What ya' think of Lady Gaga in meat?

[jackmell]

You guys weren't interested in Lady Gaga this week on Vogue? What do you guys think about it? I gotta' definite opinion about it but would like to know what some of you think first. Just finished listening to "Telephone". I like lots of the songs she sings.

[turbo]

I don't think of her at all. IMO, she is vacuous and untalented, and tries to make an entire career out of oddness. It was OK when Elton John dressed outrageously, wore goofy glasses and hats, etc, because he really had the chops (piano and vocals) to back it up. She doesn't.

[Pengwuino]

What the hell is a 'gaga'?

[jackmell]

Ok, I think you guys are gonna' be mean on me so lemme' me get in my opinion right now:

I think she looks very sexy in that pose. The meat it mostly of a psychological effect. It's not dripping blood and horrific but rather dry-like and hard to even notice it's meat. Don't get me wrong, I think Lady Gaga has some really quality meat on her, and I really like her pose and the expression on her face. :)

[turbo]

...and the expression on her face. :)You mean that constant trout-pout grimace? Yuck!

[waht]

I'm not into her work at all, but I know that she's able to captivate millions of people.

So that makes her a successful artist:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Gaga

Gaga was ranked the 73rd Artist of the 2000–10 decade by Billboard.[1] As of August 2010, Gaga has sold more than 15 million albums and 51 million singles worldwide.[2][3] In May 2010, Time magazine included Gaga in its annual Time 100 list of the most influential people in the world. In June 2010, Forbes listed Gaga fourth on its list of the 100 Most Powerful and Influential celebrities in the world; she is also ranked as the second most powerful musician in the world.[4][5]

[leroyjenkens]

Gaga was ranked the 73rd Artist of the 2000–10 decade by Billboard.[1] As of August 2010, Gaga has sold more than 15 million albums and 51 million singles worldwide.[2][3] In May 2010, Time magazine included Gaga in its annual Time 100 list of the most influential people in the world. In June 2010, Forbes listed Gaga fourth on its list of the 100 Most Powerful and Influential celebrities in the world; she is also ranked as the second most powerful musician in the world.
She's POWERFUL, INFLUENTIAL and she captivates MILLIONS of people around the WORLD!!!!!
What does she do? She sings songs.

I don't get it.

[Hurkyl]

At least she's not wearing fur. That would be unethical!

[waht]

She's POWERFUL, INFLUENTIAL and she captivates MILLIONS of people around the WORLD!!!!!
What does she do? She sings songs.

I don't get it.

Perhaps this will put things in more perspective:

p3aQRzAOy7Y

[Pengwuino]

Perhaps this will put things in more perspective:

Oh, I get it. She and her fans are mentally disturbed.

[Proton Soup]

i grok spoiled meat. Jem has more talent and isn't skanky.

[Ivan Seeking]

What the hell is a 'gaga'?

slightly mad, typically as a result of old age, infatuation, or excessive enthusiasm
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gaga?view=uk

So it must be referring to her old age.

[Astronuc]

You guys weren't interested in Lady Gaga this week on Vogue? What do you guys think about it? Not much to think about.

In response to the question. :zzz:

[Greg Bernhardt]

She makes some great club hits and that is the music scene at the moment.

[Astronuc]

She makes some great club hits and that is the music scene at the moment. One more reason to avoid such places - that and guys who move too much - and loud people. :biggrin:

[jackmell]

You guys are kinda' gettin' off topic and just raggin' on her and not the picture. But that's ok if it's my thread and the mods don't mind. Really, I'm referring to her looks, the fashion statement, the pose, her sex-appeal, and of course the meat she has on her and the fact it's Vogue and not Playboy.

I believe she would have looked nicer in a red-laced negligee that looked similar to the meat but she's extreme-fashion and wanted to do something off the scale I think.

[rootX]

her sex-appeal

none.

[Astronuc]

You guys are kinda' gettin' off topic and just raggin' on her and not the picture. But that's ok if it's my thread and the mods don't mind. Really, I'm referring to her looks, the fashion statement, the pose, her sex-appeal, and of course the meat she has on her and the fact it's Vogue and not Playboy. It's like so many other similar pictures.

