Obama's Medical Marijuana Policy Issued

[B. Elliott]

New Medical Marijuana Policy Issued
By DEVLIN BARRETT, AP
WASHINGTON (Oct. 19) - Pot-smoking patients or their sanctioned suppliers should not be targeted for federal prosecution in states that allow medical marijuana, prosecutors were told Monday in a new policy memo issued by the Justice Department.
Under the policy spelled out in a three-page legal memo, federal prosecutors are being told it is not a good use of their time to arrest people who use or provide medical marijuana in strict compliance with state law.

http://news.aol.com/article/new-medical-marijuana-policy/445182?icid=main|main|dl1|link6|http://news.aol.com/article/new-medical-marijuana-policy/445182

[mheslep]

New Medical Marijuana Policy Issued
By DEVLIN BARRETT, AP


http://news.aol.com/article/new-medical-marijuana-policy/445182?icid=main|main|dl1|link6|http://news.aol.com/article/new-medical-marijuana-policy/445182
That's a mistake imo. They should repeal or override the law if they see fit, not refuse to enforce it, or any other law.

[OmCheeto]

New Medical Marijuana Policy Issued
By DEVLIN BARRETT, AP


http://news.aol.com/article/new-medical-marijuana-policy/445182?icid=main|main|dl1|link6|http://news.aol.com/article/new-medical-marijuana-policy/445182

Odd. Strikes me as a Libertarian move. And here we all thought he was either Jesus or a Commie....

Thank you Mr. President, for giving us back one of our civil liberties.

[Office_Shredder]

It makes sense. There are a number of states where people acquire marijuana for medical purposes under controlled circumstances (regulated by the state). The fear of a federal crackdown is a bit much to put someone who already has medical problems through; obviously this isn't the best solution but until something more permanent can be followed through on it's a good band-aid approach. I'm surprised it took this long to happen

mheslep, federal agencies only have limited resources. Should they go after people who are criminals basically on a technicality? I would hope they have bigger fish to fry

[russ_watters]

mheslep, federal agencies only have limited resources. Should they go after people who are criminals basically on a technicality? I would hope they have bigger fish to fry What are you talking about? What technicality? Bigger fish? None of that bears any relation to what mheslep said. Mheslep provided no opinion about medical marijuana, only a complaint about the Obama administration not properly utilizing the functioning of government to make/repeal/enforce laws.

Anyway, I agree with him: if a law is on the books, it must be enforced. If a law is wrong, it should be challenged in the courts or repealed via the proper process. To order prosecutors not to do their jobs is unconstitutional.

[mheslep]

What are you talking about? What technicality? Bigger fish? None of that bears any relation to what mheslep said. Mheslep provided no opinion about medical marijuana, only a complaint about the Obama administration not properly utilizing the functioning of government to make/repeal/enforce laws.

Anyway, I agree with him: if a law is on the books, it must be enforced. If a law is wrong, it should be challenged in the courts or repealed via the proper process. To order prosecutors not to do their jobs is unconstitutional.
In addition to undermining the respect for the law, this action undermines the opportunity to properly regulate the sale of this narcotic, as there would be if the law was properly repealed. As it is, one can search the FDA on aspirin and get a mountain of recommendations, but for the narcotic marijuana on the FDA we get zip. Edit: scratch that, there is plenty of home drug test information!

[Hepth]

Legally, pot isn't a narcotic.

While I wouldn't call it a technicality, I would call it a dilemma. Right now, (i dont know) what happens when:
A) A state creates a law in direct conflict with a preexisting Federal law.
B) A Federal law is created that is in direct conflict with a preexisting state law.

Does the Federal Law take precedence? In both cases? Can a state prosecute someone for something that, while a federal law grants the right, a state law removes it?

Is there a machine in place to reconcile conflicting state and federal laws?

[Hepth]

Anyway, I agree with him: if a law is on the books, it must be enforced. If a law is wrong, it should be challenged in the courts or repealed via the proper process. To order prosecutors not to do their jobs is unconstitutional.

That's another issue I wonder about. If a law on the books is in the process of being repealed, do they suspend the prosecution of said law breakers? Do you keep prosecuting and if the law is repealed, just void their sentences/punishment? Is it retroactive for everyone? Whats the precedence in this?

My opinion would be to prosecute all law violations currently on the books. Whether or not it may be legal tomorrow does not influence its illegality today, and as such you should be prosecuted for today's actions, under today's laws.

[chroot]

I suspect it's being done to set up a precedent (look, the DEA stopped prosecuting medical marijuana users, and nothing bad happened) so that later full-legalization legislature will be easier to pass.

I don't think it's a waste of anyone's time for Obama to tell his federal employees to respect state laws. In my opinion, state laws should override federal laws in all circumstances where they conflict. Maybe Obama agrees.

- Warren

[lisab]

I suspect it's being done to set up a precedent (look, the DEA stopped prosecuting medical marijuana users, and nothing bad happened) so that later full-legalization legislature will be easier to pass.

I don't think it's a waste of anyone's time for Obama to tell his federal employees to respect state laws. In my opinion, state laws should override federal laws in all circumstances where they conflict. Maybe Obama agrees.

- Warren

I have to take issue with the second part of your statement (bolded). If that were the case, we might still have slavery in most of the South. I seriously doubt Obama would agree with that policy.

However, the first part I agree with. (Caveat: I have to admit, I don't pay much attention to drug laws/enforcement issues...it's all well off my radar screen.) Perhaps this is a step in the direction of re-thinking the war on drugs?

[B. Elliott]

I suspect it's being done to set up a precedent (look, the DEA stopped prosecuting medical marijuana users, and nothing bad happened) so that later full-legalization legislature will be easier to pass.

I don't think it's a waste of anyone's time for Obama to tell his federal employees to respect state laws. In my opinion, state laws should override federal laws in all circumstances where they conflict. Maybe Obama agrees.

- Warren

That's primarily what I was getting out of it. This could make for some very interesting cases in the future. If one state decided to fully legalize it for general use, same as alcohol, this administration wouldn't pursue legal action under the federal statute.

[Al68]

That's a mistake imo. They should repeal or override the law if they see fit, not refuse to enforce it, or any other law.They should just enforce it legally, ie only in the cases where there is federal jurisdiction in the matter like D.C., military bases, crossing state lines, etc.

There is no need to repeal the law, any more than the State of Alabama would need to repeal their laws because they don't enforce then in Georgia. Any law is only valid where it has jurisdiction.

Declining to enforce federal laws where there is no constitutional federal jurisdiction should be the standard, not the rare exception.

[Al68]

Anyway, I agree with him: if a law is on the books, it must be enforced. If a law is wrong, it should be challenged in the courts or repealed via the proper process. To order prosecutors not to do their jobs is unconstitutional.Can you reference the specific part of the constitution? I can't seem to find it. And my dislike for Obama had me looking pretty hard.

[russ_watters]

Does the Federal Law take precedence? In both cases? Yes. Can a state prosecute someone for something that, while a federal law grants the right, a state law removes it? No. Is there a machine in place to reconcile conflicting state and federal laws? Yes: the USSC.

[russ_watters]

Can you reference the specific part of the constitution? I can't seem to find it. And my dislike for Obama had me looking pretty hard. Article 1, Section 1.

[dx]

If a law is wrong, it should be challenged in the courts or repealed via the proper process. To order prosecutors not to do their jobs is unconstitutional.

The problem is that it is not easy to repeal this particular law due to the huge propoganda and brainwashing campaigns that have been going on for decades. This damage must be undone of course, and it may take a while, but there is no reason for medical marijuana users to suffer in the meantime.

