl: On the other hand, what if you've been doing physics-related work for 20 years then decide to change careers to being a food preparer, is it fair that you can no longer call yourself a physicist? I don't see anything wrong with "I'm a physicist currently flipping burgers" :rofl:
One thing I and actually a couple of friends of mine have wondered is if you stick with the title of "physicist" being someone with a phd and experience and such.... what do you call someone with just a BS or MS? We can't be engineers because we certainly have no formal engineering training....
To complicate things even more, the job title is usually a committee decision (or worse, an HR committe decision :rolleyes:). I'm a Research Technologist...what the heck is that?!? In my field, it means a scientist who primarily works in the lab...a hands-on scientist. But no one knows that....it sounds like a made-up title!
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 11:12 PM
Tell me this: Are all engineers the same? Do all engineers bring the same knowledge and skills to the table?
What is "doing physics"? I use the physics that I studied every day. If you mean research, then that would be a research physicist.
If you are making something for a customer, you've entered the world of engineering. Even if your degree is in physics, you're an engineer.
I was being asked what qualifies me to do the work I was insuring. The real answer is that I can figure out what I need to know because, and only because of my physics degree.
Doing insurance work doesnt make you a physicist. You're an insurance guy with a physics degree. The same way I'm an Aerospace engineer with a Mechanical Degree.
Then again does that mean anyone doing any scientific/engineering job can say they're a physicist
That's a stupid question. Clearly, a biologist doing science isn't a physicist. So not "any one doing a scientific/engineering job can say they're a physicist". You bird brain.
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 11:18 PM
If you are making something for a customer, you've entered the world of engineering. Even if your degree is in physics, you're an engineer.
In no way could I claim to be an engineer. I don't have an engineering degree. I was claiming that I was capable of doing engineering.
Doing insurance work doesnt make you a physcist. You're an insurance guy with a physics degree. The same way I'm an Aerospace engineer with a Mechanical Degree.
That isn't what I said. My insurance agent told me that he needed a title in order to file the application in which I was claiming to be capable of doing electrical engineering work.
Tell me this: Are all engineers the same? Do all engineers bring the same knowledge and skills to the table?
Well, that's why they insert the word (Aero, Mech, Bio, Civil, Chem) infront of the word engineer.
//:phoenix:\\
Jun9-09, 11:26 PM
I seriously doubt the OP has a BA in physics and minor in chemistry. He seems more like someone who has just started out in physics and thinks it is a nice name to call oneself. "Well I am a physicist!" If you study physics and are pursuing it for a career, you are a student of physics, when you obtain a degree in the field and work as physicist, you are a physicist. I don't think he has a BA because of the latter. Just my opinion though...
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 11:27 PM
Well, that's why they insert the word (Aero, Mech, Bio, Civil, Chem) infront of the word engineer.
What do physics students study?
In no way could I claim to be an engineer. I don't have an engineering degree. I was claiming that I was capable of doing engineering.
That isn't what I said. My insurance agent told me that he needed a title in order to file the application in which I was claiming to be capable of doing electrical engineering work.
Why couldn't you claim to be an engineer? You were hired to do engineering work, right?
What do physics students study?
You have a BS in physics, i'm sure you're well aware of what they study. Physicists, by definition, search for the fundamental mechanisms by how things work. Engineers use those mechanism to make things and further technology.
Engineers make a product.
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 11:29 PM
By the way, as a finer point of law, I could be sued for legally calling myself an engineer. However, I am completely legal and insured to do engineering given that I am careful about the jobs I take. I can't design a bridge, but I can design for concept testing and various types of industrial applications.
By the way, as a finer point of law, I could be sued for legally calling myself an engineer. However, I am completely legal and insured to do engineering.
Why can you be sued for calling yourself an engineer? What law, specifically says that.
//:phoenix:\\
Jun9-09, 11:32 PM
If you don't have a degree in engineering and can be sued because of it you merely have the knowledge of an engineer, not the credentials that would make you an engineer. You aren't an engineer but rather someone with knowledge of engineering. Just because a 1 year old baby can add 1 + 1 and know that it equals 2, doesn't make that baby a mathematician. In order to be a mathematician you have to study mathematics and earn the credentials to call yourself a mathematician.