She wear too much make up IMO. Maybe if I was 30 years younger I might find her more appealing.

I think most 'fashion statements' are silly, and most runway models look ill and not very attractive.

I prefer old-fashioned and simple elegance, not flashy.

[nucleargirl]

It would be more interesting if she was eating the meat... raw
posing in meat is not really new... so I dont really get it - its not new or interesting and so not really fashion... for me anyway.
its kind of saying: I am meat, and I am wearing meat! ? its kinda gross - she's wearing another animal's body on her body... but one is dead and the other is alive... hm so kinda arty!
She's not really sexy tho, and the meat doesnt help...
would be more interesting if she was wearing octopus! that would be more hot!

[bp_psy]

I'm referring to her looks, the fashion statement, the pose, her sex-appeal, and of course the meat she has on her and the fact it's Vogue and not Playboy.
Any sane person above 14 automatically fails to give a crap about some pop star's irrelevant attention whoring.:wink:

[Ivan Seeking]

It's like so many other similar pictures.

She wear too much make up IMO. Maybe if I was 30 years younger I might find her more appealing.

I think most 'fashion statements' are silly, and most runway models look ill and not very attractive.

I prefer old-fashioned and simple elegance, not flashy.

This isn't about fashion, it is about provocativeness and showmanship. Going back to Turbo's post about Elton John, I liked him in spite of his circus act, but I guess it takes a circus act to stand out, even when you're as good as Elton.

I don't know the first thing about her music or talent, so I can't comment on that part.

[Greg Bernhardt]

I don't know the first thing about her music or talent, so I can't comment on that part.

She actually has some talent.

NM51qOpwcIM

[Pengwuino]

This isn't about fashion, it is about provocativeness and showmanship. Going back to Turbo's post about Elton John, I liked him in spite of his circus act, but I guess it takes a circus act to stand out, even when you're as good as Elton.


and in her case, what provocativeness?

[cronxeh]

She actually has some talent.

NM51qOpwcIM

You know whats funny.. she is so much more attractive and better sounding in that video and style.. Like a better version of Alicia Keys

[jackmell]

its kinda gross -

Why is is gross? It's not dripping red and smeared all over her face and stuff. Rather it was carefully placed on her body, or previously removed of all fluid, so as not to smear. Didn't you guys notice how it's so "cleanly" and stylishly placed on her body? I'm beginnin' to think you guys don't understand big business.

That's a sexy pose.

[Pengwuino]

Why is is gross? It's not dripping red and smeared all over her face and stuff. Rather it was carefully placed on her body, or previously removed of all fluid, so as not to smear. Didn't you guys notice how it's so "cleanly" and stylishly placed on her body? I'm beginnin' to think you guys don't understand big business.

That's a sexy pose.

How does putting meat on your body get associated with "big business"? It's not sexy. If she draped a bunch of bananas over her body, it wouldn't be sexy either.

[daniel_i_l]

What the hell is a 'gaga'?

I'm pretty sure that it's a reference to the Radio Gaga radio station. (The same station that's referenced by the Queen song of that name)

[nucleargirl]

Why is is gross?

its gross cos its a dead animal on her... like wearing a carcass... thats kinda gross :p
its not the way its draped or her pose, its the fact of what it is.

[Proton Soup]

It would be more interesting if she was eating the meat... raw
posing in meat is not really new... so I dont really get it - its not new or interesting and so not really fashion... for me anyway.
its kind of saying: I am meat, and I am wearing meat! ? its kinda gross - she's wearing another animal's body on her body... but one is dead and the other is alive... hm so kinda arty!
She's not really sexy tho, and the meat doesnt help...
would be more interesting if she was wearing octopus! that would be more hot!

this. unoriginal. although, she does seem to have some obsession with things related to blood.

but what i think it's really all about is money. and what i mean by that is, she's fairly unattractive. making a career out of being a sex symbol like madonna was never an option. so what choice did she have but to go weird ? even the apparent blood obsession is probably a contrived appeal to her target demographic.