[Vanadium 50]

The problem is that it is not easy to repeal this particular law due to the huge propoganda and brainwashing campaigns that have been going on for decades.

Yes, but this is the democratic process. Having one man decide what laws will and will not be executed puts his decision above those of the people who elected him. Historically, even when started with the best of intentions, it seldom ends well.

[dx]

I don't think its fair to say that he is putting his decision above others. The support for legalization of medical marijuana is close to 50% (and 70% among liberals). Also keep in mind that all the policy does is to advise the feds that it is not the best use of their resources. The law will still be enforced; only the focus of the enforcement will change.

[russ_watters]

The problem is that it is not easy to repeal this particular law due to the huge propoganda and brainwashing campaigns that have been going on for decades. This damage must be undone of course, and it may take a while, but there is no reason for medical marijuana users to suffer in the meantime.
In no country ruled by law is such s position acceptable. You advocate a decent into anarchy.

[russ_watters]

I don't think its fair to say that he is putting his decision above others. The support for legalization of medical marijuana is close to 50% (and 70% among liberals). Also keep in mind that all the policy does is to advise the feds that it is not the best use of their resources. The law will still be enforced; only the focus of the enforcement will change.
What popularity fraction do you consider sufficient to allow a leader to disregard the constitutional process?

Also, just to be clear, this is just about MEDICINAL marijuana, right? You would support regulation of it on a similar level as tylenol, right?

[Vanadium 50]

In no country ruled by law is such s position acceptable. You advocate a decent into anarchy.

Actually, I think it's a descent into dictatorship. One person decides which laws are fair and just and which ones aren't.

This has been tried before, and like I said, it seldom ends well. (To connect it to science, this is what killed Antoine Lavoisier)

I don't think its fair to say that he is putting his decision above others. The support for legalization of medical marijuana is close to 50% (and 70% among liberals).

The US system, as I understand it, decides what is law and what is not via Congress, not via opinion polls. And certainly not via opinion polls among only liberals.

[dx]

What popularity fraction do you consider sufficient to allow a leader to disregard the constitutional process?

Since you bring up constitution so much, can you tell me which part of the constitution allows there to be laws against people growing or possessing plants? It can be argued that the law against possession of marijuana itself is unconstitutional.

Also, just to be clear, this is just about MEDICINAL marijuana, right? You would support regulation of it on a similar level as tylenol, right?

Personally, I support legalization (not only for medicinal purposes), and regulation of it on a similar level as tobacco and alcohol. I don't know if that was the question though.

[dx]

The US system, as I understand it, decides what is law and what is not via Congress, not via opinion polls. And certainly not via opinion polls among only liberals.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating breaking existing laws. What Obama has done does not break any law as far as I am aware.

[Vanadium 50]

Since you bring up constitution so much, can you tell me which part of the constitution allows there to be laws against people growing or possessing plants?

The Commerce Clause.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating breaking existing laws. What Obama has done does not break any law as far as I am aware.

No, but you are arguing that he should be allowed to pick and choose what laws he will enforce and what laws he will not.

[dx]

I assume you're talking about the Gonzales v. Raich case. Don't you think its a little weird that they have to resort to the commerce clause to justify a drug law? It seems pretty clear that it is a desperate attempt to ban marijuana on some obscure technicality or vagueness in the constitution. Here is what Supreme court justice Clarence Thomas said:

Respondents Diane Monson and Angel Raich use marijuana that has never been bought or sold, that has never crossed state lines, and that has had no demonstrable effect on the national market for marijuana. If Congress can regulate this under the Commerce Clause, then it can regulate virtually anything – and the federal Government is no longer one of limited and enumerated powers

If I were an American, this is the kind of thing I would be worried about. It seems way more dictatorship-like than what Obama is doing.

[Vanadium 50]

Respondents Diane Monson and Angel Raich use marijuana that has never been bought or sold, that has never crossed state lines, and that has had no demonstrable effect on the national market for marijuana. If Congress can regulate this under the Commerce Clause, then it can regulate virtually anything – and the federal Government is no longer one of limited and enumerated powers

Precedent is against Justice Thomas. The case of Wickard v. Filburn in 1935 established that, under very similar circumstances. In it, the Court held that a farmer growing his own wheat on his own land for his own personal use was subject to federal legislation under the Commerce Clause. That ruling essentially ended the idea that the federal Government is one of limited and enumerated powers, since virtually any action - or inaction - has some non-zero effect on interstate commerce.

You might not like this, but unless you can find 62 million people who agree with you: 51% of the population of 75% of the states, the minimum it takes to amend the Constitution, that's how things will stay.

[Al68]

No, but you are arguing that he should be allowed to pick and choose what laws he will enforce and what laws he will not.The U.S. Constitution vests all federal executive power in the President. That's his job. Enforcing all laws 100% has never been an option. He must "pick and choose".Precedent is against Justice Thomas.But the actual words of the constitution are not.That ruling essentially ended the idea that the federal Government is one of limited and enumerated powersThe "idea" is still the actual supreme law of the land, whether it is honored or not.

[Al68]

Anyway, I agree with him: if a law is on the books, it must be enforced. If a law is wrong, it should be challenged in the courts or repealed via the proper process. To order prosecutors not to do their jobs is unconstitutional.Can you reference the specific part of the constitution? I can't seem to find it. And my dislike for Obama had me looking pretty hard.Article 1, Section 1.Art 1 Sec 1 says "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives."

Enforcement of law is executive power, not legislative power, and is vested entirely in the President.

[mheslep]

They should just enforce it legally, ie only in the cases where there is federal jurisdiction in the matter like D.C., military bases, crossing state lines, etc.

There is no need to repeal the law, any more than the State of Alabama would need to repeal their laws because they don't enforce then in Georgia. Any law is only valid where it has jurisdiction.

Declining to enforce federal laws where there is no constitutional federal jurisdiction should be the standard, not the rare exception.
Commerce clause. The feds have that jurisdiction:
By a vote of 6 to 3, the court ruled that Congress's constitutional authority to regulate the interstate market in drugs, licit or illicit, extends to small, homegrown quantities of doctor-recommended marijuana consumed under California's Compassionate Use Act, which was adopted by an overwhelming majority of voters in 1996.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06

I think I disagree w/ that ruling, and prefer Thomas in dissent:
In a separate dissent, Thomas added that if "the majority is to be taken seriously, the Federal Government may now regulate quilting bees, clothes drives and potluck suppers throughout the 50 states."

None the less because of that ruling the feds have authority.

Edit: I see now all this has already surfaced up thread.

[mheslep]

The problem is that it is not easy to repeal this particular law due to the huge propoganda and brainwashing campaigns that have been going on for decades.
Easy or not, the legislative process by way of the people's representatives is the way to address this.
This damage must be undone of course, and it may take a while, but there is no reason for medical marijuana users to suffer in the meantime.Clearly there is reason as has already been stated. The respect for rule of law suffers, and there will be widespread use of a drug completely outside the usual FDA process.

[mheslep]

Article 1, Section 1.

No, but you are arguing that he should be allowed to pick and choose what laws he will enforce and what laws he will not.

The U.S. Constitution vests all federal executive power in the President. That's his job. Enforcing all laws 100% has never been an option. He must "pick and choose".But the actual words of the constitution are not.The "idea" is still the actual supreme law of the land, whether it is honored or not.

Art 1 Sec 1 says "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives."