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 11:35 PM
You have a BS in physics, i'm sure you're well aware of what they study. Physicists, by definition, search for the fundamental mechanisms by how things work. Engineers use those mechanism to make things and further technology.
Engineers make a product.
Do you assume that a physics graduate does not lay claim to knowledge specific to physics graduates? Do you think that all engineers gets as much physics as a physics grad?
Do you assume that a physics graduate does not lay claim to knowledge specific to physics graduates? Do you think that all engineers gets as much physics as a physics grad?
What?.........
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 11:38 PM
If you don't have a degree in engineering and can be sued because of it you merely have the knowledge of an engineer, not the credentials that would make you an engineer. You aren't an engineer but rather someone with knowledge of engineering. Just because a 1 year old baby can add 1 + 1 and know that it equals 2, doesn't make that baby a mathematician. In order to be a mathematician you have to study mathematics and earn the credentials to call yourself a mathematician.
Well, I've had my own company for 11 years and I do all sorts of engineering. In fact, my career was made by solving problems that stumped the band.
If you don't have a degree in engineering and can be sued because of it you merely have the knowledge of an engineer, not the credentials that would make you an engineer. You aren't an engineer but rather someone with knowledge of engineering. Just because a 1 year old baby can add 1 + 1 and know that it equals 2, doesn't make that baby a mathematician. In order to be a mathematician you have to study mathematics and earn the credentials to call yourself a mathematician.
I don't understand the point of this post.
Ivan Seeking
Jun9-09, 11:40 PM
What?.........
What didn't you understand?
JaredJames
Jun9-09, 11:41 PM
Tell me this: Are all engineers the same? Do all engineers bring the same knowledge and skills to the table?
Certainly not! I am studying for a BEng (Hons) in Aerospace Engineering. I am taught 50% of my course in classes with only other aero students, and the other 50% (mainly the pure maths/stats stuff) with the mechanical engineers. However there is also the civil engineers who are educated completely seperate from us, plus there are the Bio and Chemical engineers who are trained in a whole other section of the uni and nothing what so ever related to us (I've never even met one).
I personally conside myself a Student Aerospace Engineer, and when I start my placement next month I will be classed as a Student Aerospace Engineer which, if successful and offered a full time job after completing my studies, I would still be an Aerospace Engineer, but the job title would be Project Engineer. To me, it's simply a matter of what I want to call it when someone asks me what I do, I prefer Aerospace Engineer as it is more specific to what I am/will be trained to do. Although based on any experience and future work, I may change this to a more suited title. From what I have read, the title of Project Engineer simply means you are experienced enough to work on projects by yourself (without supervision) and has absolutely no bearing on what you are actually qualified in (hence me preferring aerospace engineer.
//:phoenix:\\
Jun9-09, 11:42 PM
I don't understand the point of this post.
I was replying to the thread and Ivan. Simply knowing engineering doesn't make you an engineer. You have to have the knowledge added with the necessary degree.
But, isn't there some type of philosophy that opposes what I said in the aforementioned? I think I read something about it a while back.
What didn't you understand?
Your post.
Simply knowing engineering doesn't make you an engineer. You have to have the knowledge added with the necessary degree.
That is a nonsensical statement.
//:phoenix:\\
Jun9-09, 11:43 PM
Well, I've had my own company for 11 years and I do all sorts of engineering. In fact, my career was made by solving problems that stumped the band.
Don't you need a degree also as you stated you could get sued?
That nonsensical statement.
What made it nonsensical?
junglebeast
Jun9-09, 11:44 PM
You are all over-complicating this.
According to Wikipedia, "A physicist is a scientist who studies or practices physics", and "A scientist, in the broadest sense, refers to any person that engages in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge".
According to Dictionary.com,
A physicist is "a scientist who specializes in physics," a Scientist is "A person having expert knowledge of one or more sciences, especially a natural or physical science," and a specialist is "One who is devoted to a particular occupation or branch of study or research."
According to Merriem-Webster, a scientist is "a specialist in physics," and a specialist is "one who concentrates their efforts on a particular occupation, practice, or branch of learning."
Clearly, to be a physicist according to these sources, you don't need a PhD, you don't need to work for a government lab, you only need to be someone who is currently devoted and has a current expertise, in physics.
So there you have it, fartmaster...you can call yourself a physicist.