[jackmell]

this. unoriginal. although, she does seem to have some obsession with things related to blood.

but what i think it's really all about is money. and what i mean by that is, she's fairly unattractive. making a career out of being a sex symbol like madonna was never an option. so what choice did she have but to go weird ? even the apparent blood obsession is probably a contrived appeal to her target demographic.

Yeah, I agree she's not very attractive although I've seen pictures where she appears to look quite attractive like the photo below. That's something if I was 20-something, I'd be interested in at a club. And I do believe she does this extreme-fashion to take away from her face. However, I personally think she looks quite attractive and hot in that Vogue picture, the meat, well, how about BBQ?

[JaredJames]

Just skimmed through this article where she gives some comments; http://www.celebitchy.com/107047/lady_gaga_you_wont_ever_catch_me_in_sweatpants_and _a_hoodie/ and she admits "Everything I do is about getting a reaction."

Personally don't find her music too bad, but her music videos and shows are getting a little out of hand. Yes I agree, she certainly has a thing about blood and killing people.

EDIT: in her original stuff she's quite good looking, now she's overkill with costumes and makeup.

[Math Is Hard]

I think she should wear a bacon wrap. Guys love bacon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Ts4TtEwDc).

[turbo]

I think she should wear a bacon wrap. Guys love bacon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Ts4TtEwDc).Mmmm! MIH needs an LED-illuminated bacon-coated hoop!

[jackmell]

I think she should wear a bacon wrap.

I'm afraid bacon is just not meaty enough for Ms. Superstar. I mean bacon to me would come across as cheap meat but Ms. Gaga is probably wearing thinly-sliced filet Mignon. She's a classy chick with quality meat. That's what the image is telling me.

[Evo]

I'm afraid bacon is just not meaty enough for Ms. Superstar. I mean bacon to me would come across as cheap meat but Ms. Gaga is probably wearing thinly-sliced filet Mignon. She's a classy chick with quality meat. That's what the image is telling me.Classy? Tacky & gimmicky come to mind. But tacky and gimmicky sells to kids. She made a risky move and it paid off for her big time.

[Astronuc]

She's musically talented. She should stick that and the presentation in the video Greg posted.

She doesn't need to be tacky or scantily clad unless she wants to appeal to people who go for scantily clad or tacky, which appears to be the case.

I mean bacon to me would come across as cheap meat but Ms. Gaga is probably wearing thinly-sliced filet Mignon. She's a classy chick with quality meat. :rolleyes:

[lisab]

I don't follow pop culture, in fact I only recently learned of this artist, but I think she's aiming to be the next Madonna. I suppose there's nothing wrong with that. Lots of people leave behind the things they really love to follow the money - usually we call these people "lawyers" or "CEOs".

[zomgwtf]

I don't think of her at all. IMO, she is vacuous and untalented, and tries to make an entire career out of oddness. It was OK when Elton John dressed outrageously, wore goofy glasses and hats, etc, because he really had the chops (piano and vocals) to back it up. She doesn't.

Lady gaga is very talented. She can play piano and sing very well... I have no clue what you're going on about.

She does stuff to be provocative and grab attention, she just likes being weird and strives on being unique, so what? I don't find her particularly attractive but that's just me.

As well most of the clothing she wears is particularly to promote specific fashion artists, it's not like she designs her own damn clothes, get real.

[Cyrus]

Lady gaga is very talented. She can play piano and sing very well... I have no clue what you're going on about.

She does stuff to be provocative and grab attention, she just likes being weird and strives on being unique, so what? I don't find her particularly attractive but that's just me.

As well most of the clothing she wears is particularly to promote specific fashion artists, it's not like she designs her own damn clothes, get real.

+1

text

[Math Is Hard]

i grok spoiled meat. Jem has more talent and isn't skanky.

I guess I must agree somewhat since I have 1 Lady Gaga song on my iPod, but 8 by Jem. Although I do have a Gaga ring tone so that might even the score a little. :)

[DaveC426913]

She is insane! Bodysurfing on her fans? Seems to me she's lucky she didn't get torn limb from boob and sold by the part on ebay.