Enforcement of law is executive power, not legislative power, and is vested entirely in the President.
This entire line is about the separation of powers debate which could take over the thread. Its akin to Bush's signing statements. Congress indeed writes the laws, but Presidents have been pushing back saying in effect to Congress 'you may not usurp my executive authority in the act of writing these laws'. Congress replies 'you can not defacto rewrite the law in the act of enforcing it'. To be continued.

[mheslep]

... That ruling essentially ended the idea that the federal Government is one of limited and enumerated powers, since virtually any action - or inaction - has some non-zero effect on interstate commerce. Ended for the moment, unfortunately

You might not like this, but unless you can find 62 million people who agree with you: 51% of the population of 75% of the states, the minimum it takes to amend the Constitution, that's how things will stay.I dunno. Racial segregation had plenty of precedent and was eventually reversed. The Commerce Clause has been distorted beyond recognition. Some good cases and clever jurists might eventually undue the ills.

[mheslep]

Since you bring up constitution so much, can you tell me which part of the constitution allows there to be laws against people growing or possessing plants? It can be argued that the law against possession of marijuana itself is unconstitutional....Jumping in ... The individual states unquestionably have the authority to regulate drugs and alcohol. THC in marijuana is a drug. The federal government through the the commerce clause (as stated) has also taken on that authority nationwide. Whether the states and the fed should have actually written these laws as they have is another matter, but they have the power.

[mheslep]

The law will still be enforced; only the focus of the enforcement will change.Per the announcement, it is clear that any enforcement action against medicinal users will come to a halt.

[russ_watters]

Since you bring up constitution so much, can you tell me which part of the constitution allows there to be laws against people growing or possessing plants? Congress has the power to pass laws for the common good. Making harmful drugs illegal is part of the public good. That's article 1, section 8. It can be argued that the law against possession of marijuana itself is unconstitutional. Go for it - and good luck. Personally, I support legalization (not only for medicinal purposes), and regulation of it on a similar level as tobacco and alcohol. I don't know if that was the question though. That's what I was getting at, yes. The reason I ask is that it seems to me that the medicinal marijuana issue is just an attempt at a red herring argument. A smokescreen to mask a further adjenda. It is my perception that all these absurd specious arguments we get are just part of that. People are throwing as much crap at the wall as they can, hoping something will stick. And, it seems, some of it actually is sticking - the arguments are specious and don't hold up in court, nevertheless, Obama's using it and California is using it. But again, that's the bigger issue to me. I'm not a big fan of pot either way, but I'm much more concerned about these violations of the rule of law. These types of issues with states rights and constitutional powers are how we ended up with slavery and a civil war. I thought we had moved past that. Just to be clear, I am not advocating breaking existing laws. What Obama has done does not break any law as far as I am aware. It is crystal clear that both California and Obama (not to mention the "clinics" themselves) are breaking federal law.

Something from earlier: This damage must be undone of course, and it may take a while, but there is no reason for medical marijuana users to suffer in the meantime. You do understand that even if the federal government decriminalizes marijuana for medicinal use, to eventually classify it similar to something like Tylenol, the state of California and those "clinics" are still in violation of federal law, right? In order to properly turn marijuana into a drug like Tylenol, it would take a decade at least to get through FDA approval. Considering how many cancer patients are screaming for new drugs, it is a pretty specious argument about medicinal pot users "suffering in the meantime".

[russ_watters]

Art 1 Sec 1 says "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives."

Enforcement of law is executive power, not legislative power, and is vested entirely in the President. Correct, that's another way to look at it. So either way you look at it, Obama is violating the Constitution. If you look at this order as in effect repealing a law, that's article 1, section 1. If you look at this as Obama failing to uphold his executive responsibility (choosing not to enforce a law is choosing not to uphold your executive responsibility), then he's in violation of Article 2, section 1.

Please understand: this is not a case of choosing how to enforce a law, it is a case of choosing not to enforce the law.

I think the first way is more straightforward, though.

[mheslep]

.. In order to properly turn marijuana into a drug like Tylenol, it would take a decade at least to get through FDA approval. ...Agreed it needs regulation, but I doubt a decade. That kind of time is required for a new drug, but THC must be one of the most studied critters on the planet.

[dx]

Congress has the power to pass laws for the common good. Making harmful drugs illegal is part of the public good. That's article 1, section 8.

Who decides what is harmful and what is not? Are you aware that it has been known for a while that tobacco is far more harmful than marijuana? Why isn't tobacco illegal?

That's what I was getting at, yes. The reason I ask is that it seems to me that the medicinal marijuana issue is just an attempt at a red herring argument. A smokescreen to mask a further adjenda.

The medical effects of marijuana were found by doctors and researchers, not random people who just want to smoke pot. People who support legalization of course will use this as an opportunity to further their cause, but I don't think anyone in this category is masking their agenda.

It is my perception that all these absurd specious arguments we get are just part of that.

Which absurd arguments? The peer-reviewed and published research that shows the medical benefits of marijuana and its relative harmlessness?


Considering how many cancer patients are screaming for new drugs, it is a pretty specious argument about medicinal pot users "suffering in the meantime".

I don't know what your definition of 'suffering' is, but I think most people would agree that being prosecuted for using doctor recommended medicine is 'suffering'.

[russ_watters]

Actually, I think it's a descent into dictatorship. One person decides which laws are fair and just and which ones aren't.

This has been tried before, and like I said, it seldom ends well. (To connect it to science, this is what killed Antoine Lavoisier) The title issue here is about Obama and yes, in that respect it is a descent into dictatorship. I was going further with the issue and just didn't explain myself. There are several other levels on which you can look at it, which have been at least implied in this thread:

State level: The thread is about an Obama decision, but it is an Obama decision about a state violation of federal law. Ie, it is a states rights issue. IMO, "states rights" is typically a red herring used by extremists to explain away violations of federal law and there is rarely any validity to the issues*. On general principles, few people are really states rights advocates: ie, if the federal government legalizes MJ, people drop the states rights issue.

Individual level: Why stop at the state? If a federal or state law is morally wrong, why can't an individual make that decision and disobey it? This is what I was alluding to as a path to anarchy. Because of the broad implications, civil disobedience must be used very carefully, in very special circumstances. This can go back up to the Presidential level too - Lincoln violated law and the Consitution, but it was the right thing to do. The typical examples of civil disobedience come from the civil rights movement. But pot isn't about civil disobedience on a moral issue. When MLK and his followers got arrested for sit-ins in diners, it wasn't because they were hungry for undercooked poached eggs, it was about the larger issues of racial segregation. The pot issue isn't like that. This is about stoners wanting to make it easier for themselves to be stoners, and that's it. Sorry, but even if they are right and the federal law is wrong, a stoner's right to get high is not an important enough reason to trash the Constitution.

*Texan secessionists take the most heat for pushing crackpot "states rights" issues, but by far the biggest "states rights" state is California. And from one issue to the next, you can see from how California handles the issues whether they are just being radicals, thumbing their nose at the FED or if they have a legitimate issue that the FED is failing to address. Pot is the former, clean air is the latter. What do you do if the government is legitimately wrong (as perhaps they are on clean air)? Sue them! Get the issue into the courts. http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/20/california.emissions/

[turbo-1]

When my brother-in-law was suffering and dying from pancreatic cancer, his doctor prescribed Marinol - a spherical white gel-encapsulated pill that supposedly contained the active ingredients of marijuana. It did not restore his appetite or provide relief from pain and discomfort. He got relief from a very nice back-woods farmer lady that made pot brownies for him to help him get through his last weeks. I am very grateful to her for making that Maine Guide's last time here tolerable. He was an avid outdoorsman (red-neck, in other states, maybe) and a big-hearted guy who would do anything for his family. At the time, Maine had no medical marijuana laws, and I am so grateful that this lady took it upon herself to help him. He died in relative comfort at home, surrounded by his family and visited by friends, as often as could be accommodated. Like me, he was a Harley enthusiast, and would drop (about) everything to spend an evening fly-fishing when we thought there might be a good mayfly hatch on a pond in driving distance. He wasn't a slacker/stoner, but a hard-working family man, and I miss him greatly.