JaredJames
Jun9-09, 11:45 PM
Just out of curiosity, when people here think of physics are you thinking quantum mechanics and such or are you thinking more along the lines of A level (high school) physics? Because physics in the A level sense had a lot of mechanics in them and as such are very applicable to engineering, whereas a physics degree won't be quite so engineering involved.
Don't you need a degree also as you stated you could get sued?
What made it nonsensical?
Go back and reread what you wrote. You contradicted yourself.
You don't need a degree in engineering to do engineering work. No one is going to sue you. This is all nonsense.
For the last time, you need *in some cases* an engineering degree, if you want to do work that requires a licensed engineer to sign off on something. That's it.
JaredJames
Jun9-09, 11:47 PM
You don't need a degree to be an engineer, a degree simply gives you a piece of paper that proves you have the knowledge as opposed to not having one where an employer would have to take your word for it. I have met many non-degree engineers who know a hell of a lot more than some graduates.
//:phoenix:\\
Jun9-09, 11:48 PM
I see where you might "think" contradiction is elicited.
You don't need a degree to be an engineer, a degree simply gives you a piece of paper that proves you have the knowledge as opposed to not having one where an employer would have to take your word for it. I have met many non-degree engineers who know a hell of a lot more than some graduates.
I see graduates earning more money than the ones without any degree. I also see a lot more graduates in the field than non-graduates.
JaredJames
Jun9-09, 11:49 PM
For the last time, you need *in some cases* an engineering degree, if you want to do work that requires a licensed engineer to sign off on something. That's it.
Cyrus is right here. If you are to become chartered you need a degree. To prove you hold the knowledge required.
I see where you might "think" contradiction is elicited.
I dont "think" you contradicted yoursef, you did contradict yourself.
Simply knowing engineering doesn't make you an engineer. You have to have the knowledge added with the necessary degree.
Is a blatant contradiction. How can you have 'added' knowledge with a degree, if you already KNOW engineering? The first sentence implies that you WONT get "added" anything with an engineering degree.
I see graduates earning more money than the ones without any degree. I also see a lot more graduates in the field than non-graduates.
....and?
JaredJames
Jun9-09, 11:52 PM
Who mentioned pay? As a graduate aero engineer I am looking at an average wage of £25000PA. Now, I know a number of non-degree level engineers earning 40K plus.
JaredJames
Jun9-09, 11:55 PM
Cyrus, you say you know engineering. Could I just ask how much experience you have with it and what level of knowledge you would consider yourself to have.
//:phoenix:\\
Jun9-09, 11:56 PM
Knowing engineering doesn't make you an engineer correct? What makes you an engineer is the degree proving your claim. Hey! I am a physicist, biologist, engineer, mathematician, botanist, neurological surgeon, and radiologist. Prove it? No, no, no, just take my word on it. I will just use google to complete any task necessary. The only reason you saw it as contradiction was because I lacked clarity and ample explanation.
....and?
I was simply replying to a post.
Cyrus, you say you know engineering. Could I just ask how much experience you have with it and what level of knowledge you would consider yourself to have.
I have a BS in Mechanical, working on an MS in aero, and do work for two small private companies in the Aerospace Industry and NASA.
What experience do you have?
Knowing engineering doesn't make you an engineer correct? What makes you an engineer is the degree proving your claim. Hey! I am a physicist, biologist, engineer, mathematician, botanist, neurological surgeon, and radiologist. Prove it? No, no, no, just take my word on it. I will just use google to complete any task necessary. The only reason you saw it as contradiction was because I lacked clarity and ample explanation.
I was simply replying to a post.
I'm not sure what the point of this post was.................it's absurd.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:02 AM
I'm a student of Aerospace Engineering BEng (Hons) at Kingston Uni London. I was just asking as from a previous post you made I didn't think you had a degree from the context of it. But was going to make the point that a person who has worked in the engineering industry without a degree for a number of years, is going to be more of an engineer than myself.
Now I don't and won't consider myself an engineer until graduation. Do you consider yourself an engineer? or do you have another title?
I'm actually very impressed with what you have put there. Sounds like a very interesting job you have. Hope I can go the same way.
I'm a student of Aerospace Engineering BEng (Hons) at Kingston Uni London. I was just asking as from a previous post you made I didn't think you had a degree from the context of it. But was going to make the point that a person who has worked in the engineering industry without a degree for a number of years, is going to be more of an engineer than myself.