[cronxeh]

She is insane! Bodysurfing on her fans? Seems to me she's lucky she didn't get torn limb from boob and sold by the part on ebay.

:rofl:

You sir, are insane in the membrane

[jackmell]

Well what da' ya' expect the women in here to say? They're jealous of her. That's how women are. I mean if Ms. Evo post a nice picture of her daughter, they're all full of praise, pretty this and pretty that, but they're jealous of her too, just won't say anything cus' she's the queen bee in here, and they all what, her sister bees I guess, and that lil' Ms. NuclearGir is just like them from what I read.

But the guys in here, well I'm disappointed in them. Personally I think most of the guys in here think that's a hot picture but they just wanna' take the high-road and not fess up their true feelings. Private though, I think a good percentage of men would eat her meat raw right off her body. Might be Kobe beef sides since it's a Japan issue of the mag.

[rootX]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11280730

After being presented with her final award, Lady Gaga, wearing an outfit which appeared to be made of meat, revealed that her new album would be called Born This Way before singing part of its title song.

[rootX]

Well what da' ya' expect the women in here to say? They're jealous of her. That's how women are. I mean if Ms. Evo post a nice picture of her daughter, they're all full of praise, pretty this and pretty that, but they're jealous of her too, just won't say anything cus' she's the queen bee in here, and they all what, her sister bees I guess, and that lil' Ms. NuclearGir is just like them from what I read.

But the guys in here, well I'm disappointed in them. Personally I think most of the guys in here think that's a hot picture but they just wanna' take the high-road and not fess up their true feelings. Private though, I think a good percentage of men would eat her meat raw right off her body. Might be Kobe beef sides since it's a Japan issue of the mag.

:uhh: :rofl:

Personally, I find this the best picture ever! Lady Gaga is not as appealing.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517FtnrJBeL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

[mugaliens]

IMO, she is vacuous...

Possibly. Possibly not. I've never had the opportunity to get to know her, so I can't say one way or the other. Do you know her personally? If not, how could you make such a judgement call from a distance, from seeing an interview or two?

...and untalented...

Hardly. One does not rise to the top of the charts and make millions of dollars by being "untalented."

So, +2, zomgwtf.

[nucleargirl]

Well what da' ya' expect the women in here to say? They're jealous of her.


not jealous :) though I wish I had her ability to pull herself out of a bad situation and her determination! She works hard and she can really sing so she deserves to be so successful. I guess she just enjoys wearing meat...

[jackmell]

she can really sing

Gee, is that another way of sayin', "I really like her music and love dancing to it but I don't wanna' agree with Jack about nothin' cus' that won't get me no points with ma' sister bees?"

[Norman]

My understanding of her is that she views herself as a performance artist and that everything she does in public she considers part of her art (music, acting, costuming, clothing design, etc). I dislike her music in general (not a fan of pop music in general), but I envy the way she takes her art to the extreme. I know it is not new, but to go all out and commit in that way is quite brave in my opinion.

Concerning this photo - I think the obvious interpretation is that posing, scantily clad, on the front of a magazine is presenting oneself as "meat," and then draping herself in meat is an acknowledgment and statement about being viewed only as meat. Just the obvious guess.

[nucleargirl]

Gee, is that another way of sayin', "I really like her music and love dancing to it but I don't wanna' agree with Jack about nothin' cus' that won't get me no points with ma' sister bees?"

This bee analogy doesnt really work in this context I dont think!

[nismaratwork]

She's said she'd rather be famous than anything else; that fame gives her a reason to live. Whatever the message, it's clear that she's someone who wants fame more than pretty much anything, including money, although that's coming with fame. The rest, including the symbolism of any given outfit or statement is therefore meaningless except as a means to advance her essential goal.

Personally, as long as her songs are catchy, I'm happy; when they stop being fun, I'll forget her. Really, no one without a financial stake in her career should feel personally invested in anything she does, and that goes for any celebrity. She wore meat... she got press... victory... it's that simple.