[lurflurf]

But pot isn't about civil disobedience on a moral issue.

It would seem that the principle that sick people should not be forced to suffer needlessly by moralizing buzy bodies is a larger issue.

[russ_watters]

Agreed it needs regulation, but I doubt a decade. That kind of time is required for a new drug, but THC must be one of the most studied critters on the planet. Studied as a medicine or studied to determine its harm? This is interesting: When my brother-in-law was suffering and dying from pancreatic cancer, his doctor prescribed Marinol - a spherical white gel-encapsulated pill that supposedly contained the active ingredients of marijuana. It did not restore his appetite or provide relief from pain and discomfort. He got relief from a very nice back-woods farmer lady that made pot brownies... I didn't know such pills existed, but in any case, the pill didn't work, but the brownies did. So was it a dosage issue or does the pill just not work for what it is supposed to do?

I'd never heard of Marinol, but it is a real medicine from a real pharma company, so perhaps you're right, mheslep, perhaps it would be quicker than 10 years.

[mheslep]

...*Texan secessionists take the most heat for pushing crackpot "states rights" issues, but by far the biggest "states rights" state is California. And from one issue to the next, you can see from how California handles the issues whether they are just being radicals, thumbing their nose at the FED or if they have a legitimate issue that the FED is failing to address. Pot is the former, clean air is the latter. What do you do if the government is legitimately wrong (as perhaps they are on clean air)? Sue them! Get the issue into the courts. http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/20/california.emissions/Great point about Ca being the most radical on states rights, I completely agree. There are many more examples.

[russ_watters]

Who decides what is harmful and what is not? In this case, the federal government. Are you aware that it has been known for a while that tobacco is far more harmful than marijuana? Why isn't tobacco illegal? Maybe it should be. But you're not interested in making tobacco illegal, you're interested in making marijuana legal. So I don't think you really want to go down that road with this discussion. :wink: The medical effects of marijuana were found by doctors and researchers, not random people who just want to smoke pot. People who support legalization of course will use this as an opportunity to further their cause, but I don't think anyone in this category is masking their agenda. I'll freely acknowledge not being real up on the extent of the research on MJ. Quite frankly, I'm not interested. If the case is good, fine: then the case should be made to the federal government to change the law. Again, this thread, to me, is more about the violation of federal law than it is about pot itself.

[russ_watters]

It would seem that the principle that sick people should not be forced to suffer needlessly by moralizing buzy bodies is a larger issue.
I think you missed my point. My point is that most people are making an issue of medical marijuana because they want to get high, not because they really care that much about medicines. If pot had a lot of medical uses but didn't make people high, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The moralizing is a smokescreen.

[Vanadium 50]

Are you aware that it has been known for a while that tobacco is far more harmful than marijuana? Why isn't tobacco illegal?

Because that isn't what the people of the United States of America, through their elected representatives, have decided. Simple as that.

Now, you might argue that they have made a bad decision, and I might even agree with you, but the remedy surely isn't that the President decides that his idea of how things should be somehow supersedes what the people, through Congress, think it should be.

[Al68]

Correct, that's another way to look at it. So either way you look at it, Obama is violating the Constitution. If you look at this order as in effect repealing a law, that's article 1, section 1. If you look at this as Obama failing to uphold his executive responsibility (choosing not to enforce a law is choosing not to uphold your executive responsibility), then he's in violation of Article 2, section 1.

Please understand: this is not a case of choosing how to enforce a law, it is a case of choosing not to enforce the law.

I think the first way is more straightforward, though.The power to choose which violations of federal law to prosecute, and which not to, is executive power, and is vested in the President. Prosecuting them all is simply not one of his choices, and is not required by Art 2, sec 1, for the obvious reason that it would be an impossible task.

I hate defending Obama, but prosecuting every violation of every law is just not one of his options, even if you disagree with the ones he chooses not to.

[Hepth]

Isn't this sort of blow out of proportion since Odgen's memo was advisement rather than order?

I don't see what the big deal is. I feel like some people are making it out to be ::
"Obama writes law stating not to prosecute illegal drug users."

when in reality it is:
David Ogden, an Obama-appointed Deputy Attorney General, advises in a memo to not focus federal resources on individuals whose actions are in clear and unambiguous compliance with existing state laws providing for the medical use of marijuana, though prosecutors are allowed wide discretion in which cases they choose to deem worthy of pursuit.

Right?

[russ_watters]

The power to choose which violations of federal law to prosecute, and which not to, is executive power, and is vested in the President. Prosecuting them all is simply not one of his choices, and is not required by Art 2, sec 1, for the obvious reason that it would be an impossible task. That's patently absurd, at face value. The President cannot arbitrarily decide to throw out a law. Yes, the President must at least make a reasonable attempt to execute every law the Congress charges him to execute. It doesn't mean he must successfully prosecute every criminal, but he can't simply discard a law entirely.

The President is charged with carrying out the laws of Congress. Nowhere does it say the President is charged with carrying out the laws he feels like carrying out or the laws he agrees with or the laws he likes. There are no such qualifiers on his responsibility.

Here's a quote from a constitutional law textbook. It is plain as day (as it is from reading the consitution itself and applying some simple logic!): The President is an agent selected by the people, for the express purpose of seeing that the laws of the land are executed. If, upon his own judgment, he refuse to execute a law and thus nullifies it, he is arrogating to himself controlling legislative functions, and laws have but an advisory, recommendatory character, depending for power upon the good-will of the President. That there is danger that Congress may by a chance majority, or through the influence of sudden great passion, legislate unwisely or unconstitutionally, was foreseen by those who framed our form of government, and the provision was framed that the President might at his discretion use a veto, but this was the entire extent to which he was allowed to go in the exercise of a check upon the legislation. It was expressly provided that if, after his veto, two-thirds of the legislature should again demand that the measure become a law, it should thus be, notwithstanding the objection of the Chief Executive. Surely there is here left no further constitutional right on the part of the President to hinder the operation of a law.http://chestofbooks.com/society/law/The-Constitutional-Law-Of-The-United-States/767-Obligation-Of-The-President-To-Enforce-Laws-Believed-By.html

[russ_watters]

Isn't this sort of blow out of proportion since Odgen's memo was advisement rather than order?
What's the difference between an "advisement" and an "order"?

And how is it ok for the President to "advise" his prosecutors to disregard federal law?

[mheslep]

The power to choose which violations of federal law to prosecute, and which not to, is executive power, and is vested in the President. ...Not exactly. We really want A II, S3 here: he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed...So there is an interpreted standard, guided by 'take care' and 'faithfully'. Must he prosecute everyone on the slightest suspicion of infraction to meet that standard? Obviously not. Can he utterly ignore enforcement of a statute across all its various applications on his own whim and meet that standard? Obviously not. There's middle ground. Examples of leeway would include laws that they are completely impractical to enforce, laws that are hopelessly ambiguous, laws that are in conflict with some other law or themselves and as yet un-clarified by the courts.