Now I don't and won't consider myself an engineer until graduation. Do you consider yourself an engineer? or do you have another title?
Sorry, I didn't mean to ask you if you were an engineer. I mixed you up with //:phoenix:\\. (You had already said you studied Aero earlier).
//:phoenix:\\
Jun10-09, 12:04 AM
What makes you an engineer is the degree. That is what I have been saying for the past couple of posts. You don't have a degree, then you are not an engineer.
What makes you an engineer is the degree. That is what I have been saying for the past couple of posts.
This is wrong. I've already said a several times now exactly *when* you need an official engineering degree.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:08 AM
Pheonix, tell me something, when the engineer comes round to your house to fix your boiler do you believe they have a degree? They don't!
//:phoenix:\\
Jun10-09, 12:08 AM
Actually, it is right. Why do people study to become engineers? That question is all I need to refute your claim saying I am wrong. Either come up with an effective counter-argument instead of, "you're wrong," and, "that is absurd and nonsensical," or stop replying. I have yet to see anything substantiating your claim of makes a person an engineer.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:09 AM
Pheonix, are you an engineer?
JasonRox
Jun10-09, 12:09 AM
This is wrong. I've already said a several times now exactly *when* you need an official engineering degree.
In Canada, you need a professional licence. No professional licence and you're aren't an engineer. Done.
Do they have that in the US?
Actually, it is right. Why do people study to become engineers?
I can't speak for why other people become engineers.
That question is all I need to refute your claim saying I am wrong. Either come up with an effective counter-argument instead of, "you're wrong," and, "that is absurd and nonsensical," or stop replying. I have yet to see anything substantiating your claim of makes a person an engineer.
........I'm talking to a wall.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:13 AM
Pheonix, people study for an engineering degree because the course gives a comprehensive understanding in engineering principles (e.g. maths, structural mechanics) and some business features (project management etc.). In my first year I learnt about mixing concrete what possible use could I have for that in aerospace engineering?
Are you saying a person who has not followed a degree course, but has aquired the equivelant knowledge perhaps through practical experience which immediately elevates them above a graduate with no experience, is not an engineer?
Those two are equal, only one has a piece of paper saying they finished a course.
Pheonix once again are you an engineer?
//:phoenix:\\
Jun10-09, 12:14 AM
........I'm talking to a wall.
Likewise...
Pheonix, are you an engineer?
I m studying to become one but I am clearly not an engineer. Once I have a degree I will be as that proves that I have acquired the knowledge.
Are you saying a person who has not followed a degree course, but has aquired the equivelant knowledge perhaps through practical experience which immediately elevates them above a graduate with no experience, is not an engineer?
I won't answer this hypothetical question.
In Canada, you need a professional licence. No professional licence and you're aren't an engineer. Done.
Do they have that in the US?
There are different classifications of engineers in the US, in order of *legal* responsibility:
Unlicensed
Engineer in Training
Professional Engineer
They can all do engineering work, but if anything requires signing only the PE can sign off on it.
That's why a PE gets paid more money (money as good as or more than a PhD), because even a PhD cannot sign off on things unless they also get a PE.
Can I call myself a doctor?
I think I am call myself physicist, Phd, biologist, .. without getting into any trouble
Can I call myself a doctor?
I think I am call myself physicist, Phd, biologist, .. without getting into any trouble
You make good posts from time to time, knock yourself out, Dr.
JasonRox
Jun10-09, 12:17 AM
There are different classifications of engineers in the US, in order of *legal* responsibility:
Unlicensed
Engineer in Training
Professional Engineer
They can all do engineering work, but if anything requires signing only the PE can sign off on it.
That's why a PE gets paid more money (money as good as or more than a PhD), because even a PhD cannot sign off on things unless they also get a PE.
So if I score an Engineering related job, can I call myself an Engineer? (B. Sc. Mathematics)
Are you going by the title of the job only?
Just curious.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:18 AM
It isn't hypothetical, it happens. Before aircraft, there were only mechanical engineers and so aerospace engineers were only described as such based on the knowledge gained from research in the field, not from a degree.
They can all do engineering work
No, I don't think they can do all kind of engineering work. You need to have an experience i.e. a fresh graduate cannot go and design a complex system. There is a rational behind coming up with that PE.