[turbo]

Has anybody here watched the video that Greg linked? I was unable to watch all the way through - it was that bad. She is a lounge act, and not a very good one, at that. Her success arises from her flamboyance and marketing, not from her musical artistry. Liberace was flamboyant, but he was a monster on piano. My father was a homophobic mill-worker when Liberace was hot, and he'd always shush us kids during Liberace's Ed Sullivan appearances. Elton John was/is flamboyant, but he is a consummate song-writer (both as lyricist and composer) and performer. Lots of his hits are still getting regular air-play decades after charting. 5 years from now, people will say "Lady Who?" and will be hard pressed to recall any of her lyrics. Novelty acts soon disappear in the absence of real talent.

[nismaratwork]

Has anybody here watched the video that Greg linked? I was unable to watch all the way through - it was that bad. She is a lounge act, and not a very good one, at that. Her success arises from her flamboyance and marketing, not from her musical artistry. Liberace was flamboyant, but he was a monster on piano. My father was a homophobic mill-worker when Liberace was hot, and he'd always shush us kids during Liberace's Ed Sullivan appearances. Elton John was/is flamboyant, but he is a consummate song-writer (both as lyricist and composer) and performer. Lots of his hits are still getting regular air-play decades after charting. 5 years from now, people will say "Lady Who?" and will be hard pressed to recall any of her lyrics. Novelty acts soon disappear in the absence of real talent.

True... she's enjoyable (for me) in a short interval, and for a handful of songs. Her act is not a factor, nor is her image. As you say, she'll be gone eventually and with minimal impact. It's not reason to dislike her now, but it's also no reason to consider why she wears mirrors, or meat.

[zomgwtf]

Has anybody here watched the video that Greg linked? I was unable to watch all the way through - it was that bad. She is a lounge act, and not a very good one, at that. Her success arises from her flamboyance and marketing, not from her musical artistry. Liberace was flamboyant, but he was a monster on piano. My father was a homophobic mill-worker when Liberace was hot, and he'd always shush us kids during Liberace's Ed Sullivan appearances. Elton John was/is flamboyant, but he is a consummate song-writer (both as lyricist and composer) and performer. Lots of his hits are still getting regular air-play decades after charting. 5 years from now, people will say "Lady Who?" and will be hard pressed to recall any of her lyrics. Novelty acts soon disappear in the absence of real talent.

Turbo, I'm just gonna have to say this: You're full of ****.

This seems more of an attempt at apologetics at your first post.

First, it's a lot harder to make it big in the modern music industry. There are so many people using so many different avenues. I am hard pressed to think that if Elton John was playing in a pub now days he'd be noticed at all and be able to rise to fame receiving all his recognition.

Next up you're acting as though 'if you like Elton John songs YOU CAN'T LIKE LADY GAGA LAWLL' this is just stupid. Like really? Who the **** cares how popular Elton John is and how much airtime he gets on the radio. He's been around longer than lady gaga has been alive. She debuted in 2008 and is one of the most influential and powerful celebrities alive. That's after 2 years.

If she disappears in 5 years it's going to be because she chose to, not because her popularity slid.

[cronxeh]

Im going to have to agree she did rather great in that video Greg posted, and is like to come up with some great material in the future. I just cant stand her music videos

[Dembadon]

I haven't bothered to look her up. I've only just recently even heard of her existence, and the few T.V. programs I watch don't cover pop culture.

When I saw the clip of her crowd-surfing, I felt embarrassed for her. I agree with Norman; wearing the meat is symbolic, but I don't think that was in question. She's chosen to express herself loudly. To each his/her own.

[turbo]

Turbo, I'm just gonna have to say this: You're full of ****.I have devoted large portions of the last ~45 years of my life studying, learning, and performing music (professionally, though generally as a side-line). In fact, I spent several years hosting open-mic jams at taverns every weekend, and drew lots of talent from the music school at the U of M Augusta. Lots of those students were scary-good! I think I'm a pretty good judge of musical talent, as opposed to marketing glitz. I'm glad that you are impressed by her and can enjoy her performances - but we have very different standards, apparently.

[nismaratwork]

Turbo, I'm just gonna have to say this: You're full of ****.

This seems more of an attempt at apologetics at your first post.