[russ_watters]

Please note that Bush was criticized (correctly) for doing the same thing: The president is indicating that he will not either enforce part or the entirety of congressional bills," said ABA president Michael S. Greco, a Massachusetts attorney. "We will be close to a constitutional crisis if this issue, the president's use of signing statements, is left unchecked."

The report seemed likely to fuel the controversy over signing statements, which Bush has used to challenge laws including a congressional ban on torture, a request for data on the USA Patriot Act, whistle-blower protections and the banning of U.S. troops in fighting rebels in Colombia. http://michaelthompson.org/liberty/index.php?o=20060724#20060724

[Hepth]

What's the difference between an "advisement" and an "order"?

And how is it ok for the President to "advise" his prosecutors to disregard federal law?

How did the president do this? Because someone he appointed made a judgment call about priorities in federal prosecution?
This isn't a signing statement like Bush.

If you read the memo it comes across as more of a sheriff telling his deputy not to watch crosswalks for jaywalkers all day, but to rather work on higher priority crimes.

To be honest, I figured by now this was pretty much rule of thumb for federal investigators. Prior to this memo, I doubt too many would go out of their way to book someone on medicinal marijuana, let alone someone with a serious illness.

"Of course, no State can authorize violations of federal law, and the list of factors above is not intended to describe exhaustively when a federal prosecution may be warranted. "

Which is obvious he's not intending to NOT prosecute them...


EDIT:

For those that are arguing for or against what this memo said, without having actually, fully read it, please take the time to do so. Don't go on what the media is reporting from either side.
http://blogs.usdoj.gov/blog/archives/192

[russ_watters]

How did the president do this? Because someone he appointed made a judgment call about priorities in federal prosecution?
This isn't a signing statement like Bush.
I am making an assumption there - I am assuming the Justice Department didn't come up with this policy on their own/in a vacuum. I think that it is a reasonable assumption. However, if it is wrong, then it just means Obama is off the hook (except insofar as now he should deal with the issue) and the Justice department is on it.

For the rest, are you saying you interpret from the memo that prosecutions for this crime will still occur under this policy, just not as many? Or do you read in it that no prosecutions will occur? I read that no prosecutions will occur.

[Al68]

The President cannot arbitrarily decide to throw out a law. I agree, and that's not what happened.but he can't simply discard a law entirely.I agree, and that's not what happened.And how is it ok for the President to "advise" his prosecutors to disregard federal law?What federal law makes it illegal to decline to prosecute drug users? The federal law makes one subject to prosecution, but does not require a prosecutor to prosecute it. This is true of laws in general, they allow but don't require prosecution.

It is simply and obviously not a violation of any law for a prosecutor to decline to prosecute "individuals with cancer or other serious illnesses who use marijuana as part of a recommended treatment regimen".

[OmCheeto]

If you read the memo it comes across as more of a sheriff telling his deputy not to watch crosswalks for jaywalkers all day, but to rather work on higher priority crimes.

That's pretty much how I view this.

EDIT:

For those that are arguing for or against what this memo said, without having actually, fully read it, please take the time to do so. Don't go on what the media is reporting from either side.
http://blogs.usdoj.gov/blog/archives/192

Thank you for that link.

But this Obama fella sure is peculiar.
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He actually keeps campaign promises. I always thought there was a rule against that.

[seycyrus]

...

He actually keeps campaign promises. I always thought there was a rule against that.

So, the tally is up to one now?

[OmCheeto]

So, the tally is up to one now?

48 according to the Obameter:

http://tampabay.com/universal/politifact/images/mainquote-obama-mug.gif (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/)

[lisab]

48 according to the Obameter:

http://tampabay.com/universal/politifact/images/mainquote-obama-mug.gif (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/)

I can't believe that site missed that chance to coin the word "ObamaMonitor"...what a shame.

[Galteeth]

What are you talking about? What technicality? Bigger fish? None of that bears any relation to what mheslep said. Mheslep provided no opinion about medical marijuana, only a complaint about the Obama administration not properly utilizing the functioning of government to make/repeal/enforce laws.

Anyway, I agree with him: if a law is on the books, it must be enforced. If a law is wrong, it should be challenged in the courts or repealed via the proper process. To order prosecutors not to do their jobs is unconstitutional.

You are incorrect. The execution of law at the federal level is the responsibility of the executive. Barring a specific direction by congress, the manner in which the executive branch enforces laws is at the discretion of the executive in so long as he executes the laws faithfully. This is a a case of prioritizing enforcement. An analogous situation would be where congress declares a war. The president must execute the war, but the choice of targets and strategy are ulimately up to him.

[seycyrus]

48 according to the Obameter:
[/URL]

Oh great, Politifact....

[Galteeth]

.

To be honest, I figured by now this was pretty much rule of thumb for federal investigators. Prior to this memo, I doubt too many would go out of their way to book someone on medicinal marijuana, let alone someone with a serious illness.

"side.
http://blogs.usdoj.gov/blog/archives/192

Bush specifically targeted marijuana. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jul/25/usa.richardluscombe

I recall reading that he actually specifically targeted medical producers, as he saw it as a gateway to legalization, but I will have to find the source for that.

EDIT: Found it.

"The Drug Enforcement Agency began raids in 2001 against patients using the drug and their caregivers in California, one of 11 states that legalized the use of marijuana for patients under a doctor's care. Among those arrested was Angel Raich, who has brain cancer, and Diane Monson, who grew cannabis in her garden to help alleviate chronic back pain."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/06/scotus.medical.marijuana/index.html

[Galteeth]

Please note that Bush was criticized (correctly) for doing the same thing: http://michaelthompson.org/liberty/index.php?o=20060724#20060724

These were cases of explicit restrictions (negative orders) by congress that were being ignored as oppossed to general directives (positive orders) that are arguably not being enforced.



By the way, this concept is related to the controversy ovr earmarking. Earmarks are specific directions for allocations of money. It was funny when people were on about banning earmarks, because it would have meant a dramatic expansion of executive power (the congress without earmarks could only appropriate funds to the execuive for general purposes, not give him specific directions.)

[mheslep]

I agree, and that's not what happened.I agree, and that's not what happened.What federal law makes it illegal to decline to prosecute drug users? A II, S 3 has something to say on the matter.

The federal law makes one subject to prosecution, but does not require a prosecutor to prosecute it. This is true of laws in general, they allow but don't require prosecution.There is indeed a requirement. The office requires that that care be taken to faithfully up hold the law. That noun and adjective are requirements, not options.

It is simply and obviously not a violation of any law for a prosecutor to decline to prosecute "individuals with cancer or other serious illnesses who use marijuana as part of a recommended treatment regimen".The prosecutor can move various enforcements down the the to-do list and comply w/ the requirement, he can not remove it. Cancer or serious illness, from the constitutional perspective, is utterly irrelevant.

[Hepth]

For the rest, are you saying you interpret from the memo that prosecutions for this crime will still occur under this policy, just not as many? Or do you read in it that no prosecutions will occur? I read that no prosecutions will occur.

After reading the memo a fourth time, just to make sure, I STILL read it as priority guidelines. The fact that he makes it clear that:

Of course, no State can authorize violations of federal law, and the list of factors above is not intended to describe exhaustively when a federal prosecution may be warranted.
Indeed, this memorandum does not alter in any way the Department’s authority to enforce federal law

This guidance regarding resource allocation does not “legalize” marijuana or provide a legal defense to a violation of federal law, nor is it intended to create any privileges, benefits, or rights, substantive or procedural, enforceable by any individual, party or witness in any administrative, civil, or criminal matter.