I didn't reply in the other thread IIRC.. so replying to that too here
//:phoenix:\\
Jun10-09, 12:19 AM
This place has turned crazy. I am an astrobiologist and tomorrow I'll be a psychotherapist and clinically diagnose this place with a mild delusional disorder.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:20 AM
[QUOTE=rootX;2231149]No, I don't think they can do all kind of engineering work. You need to have an experience i.e. a fresh graduate cannot go and design a complex system. There is a rational behind coming up with that PE.
Cyrus didnt say all kinds of engineering, just that they can all do engineering work.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:21 AM
Pheonix, if you had a good knowledge of astrobiology then yes you could call yourself one.
So if I score an Engineering related job, can I call myself an Engineer? (B. Sc. Mathematics)
Are you going by the title of the job only?
Just curious.
Sure, you are being paid to do engineering work. You are actually *doing* engineering work. Thats what the very definition of being an engineer means. Someone who is trained to DO engineering work. Not STUDY engineering work, DO engineering work.
You can say: "Hi, I'm Jason and I'm an engineer!"
Me: "Whats your degree in?"
You: "My formal training was in mathematics"
Me: "Are you licensed?"
You: "No"
This place has turned crazy. I am an astrobiologist and tomorrow I'll be a psychotherapist and clinically diagnose this place with a mild delusional disorder.
Could you please, stop posting this kind of stuff. It's tiring and old and serves no purpose.
JasonRox
Jun10-09, 12:24 AM
Sure, you are being paid to do engineering work. You are actually *doing* engineering work. Thats what the very definition of being an engineer means. Someone who is trained to DO engineering work. Not STUDY engineering work, DO engineering work.
You can say: "Hi, I'm Jason and I'm an engineer!"
Me: "Whats your degree in?"
You: "My formal training was in mathematics"
Me: "Are you licensed?"
You: "No"
Just curious.
I wouldn't want people saying they are Mathematicians merely because they study mathematics. That would bother me. I met many dumb students studying mathematics... of course, most don't graduate.
//:phoenix:\\
Jun10-09, 12:24 AM
The good ol' profane use of language on the forums.
It isn't hypothetical, it happens. Before aircraft, there were only mechanical engineers and so aerospace engineers were only described as such based on the knowledge gained from research in the field, not from a degree.
Not saying it isn't true but cite your sources please.
Sure, you are being paid to do engineering work. You are actually *doing* engineering work. Thats what the very definition of being an engineer means. Someone who is trained to DO engineering work. Not STUDY engineering work, DO engineering work.
Then what am I studying it for? I know I would need some field work and that is one of the requirements so I will get it, but studying is also one of the factors of what makes you an engineer. Not having a degree in the field doesn't make you an engineer. Heard of the word credentials?
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:25 AM
Pheonix, here is the definition of engineer:
Engineer \En`gi*neer"\, n. [OE. enginer: cf. OF. engignier, F. ing['e]nieur. See Engine, n.]
1. A person skilled in the principles and practice of any branch of engineering. See under Engineering, n.
2. One who manages as engine, particularly a steam engine; an engine driver.
3. One who carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance; an efficient manager. [Colloq.]
Civil engineer, a person skilled in the science of civil engineering.
Military engineer, one who executes engineering works of a military nature. See under Engineering.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Engineer \En`gi*neer"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Engineered; p. pr. & vb. n. Engineering.]
1. To lay out or construct, as an engineer; to perform the work of an engineer on; as, to engineer a road. --J. Hamilton.
2. To use contrivance and effort for; to guide the course of; to manage; as, to engineer a bill through Congress. [Colloq.]
At what point does it say degree?
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:26 AM
Pheonix, you are studying engineering, because the quickest and most effective way to gain the knowledge required to do the work of an engineer is to complete a course on it (in my case 3-5 years). The degree simply shows you have completed said course.
Just curious.
I wouldn't want people saying they are Mathematicians merely because they study mathematics. That would bother me. I met many dumb students studying mathematics... of course, most don't graduate.
I didn't use the word *Studying* mathematics anywhere. There was a reason why I was *careful* in what I said.
Please be *careful* reading what I *write*.
JasonRox
Jun10-09, 12:28 AM
I didn't use the word *Studying* mathematics anywhere. There was a reason why I was *careful* in what I said.
