The Universe Is Alive And Thinking

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of consciousness in relation to matter, exploring whether consciousness can exist independently of matter and how it may pervade the universe. Participants engage with philosophical, spiritual, and scientific perspectives, examining definitions of matter and consciousness, and considering implications of consciousness at various levels of existence.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that consciousness may exist at all levels of matter, including atomic and subatomic levels, as suggested by physicist Fred Allen Wolf.
  • Others question whether consciousness requires matter, with references to ancient Vedic scriptures that describe consciousness as subtle and separate from gross matter.
  • There is a discussion about defining matter, with some suggesting it could be viewed as a library of information, while others find this definition unrecognizable.
  • One participant argues that the scientific understanding of photons being massless is flawed due to the limitations of measurement instruments.
  • Some participants share personal experiences related to out-of-body experiences (OBEs) and discuss the implications for understanding consciousness and its relationship to matter.
  • A distinction is made between consciousness and the soul, with one participant suggesting that the soul gives life to matter and that consciousness is a channel for the soul's energy.
  • There is a question about whether matter can exist independently of consciousness and the soul, with some arguing that matter is dependent on the soul for its existence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the relationship between consciousness and matter, with no consensus reached on definitions or the implications of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Participants' definitions of matter and consciousness vary significantly, and there are unresolved questions about the nature of consciousness in the absence of matter. The discussion includes references to spiritual beliefs and personal experiences that may not align with scientific perspectives.

RAD4921
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The Universe Is Alive And Thinking!

...because we are alive and thinking.

Ming acting on a molecular scale implies that consciousness may exist at all levels of matter even atomic and subatomic levels---Physicist Fred Alllen Wolf
 
Space news on Phys.org
The Universe is thinking perverted thoughts.

Do you believe consciousness requires matter?
 
How would you define matter? Would a massless photon be matter?
 
selfAdjoint said:
How would you define matter? Would a massless photon be matter?

Could we define matter as a large library of informtion? The photon being a book in that large library of information. In a very large library a photon would appear to be massless.
 
Rader said:
Could we define matter as a large library of informtion? The photon being a book in that large library of information. In a very large library a photon would appear to be massless.

Sorry, that means nothing to me. That kind of definition could mean anything and I can't recognize anything I would recognize as matter in it.
 
Science doesn't have the perfect instrument to find the photon to be massless. If they find the mass of the photon to be ie: 0.00 micrograms, that doesn't mean that its massless. The mass can very well be 0.0000001 micrograms. So, since science can't give the absolute value, its imperfect, and thus, their conclusion that a photon is massless must be wrong.
 
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BoulderHead said:
Do you believe consciousness requires matter?

According to ancient Vedic scriptures, a body made of matter is pervaded by consciousness. The consciousness is not gross like matter but is subtle. So the Earth is alive, that is why the Hindus pray to Mother Earth because it is pervaded by consciousness separate from our consciousness. But our consciousness adds to the effect of the planet's consciousness. So yes, the universe is pervaded by consciousness.
 
haribol said:
According to ancient Vedic scriptures, a body made of matter is pervaded by consciousness. The consciousness is not gross like matter but is subtle. So the Earth is alive, that is why the Hindus pray to Mother Earth because it is pervaded by consciousness separate from our consciousness. But our consciousness adds to the effect of the planet's consciousness. So yes, the universe is pervaded by consciousness.
So, you state that matter is pervaded by consciousness. Choosing not to dispute the point at this place in time, I ask; is consciousness to be found in the absence of matter?
 
RAD4921 said:
...because we are alive and thinking.

Ming acting on a molecular scale implies that consciousness may exist at all levels of matter even atomic and subatomic levels---Physicist Fred Alllen Wolf

Oh yes, and it does it's best thinking using the fuzzy dice hanging from my rear view mirror. :smile:
 
  • #10
Obe

BoulderHead said:
So, you state that matter is pervaded by consciousness. Choosing not to dispute the point at this place in time, I ask; is consciousness to be found in the absence of matter?

BoulderHead, may I answer that question, if you do not mind.

Thats a very good question, its curious you ask at this point in time, I was discussing this evening with my associate and close friend the answer you seek. Since I have been discussing this consciousness issue on other threads, he might lend a few important insights.

This person has had several OBE, out of the body experiences, him not me so this is his experience. Its the typical, you are laying in bed relaxed and all of a sudden you are floating over your body and look down at yourself and say, that can not be me I am up here.