Nor does clear and unambiguous compliance with state law or the absence of one or all of the above factors create a legal defense to a violation of the Controlled Substances Act. Rather, this memorandum is intended solely as a guide to the exercise of investigative and prosecutorial discretion.

ANY violation is to still be upheld, just discretion and priority are to follow guidelines.
Though:
Your offices should continue to review marijuana cases for prosecution on a case-by-case basis

[Biophreak]

Marijuana use has yet to be correlated to accidental deaths in ways that hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin, or methyl-amphetamines have. Furthermore, alcohol-related deaths, accidents, property damage, and rape significantly outweigh the problems that arise from even excessive marijuana use.

By legalizing marijuana safety measures will be put in place which will markedly lower the potential negative effects of marijuana use- namely cancers. Can anyone tell me if they use a filter on their bong or blunts? Because I certainly never have. State-regulated marijuana use will almost definitely require that marijuanarettes (i should trademark that :-P) have filters.

Also, state-regulated marijuana will have to meet certain criteria for potency. Imagine never having to worry if you dime sack was garbage, or being able to go to the store and purchase varying strength marijuana. That would be amazing, in my opinion.

For all the haters- I'm fairly certain that Obama isn't trying to pass legislation DEMANDING the use of marijuana. You will still be free to abstain in the way that you do for cigarettes. Marijuana drug enforcement wastes untold amounts of tax-money that could be more responsibly allocated to preventing adolescents from getting involved in the traditionally 'hard drugs'.

Furthermore, teens and college students who are nabbed for their generally innocent use of marijuana have had their lives drastically changed. I have in the past had friends kicked out of college for repeat offenses against the marijuana policy. I know people who now have permanent records for possession of weed and have to write down on their job applications that they have a record because of 'drug charges' These students who were doing nothing to bother anyone else, were denied their chance to complete college for something as simple as smoking a few spliffs here and there. Personally, when I was in college, I found the raucous caused by drunken idiots to be FAR more distracting to me than the occasional pleasant whiff of weed.

Quit hating and move on. It's just weed. (and please, for everyone's sake, don't turn my, 'it's just weed' comment into a slippery slope argument, because that's just retarded.)

[lurflurf]

I think you missed my point. My point is that most people are making an issue of medical marijuana because they want to get high, not because they really care that much about medicines. If pot had a lot of medical uses but didn't make people high, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The moralizing is a smokescreen.

I think you missed my point. It does not matter if some medical marijuana advocates also favor recreational marijuna use as they are seperate issues to be judges on sperate merits. I am not convinced that "most" medical marijuana advocated want to get high, or that those that do are (dispite their vested interest) sincere in their support of medical use. Opponents of medical marijuna are at least as biased, many oppose recreational marijuna use. If recreational quemo therapy users existed they would likely favor quemo therapy being available to cancer patients, but they would not be wrong. Pot is illegal because (or under the pretext) that it makes people high. If pot did not make people high its opponents (likely fewer) would be using different arguments. The moralizing is a central issue.

[mheslep]

Marijuana use has yet to be correlated to accidental deaths in ways that hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin, or methyl-amphetamines ...That post irrelevant to the tread (and inflammatory) - its about enforcement policy, not the merits of the Controlled Substance Act.

[Hepth]

But the problem is, America has a tough time changing things.

Really I see no difference between marijuana for medical use and opiates for medicinal use. You can't argue that prescription drug abuse isn't rampant in our society (opiate) and that you can always find doctors willing to prescribe it without an issue.
But the fact of the matter is, we know it's use is beneficial to SOME, and as a people we deem it enough of a benefit to overlook the crazy abuse of opiates.
I don't see the difference with marijuana other than the fact that it was used recreationally BEFORE becoming a prescription drug, whereas opiates, though widely used in other forms, weren't pill form yet.

According to the US Depts of Health and H.Services:
From surveys, in 2002 (old data) 6.2 million americans admitted to abusing prescription painkillers (opiates), while marijuana "abuses" of the same type are upwards of 30 million if I'm not mistaken.

While the number for marijuana is 5 times greater, the danger of its use is minimal compared to prescription painkillers.


I guess my argument is, if we can over look a potentially fatal, highly addictive, easily accessible prescription medication as a result of its availability in medicinal use, then marijuana shouldn't pose much of a problem or raise much of an argument. That is, unless you have a personal feeling about marijuana in particular rather than the idea of drug use on a whole, which is obviously shortsighted.

Also, as a personal opinion, I hate when people try to justify an argument based on "If they do this, it just opens the door to that" which NEVER seems to be the case in this country. Every step in either direction is a giant struggle, which as often as not comes back and appeals the previous precedent.

[mheslep]

But the problem is, America has a tough time changing things....Often, yes. Maybe that's bad sometimes. So?

[russ_watters]

I agree, and that's not what happened.

I agree, and that's not what happened.
Asserting it over and over again does not make it true. You need to provide a logical argument with citations. The federal law makes one subject to prosecution, but does not require a prosecutor to prosecute it. This is true of laws in general, they allow but don't require prosecution. Again, this is patently false and I gave you a citation from a legal textbook that agrees: the executive does not have the authority to decline to enforce the laws it has been charged with enforcing.

You are making this up as you go along. I've provided a citation: now I'm demanding one of you.

[edit] I have let you weasel too far away from this issue. Weaseling about whether this is partial or total deprioritization isn't really all that critical here: what he did was place state law above federal law. You agree that that's what he did, right? Do you believe the President is entitled to place state law above federal law?

[russ_watters]

That's pretty much how I view this.


Thank you for that link.

But this Obama fella sure is peculiar.
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He actually keeps campaign promises. I always thought there was a rule against that. Well thank you very much! This says explicitly what I believed the memo implied! We have both dots, and I think it is perfectly logical to connect them: this was ordered by Obama in keeping with his campaign promise!

[russ_watters]

You are incorrect. The execution of law at the federal level is the responsibility of the executive. Barring a specific direction by congress, the manner in which the executive branch enforces laws is at the discretion of the executive in so long as he executes the laws faithfully. This is a a case of prioritizing enforcement. An analogous situation would be where congress declares a war. The president must execute the war, but the choice of targets and strategy are ulimately up to him.
You haven't read the entire thread, apparently. I discussed all of that and included a citation from a legal textbook confirming that the executive does not have the power to decline to enforce laws charged to it by Congress. He is not entitled to say 'that one's not worth my time to enforce'.

[Hepth]

Often, yes. Maybe that's bad sometimes. So?

I mean that, for those who were complaining that this is a "first step" for making marijuana as available as tylenol, that it is a huge leap in terms of freedoms where every step will be hindered by those opposing change in any direction. Just look at gay marriage, it seems to be a one step forward, two staps back dance. The same will happen with this, allowing for plenty of time for the public (aka lobbyists and congressmen) to decide what will and will not be allowed. Nothing is EVER a floodgate, where once opened everything is changed completely and to the extreme.

I was just using the trends of our government to null that argument.

[Hepth]

You haven't read the entire thread, apparently. I discussed all of that and included a citation from a legal textbook confirming that the executive does not have the power to decline to enforce laws charged to it by Congress. He is not entitled to say 'that one's not worth my time to enforce'.

But is he entitled to make a suggestion of priorities?

[russ_watters]

I responded to part of this before, but....If you read the memo it comes across as more of a sheriff telling his deputy not to watch crosswalks for jaywalkers all day, but to rather work on higher priority crimes.....