Please be *careful* reading what I *write*.
Um... I *agreed* implicitly.
Just curious.
.
For engineers, I think it started because of a Canadian bridge collapse which was due to negligence. Before that everyone could call him/herself engineer but they made a law after that incident. I don't think there's any law for England even now.
For Mathematicians, because they don't make things that can endanger people lives so there's no need to have any for legal definitions for it. Everyone whose work affects public directly should need a license IMO.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:30 AM
Just curious.
I wouldn't want people saying they are Mathematicians merely because they study mathematics. That would bother me. I met many dumb students studying mathematics... of course, most don't graduate.
As I stated earlier, until graduation I refuse to call myself an engineer. But that is simply because until then I won't consider myself to have the knowledge required to do the job of one. Even then I think I would want some experience which is what my one year placement is for.
JasonRox
Jun10-09, 12:31 AM
For engineers, I think it started because of a Canadian bridge collapse which was due to negligence. Before that everyone could call him/herself engineer but they made a law after that incident. I don't think there's any law for England even now.
For Mathematicians, because they don't make things that can endanger people lives so there's no need to have any for legal definitions for it. Everyone whose work affects public directly should need a license IMO.
Exactly, cause I met "engineers" according to Cyrus but I know in Canada the attitude is totally different.
I met people here who do "engineer" type jobs but again some of them will say they are not an "engineer" based on the fact they are not licenced.
//:phoenix:\\
Jun10-09, 12:32 AM
I am talking about the contextual use, not the definition of an engineer. The popular meaning of what makes person (insert said field). The root meaning was overridden by the singularity of the widespread use of what makes a physicist, therapist, and soldier. As, if you don't have the degree you won't be known as an engineer.
A person skilled in the principles and practice of any branch of engineering.
That heavily implies it.
As I stated earlier, until graduation I refuse to call myself an engineer. But that is simply because until then I won't consider myself to have the knowledge required to do the job of one. Even then I think I would want some experience which is what my one year placement is for.
So you basically agree with me, right? It's just that you disagree with my notion of what makes an actual engineer?
JasonRox
Jun10-09, 12:32 AM
As I stated earlier, until graduation I refuse to call myself an engineer. But that is simply because until then I won't consider myself to have the knowledge required to do the job of one. Even then I think I would want some experience which is what my one year placement is for.
So, you can graduate and then work at McDonald's afterwards but still call yourself an "engineer"?
That makes no sense to me.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:33 AM
For engineers, I think it started because of a Canadian bridge collapse which was due to negligence. Before that everyone could call him/herself engineer but they made a law after that incident. I don't think there's any law for England even now.
No, we don't have any rules on it. That is why someone who fixes household appliances can call themselves an engineer. In any other profession they would be a technician / service person, but no we have people calling themselves engineers. This is why no one understands how difficult my degree actually is and when I do show them the maths work involved whether it is pure, stats or thermodynamics etc. they are shocked.
JasonRox
Jun10-09, 12:34 AM
No, we don't have any rules on it. That is why someone who fixes household appliances can call themselves an engineer. In any other profession they would be a technician / service person, but no we have people calling themselves engineers. This is why no one understands how difficult my degree actually is and when I do show them the maths work involved whether it is pure, stats or thermodynamics etc. they are shocked.
Well, they are idiots.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:37 AM
I am talking about the contextual use, not the definition of an engineer. The popular meaning of what makes person (insert said field). The root meaning was overridden by the singularity of the widespread use of what makes a physicist, therapist, and soldier. As, if you don't have the degree you won't be known as an engineer.
That heavily implies it.
So you basically agree with me, right? It's just that you disagree with my notion of what makes an actual engineer?
I meant it in the sense that I will not have the skill set to do an engineers job until I graduate. But if someone develops the skills required without doing a degree course, it does not mean they are any less of an engineer. It just means they cannot become chartered. If you ask me, these days the only way to get the skills to do an engineering job is to do a degree, but just because you dont do a degree doesnt mean you are less of an engineer than someone with one.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:39 AM
So, you can graduate and then work at McDonald's afterwards but still call yourself an "engineer"?
That makes no sense to me.
No, with todays 'employee management' I'd probably be a 'food technician' or some bull like that. But anyway, regardless of the job I do I still retain the knowledge gained and so could certainly call myself it.