Now I had a series of questions I put to him. Were you sleeping when this happened? No I was not, but when I looked down on my body it had its eyes closed. What did you feel prior to this event? My body seemed to loose all its weight, parts at a time until I felt weightless and then, it was like a separation all at once. Did you notice anything else about your body at that time. Yes it had a blue glow that could be seen on the exterior of the epidermis. What made you think that you were floating over your body. I could see out the window and the room had a geometric difference obviously from looking down instead of up. Did you know who you were? Yes I did that is what got me very nervous, I did not know what was happening. I tried to reason what this could be, was I dead, dreaming, hallucinating or what. Did you see your body from where you were conscious? No I did not think of that, I will do that next time. :wink: If you could float in the air why did you not go outside of the window. I wanted to, I was thinking just that, but I am a nervous person and was getting very anxious, to know what the heck was going on and wanted everything to be OK again. What did you do? I went back into my body that was on the bed, that is whatever was me thinking and conscious floating in the air went back into my body on the bed. How do you know you went back into your body? Because I could see my body with my consciousness observing its appendages from down on the bed not up on the ceiling.

This has never happened to me, although I have tried to force it. As far as I have gone is relaxed meditation, to the point I do not feel my body and a very strange sensation of coming out of yourself, a sort of heavy weight being lifted off of you. But sorry never made it.

I live in a town of 30,000 people and you can get to know just about everyone if you want to. There is a whole slew of people this has happened to in diverse ways and occasions, that I have interviewed and investigated.
http://www.soultravel.nu/2004/040326-MissZ/index.asp
 
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  • #11
So, you state that matter is pervaded by consciousness. Choosing not to dispute the point at this place in time, I ask; is consciousness to be found in the absence of matter?

Yes, its a symptom of the "soul" that many spiritual people speak about. The soul is superior to matter. So it can exist with or without matter.
 
  • #12
What is a notable difference between consciousness and soul?

Also; Is it impossible for matter to exist independently of both/either?
 
  • #13
What is a notable difference between consciousness and soul?

According to my understanding, the soul gives life to matter. Consciousness in human beings is very developed because the matter(in this the human body) is designed such that there is facility for the consciousness to develop. The soul which is in a body is the giver of energy to that body. Consciousness is like the channel through which the soul utilize his energy. If you are a gambler then you are always thinking about gambling. If you are a serious math student then most likely your consciousness will be thinking mathematically of everything. So similarly there are many different consciousness through which the soul will be functioning. But there is one original consciousness which is 100% compatible with the soul, and that is the consciousness spiritual aspirants are after. That is the difference of consciousness and soul according to my understanding.

Also; Is it impossible for matter to exist independently of both/either?

Matter is dependent on the soul. Just like if you have a human body that is "dead", which means the soul has moved from that body, that body will deteriorate to the most basic elements. Now if you have a human body that is "living", which means the soul is still located in that body, then the body does not deteriorate as fast as a dead body. Ultimately, matter will deteriorate but the soul is ever shining and youthful. So according to the cyclic theory which the scientists have theorized about, the material universe undergoes periods of creation and dissolution which is said in Srimad Bhagavatam and the modern science is now understanding this slightly http://wwwphy.princeton.edu/~steinh/. You can also refer to this article for some enlightenment http://science.krishna.org/Articles/2004/05/006.html
 
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  • #14
haribol,
There are a number of 'attacks' I would make on what you've posted. When and if I finally make up mind where to begin I'll post back.
I would like to thank you for your open and friendly explanations.
 
  • #15
It is my understanding that both matter and soul,spirit or non-matter are all parts of one reality and exist as part of that reality put they are interactive.
Soul/spirit can and does effect matter and matter can and does effect soul/spirit.
Soul/spirit can and does exist independent of matter. Matter, however, is the result of the soul/spirit/creator/God and would not and could not exist independently. As such it is the conscious of the universe that makes matter possible and makes it behave according to the physical laws set forth at it's creation if that is the right word possibly advent would be better as it would not invoke anti-creationist reactions.
In our conscious reality both are independent.
 
  • #16
Royce said:
Matter, however, is the result of the soul/spirit/creator/God and would not and could not exist independently.
I am throwing out a few tidbits around the forum this morning before packing away my computer. I am looking at what Haribol said about the soul leaving the body and what I see following such an event, accepting the premise for sake of argument, is base matter remaining (a rotting, soulless clump of meat, blood, and bone) without soul, spirit, consciousness, etc. This is one line of attack I am considering applying to the statements Haribol has posted. I haven't considered your position long enough to judge it, but I type in this message to give some advanced notice of my intent and strategy.
Tally-Ho! :biggrin:
 
  • #17
RAD4921 said:
...because we are alive and thinking.

Ming acting on a molecular scale implies that consciousness may exist at all levels of matter even atomic and subatomic levels---Physicist Fred Alllen Wolf
And just think of it, consciousness is the awareness of the fact that we exist in the moment, right? Whereas the moment is inclusive all things, including time and space. Now what might that suggest? That the whole Universe can be coordinated by a single thought perhaps? :wink:

Oh, let's not forget, the external world is merely the outside extension of that which goes on internally.
 
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