"Of course, no State can authorize violations of federal law, and the list of factors above is not intended to describe exhaustively when a federal prosecution may be warranted. "

Which is obvious he's not intending to NOT prosecute them...

EDIT:

For those that are arguing for or against what this memo said, without having actually, fully read it, please take the time to do so. Don't go on what the media is reporting from either side.
http://blogs.usdoj.gov/blog/archives/192 Thank you for posting the entire link. I see the quote you refer to in the memo. I also see this: As a general matter, pursuit of these priorities should not focus federal resources in your States on individuals whose actions are in clear and unambiguous compliance with existing state laws providing for the medical use of marijuana. So my question is, if this is really about prioritizing federal resources, why does it matter what state law says? Will a cancer patient in Pennsylvania be prosecuted because Pennsylvania doesn't have a medicinal marijuana law? That's how the memo reads. If cancer patients who smoke pot really aren't worthy of the attention of federal prosecutors, then it shouldn't matter that PA has no medicinal marijuana law - they shouldn't be prosecuted. Setting up the enforcement different in different states means that the federal government is applying the law differently in different states, ceding their responsibility to enforce federal law in situations where federal law conflicts with state law*. I believe we once had a civil war over that very issue.

The statements of general principle in the memo are at odds with the actual wording/intent of the policy.

*And why is this being done? It is being done because Obama doesn't agree with the Federal law regarding medicinal marijuana and is nullifying it by choosing not to enforce it where he thinks he can get away with it. Based on the Youtube quote with his answer to the question, I don't think there can be any question as to Obama's motivation here. He doesn't like the law, so he's nullifying it.

[russ_watters]

But is he entitled to make a suggestion of priorities? I believe mhselp put it best: he is entitled to rearrange the list of priorities, but he's not allowed to remove anything from the list.

[separate post]After reading the memo a fourth time, just to make sure, I STILL read it as priority guidelines. Ok, you've responded to the parts of the memo that agree with your position: could you please respond to the parts that don't? Could you please respond to the quotes where it says "prioritization" means dropping an entire class of defendants in states where state law conflicts with federal law? I quoted it above, here it is again: As a general matter, pursuit of these priorities should not focus federal resources in your States on individuals whose actions are in clear and unambiguous compliance with existing state laws providing for the medical use of marijuana. Just to make sure we are both reading that the same way: do you agree that it says not to prosecute any violators of federal law where state law conflicts with federal law on the subject?

[Galteeth]

I responded to part of this before, but.... Thank you for posting the entire link. I see the quote you refer to in the memo. I also see this: So my question is, if this is really about prioritizing federal resources, why does it matter what state law says? Will a cancer patient in Pennsylvania be prosecuted because Pennsylvania doesn't have a medicinal marijuana law? That's how the memo reads. If cancer patients who smoke pot really aren't worthy of the attention of federal prosecutors, then it shouldn't matter that PA has no medicinal marijuana law - they shouldn't be prosecuted. Setting up the enforcement different in different states means that the federal government is applying the law differently in different states, ceding their responsibility to enforce federal law in situations where federal law conflicts with state law*. I believe we once had a civil war over that very issue.

The statements of general principle in the memo are at odds with the actual wording/intent of the policy.

*And why is this being done? It is being done because Obama doesn't agree with the Federal law regarding medicinal marijuana and is nullifying it by choosing not to enforce it where he thinks he can get away with it. Based on the Youtube quote with his answer to the question, I don't think there can be any question as to Obama's motivation here. He doesn't like the law, so he's nullifying it.

In PA there are not large growing operations in the open.

[Hepth]

Just to make sure we are both reading that the same way: do you agree that it says not to prosecute any violators of federal law where state law conflicts with federal law on the subject?

Maybe I just read it different than you. From your quote, when I read:
"...pursuit of these priorities should not focus ..."

I read "should not focus" as "should not take a high percentage of time/manpower" not "should not pursue" or "ignore".

Isn't that how "focus" should be treated? I know this is semantics, but law is semantics. When I say "don't focus on this" I don't mean "ignore this", I mean, "don't devote a lot of thought to it".

This is why we have so many problems with interpretation of law, everyone reads it differently :)

Oh, and just to be clear, I'm trying not to cherrypick this memo for things that you say support "my position". I'm under the firm belief, as I think I stated earlier, that LAW is LAW and it applies today and should be enforced TODAY. I DEFINITELY think its ok to prosecute these people. I just think that either Obama, the deputy AG, or the AG has the right to make suggestions and prioritize the efforts of the federal drug wars.

People by now should know that medicinal marijuana, while approved by some states is still federally illegal, and they are choosing to violate that law, and thus should be prosecuted accordingly.

[lisab]

Maybe I just read it different than you. From your quote, when I read:
"...pursuit of these priorities should not focus ..."

I read "should not focus" as "should not take a high percentage of time/manpower" not "should not pursue" or "ignore".

Isn't that how "focus" should be treated? I know this is semantics, but law is semantics. When I say "don't focus on this" I don't mean "ignore this", I mean, "don't devote a lot of thought to it".

This is why we have so many problems with interpretation of law, everyone reads it differently :)

Oh, and just to be clear, I'm trying not to cherrypick this memo for things that you say support "my position". I'm under the firm belief, as I think I stated earlier, that LAW is LAW and it applies today and should be enforced TODAY. I DEFINITELY think its ok to prosecute these people. I just think that either Obama, the deputy AG, or the AG has the right to make suggestions and prioritize the efforts of the federal drug wars.

People by now should know that medicinal marijuana, while approved by some states is still federally illegal, and they are choosing to violate that law, and thus should be prosecuted accordingly.

Good points, Hepth.

Law enforcement is not a black-or-white issue. There are judgments made at each level, straight down to the beat cop.

For example, everyone knows that the speed limit is not really the speed limit. Even the most law-and-order citizen would raise holy hell if he got a speeding ticket for being just 1 mph over the limit.

[Al68]

You need to provide a logical argument with citations. Again, this is patently false and I gave you a citation from a legal textbook that agrees: the executive does not have the authority to decline to enforce the laws it has been charged with enforcing."Unconstitutional" means violating the constitution, not some lawyer's opinion. The text you referenced is just someone's opinion. "Appeal to authority" is just a logical fallacy, not evidence. All you provided is evidence of the author's opinion, which I have no reason to be interested in. You just proved that someone agrees with you. Is that the standard for substantiating claims? Providing evidence that someone else agrees with the claim? That would explain a lot.You are making this up as you go along. I've provided a citation: now I'm demanding one of you.Demand or not, I will never use any source other than the U.S. Constitution itself for the purpose of determining if something violates it. Why would anyone capable of thinking for themselves?

Using the constitution as the sole source for determining what the constitution says is "making it up as I go along"? Seriously?[edit] I have let you weasel too far away from this issue. Weaseling about whether this is partial or total deprioritization isn't really all that critical here:Nice ad hominem attacks.Do you believe the President is entitled to place state law above federal law?The constitution determines whether federal law or state law has jurisdiction, not Obama. If federal law has jurisdiction, the President has the power to enforce it, and decide whether or not to prosecute any particular case. The concept of prosecutorial discretion is not a new one, and federal law simply does not require every violation to be prosecuted.

Why don't you cite the federal law that requires a federal prosecutor to prosecute someone for smoking marijuana?

[OmCheeto]

Good points, Hepth.

Law enforcement is not a black-or-white issue. There are judgments made at each level, straight down to the beat cop.

For example, everyone knows that the speed limit is not really the speed limit. Even the most law-and-order citizen would raise holy hell if he got a speeding ticket for being just 1 mph over the limit.