But to me, the job also plays a part in determining what you call yourself. If I work in an engineering role, whether I have a degree or not, as long as the knowledge and skills are there I am considered and engineer.
If you have the knowledge required and perform a job in the role of an engineer, then you are an engineer.
So what you guys are saying is, if a person without a degree applies for a job as an engineer, proves he has the ability to do it and gets it, because he lacks that piece of paper the role suddenly becomes something else and not an engineering one? The person is not considered an engineer despite doing the same work as a person with a degree?
//:phoenix:\\
Jun10-09, 12:43 AM
No, we don't have any rules on it. That is why someone who fixes household appliances can call themselves an engineer. In any other profession they would be a technician / service person, but no we have people calling themselves engineers. This is why no one understands how difficult my degree actually is and when I do show them the maths work involved whether it is pure, stats or thermodynamics etc. they are shocked.
I will never believe this. Call me whatever you want but if someone only knows how to fix household appliances but not exactly the mathematics behind it, then they aren't engineers. They are skilled-workers.
So what you guys are saying is, if a person without a degree applies for a job as an engineer, proves he has the ability to do it and gets it, because he lacks that piece of paper the role suddenly becomes something else and not an engineering one? The person is not considered an engineer despite doing the same work as a person with a degree?
I would guess the person wouldn't have the knowledge I've acquired through school so, no I would not call him/her an engineer. I can't speak for the other guy but that is just my view on it.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 12:49 AM
I will never believe this. Call me whatever you want but if someone only knows how to fix household appliances but not exactly the mathematics behind it, then they aren't engineers. They are skilled-workers.
Tell that to british gas:
"Smell gas, give us a ring and we'll have an engineer round to you ASAP." That so called engineer doesn't know the mathematics of how boilers work, most are simply gas fitters who are corgi registered, no degree required there.
I would guess the person wouldn't have the knowledge I've acquired through school so, no I would not call him/her an engineer. I can't speak for the other guy but that is just my view on it.
Well theres your problem. You guess/assume. You fresh out of uni with no industrial experience are not going to beat an experienced person with a long resume of career successes in the engineering field just because they lack a piece of paper.
You fresh out of uni with no industrial experience are not going to beat an experienced person with a long resume of career successes in the engineering field just because they lack a piece of paper.
Lets remove all the restrictions and let everyone work as a engineer who wants to. Why we even have restrictions for doctors or policemen then? Lets also remove their restrictions too...
If tomorrow something wrong happens, don't go look for Engineering regulation body .. (or a body that maintains the profession)
Let's all stop for a moment and reflect on this thread and ask ourselves.
Why the hell does this really matter? I mean, honestly???? Do you really need to call yourself x,y,z so you can feel good and sleep at night? If so, seek help.
How about you let your work speak for you - which is what I've been saying all along.
Lets remove all the restrictions and let everyone work as a engineer who wants to. Why we even have restrictions for doctors or policemen then? Lets also remove their restrictions too...
If tomorrow something wrong happens, don't go look for Engineering regulation body .. (or a body that maintains the profession)
Let's make good posts. I already explained this.
I hereby revoke your title of Dr.
Why the hell does this really matter? I mean, honestly???? Do you really need to call yourself x,y,z so you can feel good and sleep at night? If so, seek help.
It's not about about the titles/names but the about legal/ethical accountability. I am only going for having legal restrictions for particular professions like engineers/police/doctors I don't care about the titles itself.
These (legal) names/title were made to prevent mistakes not just because of some irrational reason.
Pengwuino
Jun10-09, 01:02 AM
Why the hell does this really matter? I mean, honestly???? Do you really need to call yourself x,y,z so you can feel good and sleep at night?
Yes.
If so, seek help.
No.
This thread is hilarious.
It's not about about the titles/names but the about legal/ethical accountability. I only going for having legal restrictions for particular professions like engineers/police/doctors I don't care about the titles itself.
These (legal) names/title were made to prevent mistakes not just because of some irrational reason.
I *already* EXPLAINED what the legal implications are, mannnnnnnnnn.
<This thread annoys me because people don't *LISTEN*>
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 01:03 AM
Lets remove all the restrictions and let everyone work as a engineer who wants to. Why we even have restrictions for doctors or policemen then? Lets also remove their restrictions too...