I was researching "legal precedent" the other day and ran across this quote:

Blackstone says, that a former decision is in general to be followed unless "manifestly absurd or unjust," and, in the latter case, it is declared when overruled not that the former sentence was bad law, but that it was not law.

Does anyone remember the 18th and (hic:wink:) 21st amendments to the Constitution?

When laws are just fads, who cares?

[mbrmbrg]

So my question is, if this is really about prioritizing federal resources, why does it matter what state law says? Will a cancer patient in Pennsylvania be prosecuted because Pennsylvania doesn't have a medicinal marijuana law? That's how the memo reads. If cancer patients who smoke pot really aren't worthy of the attention of federal prosecutors, then it shouldn't matter that PA has no medicinal marijuana law - they shouldn't be prosecuted. Setting up the enforcement different in different states means that the federal government is applying the law differently in different states, ceding their responsibility to enforce federal law in situations where federal law conflicts with state law. I believe we once had a civil war over that very issue.


The memo never actually says why going after medicinal marijuana users is not an efficient use of federal resources. However, it seems to imply that the main inefficiency is the inevitable argument with the state, rather than the tears of the ill.

And yes, stating that arguing with state laws in inefficient does seem to be sliding back toward the build-up to the civil war. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. The civil war was absolutely necessary, because slavery had to be ended. However, I am uncomfortable with the generalized outcome that the federal government (nearly?) always trumps the state government. The fewer people governed by governments, the easier it is for the government to actually reflect the will of the people. So yeah, I like the idea of giving more power to the state governments, even if some of the steps along the way are a little shady.

Also, Ogden clearly limits his directive to the very bottom of the supply chain: the (medicinal) user and his immediate supplier. According to Ogden, growers/large distributors should still be prosecuted if there's any reason to suspect that they're not 100% medicinal.

[mbrmbrg]

Rather off-topic, but FYI:

...The pill [Marinol] didn't work, but the brownies did. So was it a dosage issue or does the pill just not work for what it is supposed to do?

Different people react differently to Marinol. Some people can get slightly high on it; for others it has absolutely no effect, regardless of dosage.

[russ_watters]

The memo never actually says why going after medicinal marijuana users is not an efficient use of federal resources. However, it seems to imply that the main inefficiency is the inevitable argument with the state, rather than the tears of the ill. Ahh, that's a good possibility. So is that a legally acceptable position for the federal government to take? I would think not!
And yes, stating that arguing with state laws in inefficient does seem to be sliding back toward the build-up to the civil war. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. The civil war was absolutely necessary, because slavery had to be ended. Um - you're going backwards here. Or are you saying that medical pot is a big enough issue that we should be digressing toward civil war over it? Me, personally - I think once the issue of states rights was settled, the federal government shouldn't be allowing it to rear its head again. As I said before, this isn't just about pot to me. Once the federal government starts letting the states peck away, they are going to keep pecking away until they hit something big.

[turbo-1]

Me, personally - I think once the issue of states rights was settled, the federal government shouldn't be allowing it to rear its head again."States rights" has never been settled. I grew up in the 60's when the "states rights" argument was used to defend the suppression of civil rights, support the extension of "separate but equal" laws, and defend the imposition of poll taxes and "literacy requirements" to deny some groups the right to vote. Short memory? "States rights" has been a darling cause of bigots for decades. Now that some states want to ease regulations on the use of marijuana for medical conditions and allow same-sex marriage, the right demonizes "states rights" as if somehow the rational application of democracy in pursuit of the public good might cause our country to collapse into moral degeneracy.

[mbrmbrg]

Ahh, that's a good possibility. So is that a legally acceptable position for the federal government to take? I would think not!

I didn't say it was legally acceptable: I said that the issue addressed by the memo is wrangling with individual states.

Um - you're going backwards here. Or are you saying that medical pot is a big enough issue that we should be digressing toward civil war over it?

Nope, I was unclear. My reference to slavery was more of an aside, mulling that smashing states rights in the 1860's (and again in the 1960's, as Turbo pointed out) was absolutely necessary. However, that doesn't mean that I at all like the precedent of the federal government always trumping the state government.

Me, personally - I think once the issue of states rights was settled, the federal government shouldn't be allowing it to rear its head again. As I said before, this isn't just about pot to me. Once the federal government starts letting the states peck away, they are going to keep pecking away until they hit something big.

Aaaaahhh, but I like small governments, because they're theoretically more accountable to the people.

[Al68]

Me, personally - I think once the issue of states rights was settled, the federal government shouldn't be allowing it to rear its head again."States rights" has never been settled. I grew up in the 60's when the "states rights" argument was used to defend the suppression of civil rights, support the extension of "separate but equal" laws, and defend the imposition of poll taxes and "literacy requirements" to deny some groups the right to vote.Of course the issue isn't settled in that sense, the issue settled is that the federal government has the legitimate authority to protect individual civil rights from infringements by a state, which is authorized by the constitution.

The issue of federalism, ie all undelegated powers reserved to the states, is only settled on paper (the constitution), not in practice. In practice, congress routinely exercises power it doesn't legitimately have, and the Supreme Court too often is too corrupt to stop it when they have the chance.

But "state rights" is an absurd phrase, since neither the federal government or any state has any "rights" according to the constitution, they have certain legitimate powers.

[russ_watters]

"States rights" has never been settled. Yeah, it really has.... I grew up in the 60's when the "states rights" argument was used to defend the suppression of civil rights, support the extension of "separate but equal" laws, and defend the imposition of poll taxes and "literacy requirements" to deny some groups the right to vote. Short memory? It was used - but not successfully! That's the point! It is not a legally viable position. When the federal government decided to get its act together and fix the civil rights problem, the "states rights" argument didn't prevent it. "States rights" has been a darling cause of bigots for decades. Centuries! I agree - it seems to me that most of the time when we see "states rights" based arguments, it is a smokescreen for a state wanting to do something they shouldn't - whether "states rights" existed or not. I mentioned in another thread that there are other recourses when the federal government does something it shouldn't, such as suing them (as CA has done in other cases). If the law is wrong (or the government is applying it wrong), they challenge the law. If the law is right, but the state still doesn't want to follow it, they argue "states rights" instead of actually addressing the "correctness" of the law.

[Al68]

If the law is right, but the state still doesn't want to follow it, they argue "states rights" instead of actually addressing the "correctness" of the law.Can you give an example of this? I was under the impression that "states rights" normally referred to claims that a federal law was invalid ("not correct", "wrong") due to the tenth amendment.

The Supreme Court has overturned many laws based on that argument in recent years.

Does "states rights" refer to something else?

[russ_watters]

Can you give an example of this? I was under the impression that "states rights" normally referred to claims that a federal law was invalid ("not correct", "wrong") due to the tenth amendment.

The Supreme Court has overturned many laws based on that argument in recent years.

Does "states rights" refer to something else? Sorry, I'm not interested in arguing with someone who rejects substantiation out of hand and never substantiates their own arguments. It's pointless.

[Al68]

Sorry, I'm not interested in arguing with someone who rejects substantiation out of hand and never substantiates their own arguments. It's pointless.OK. Maybe someone else will answer. BTW, forum rules can be found here: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=113181. :!!)

Also BTW, I wouldn't call it "out of hand" to reject "substantiation" that consists solely of the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority" by using evidence that someone else agrees as "substantiation", unless the claim itself is only that others agree.

And forum rules require substantiation only for factual claims in support of an argument, not for "arguments" themselves, and certainly not for the purpose of showing that others agree with the argument.