Policemen don't have degrees. It isn't required. They train to be proficient at the job.
The only way to get experience as a doctor is to do a degree and then work as an intern in a hospital.
Cut the crap, now you are clutching at straws.
To be a chef you either go to college and then work under a head chef. Or you start at the bottom in a kitchen and work your way up. Still considered a chef either way.
Yes.
No.
This thread is hilarious.
I hereby make you Dr. for not being annoying.
http://ui08.gamespot.com/1735/failed_2.jpg
Ahhh, it had to be done folks. It had to be done.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 01:08 AM
I find it strange pheonix that under your view of this, you would consider a person who learns to pass the exams to get a degree yet retains no knowledge/skills, to be an engineer, but would take a person who is highly skilled and holds a huge knowledge of engineering principles and cast them aside as a nothing simply because they have no degree.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 01:09 AM
Ahhh, it had to be done folks. It had to be done.
Yes Cyrus, YES IT DID!!!!!!!!!
humanino
Jun10-09, 01:25 AM
Degrees, titles, even academic positions have little to do with being a physicist, a musician, a painter, a hunter, a pilot, a fireman, a thief or a murderer. A piece of paper does not change your personality. If you are passionate for something and live every day with this passion, who cares what other people call you ?
The profession does not honor the man, it is the man who honors the profession.
(Victor Hugo, poorly translated)
Degrees, titles, even academic positions have little to do with being a physicist, a musician, a painter, a hunter, a pilot, a fireman, a thief or a murderer. A piece of paper does not change your personality. If you are passionate for something and live every day with this passion, who cares what other people call you ?
The profession does not honor the man, it is the man who honors the profession.
(Victor Hugo, poorly translated)
You already have a PhD, or I'd give you one too.
Pengwuino
Jun10-09, 01:38 AM
I find it strange pheonix that under your view of this, you would consider a person who learns to pass the exams to get a degree yet retains no knowledge/skills, to be an engineer, but would take a person who is highly skilled and holds a huge knowledge of engineering principles and cast them aside as a nothing simply because they have no degree.
Straw man.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 01:40 AM
Straw man.
What? Can't say I understand.
Pengwuino
Jun10-09, 01:42 AM
What? Can't say I understand.
Straw man argument.
Straw man argument.
Cardboard box.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 01:46 AM
In what sense? He says he only accepts an engineer is a person with an engineering degree. And has stated himself, no matter what a person knows about engineering, no matter how good they are at an engineering job, if they don't have a degree to him they are not an engineer.
To be the straw man argument I would have had to state this and then attack it, and then claim his original statement is false because of my presented argument of my statement. Whereas Pheonix has actually stated he only accepts a person with a degree as an engineer and that anyone without is not one.
Pengwuino
Jun10-09, 01:49 AM
I suggest you look up what a straw man argument is defined as like I just have.
What?
Furthermore, you claim someone with a degree only knows how to take exams and knows no real knowledge and someone whos been in the industry for a long time always has a wealth of knowledge and understanding. It's silly.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 01:51 AM
Thank you Cyrus I just googled to find what a Cardboard Box argument is! Feel like a right plonker now.
JaredJames
Jun10-09, 01:53 AM
What?
Furthermore, you claim someone with a degree only knows how to take exams and knows no real knowledge and someone whos been in the industry for a long time always has a wealth of knowledge and understanding. It's silly.
I didn't claim anything of the sort. I simply pointed out that some people who do the degree are like that. At NO POINT did I say ALL people who do degrees simply learn to pass exams. Please do not take posts out of context like that, in my book you are seriously discredited because of it.
Dadface
Jun10-09, 03:25 AM
I'm thick so I'm a thicksisist.
I can't believe I sat and read all of this. What a waste of time.
What else can you do when you are enduser ?
Chi Meson
Jun10-09, 08:17 AM
Stop this absurd thread. Flatmaster checked out at post 9. NINE! He began with a fairly benign question, and it doesn't appear that an answer either way was going to define anything or anybody, yet it devolved into a mini war, a flame-p!$$!ng contest. I appreciate our "edgy" (dammit, is there another word?) members and the humor they bring, but...
what is this, Youtube?
Astronuc
Jun10-09, 08:40 AM
Locked pending moderation. :rolleyes:
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.