First, it's a lot harder to make it big in the modern music industry. There are so many people using so many different avenues. I am hard pressed to think that if Elton John was playing in a pub now days he'd be noticed at all and be able to rise to fame receiving all his recognition.

Next up you're acting as though 'if you like Elton John songs YOU CAN'T LIKE LADY GAGA LAWLL' this is just stupid. Like really? Who the **** cares how popular Elton John is and how much airtime he gets on the radio. He's been around longer than lady gaga has been alive. She debuted in 2008 and is one of the most influential and powerful celebrities alive. That's after 2 years.

If she disappears in 5 years it's going to be because she chose to, not because her popularity slid.

OK, now lets be clear, I've already stated that I like a handful of her songs (better than most artists these days). I agree that the music industry is brutal, but I don't see how she can keep herself "new" and shocking for 5 more years man. Maybe she can, but like Madonna it would be the exception, not the rule. As hard as it is to break into the business, it's harder to stay relevant. If she's gone in 5 years, it'll be because that's how the music industry works: eat, chew, spit... not because she chooses to. She's made quite a few statements about rather being dead than be anything short of famous. Maybe it's part of her persona, but I really get the sense that what you see is a lot of what you get; she's really into her idea of fashion, and loves the spotlight. People like that tend to burn-out.

I've also heard her concerts, and without studio work her voice is pretty rough... she's not going to be marketing her immense talent for singing unaided once the glamor is gone. We'll see, but I think saying turbo-1 is full of **** is a bit much given what he's said.

[Cyrus]

I have devoted large portions of the last ~45 years of my life studying, learning, and performing music (professionally, though generally as a side-line). In fact, I spent several years hosting open-mic jams at taverns every weekend, and drew lots of talent from the music school at the U of M Augusta. Lots of those students were scary-good! I think I'm a pretty good judge of musical talent, as opposed to marketing glitz. I'm glad that you are impressed by her and can enjoy her performances - but we have very different standards, apparently.

Your musical arrogance is astounding.

laIr_d0hFB8

oP8SrlbpJ5A&feature=related

You're clearly not a good judge of musical talent.

[hypatia]

I saw her in concert a few weeks ago. She did put on a great stage show, and I did enjoy some of her music. I can't say I'm a fan of most of her music and I can say the same thing about 80% of the performers I have seen in the past decade.

[nucleargirl]

I like those 2 live videos! its catchy, its happy, its new. whats with the musical snobbery? She can sing! a lot better than other pop acts anyway. clearly she's divisive, thats a good thing! its what makes art interesting.

[nismaratwork]

I like those 2 live videos! its catchy, its happy, its new. whats with the musical snobbery? She can sing! a lot better than other pop acts anyway. clearly she's divisive, thats a good thing! its what makes art interesting.

This is what I don't understand... I like some of her songs, and I enjoyed the Poker Face video (good dancing to the beat). I get that she's "out there" when it comes to fashion, but how is she divisive? She's no more strange or glam or divisive than David Bowie, and less than Madonna (whom I'm no fan of musically) back in the 80's. I ask this sincerely, what am I missing?

[jackmell]

My favorite song of hers is "Love Game". Great beat to dance to. Surely you guys would agree with that. Some other things with it though but that's another thread.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=52944368

[nucleargirl]

This is what I don't understand... I like some of her songs, and I enjoyed the Poker Face video (good dancing to the beat). I get that she's "out there" when it comes to fashion, but how is she divisive? She's no more strange or glam or divisive than David Bowie, and less than Madonna (whom I'm no fan of musically) back in the 80's. I ask this sincerely, what am I missing?

yeah I read that she's trying to be the female Prince? maybe. anyway, I think some people are just snobs who think her music is not of great enough quality (too pop/catchy maybe) to be considered good, and therefore look down on others who like her music and treat them as having bad taste.

[Greg Bernhardt]

I think some people are just snobs who think her music is not of great enough quality (too pop/catchy maybe) to be considered good, and therefore look down on others who like her music and treat them as having bad taste.

The music is what it is. It's meant for clubs, cars and cleaning the house. For those purposes I must admit Lady GaGa is quite good.

[nucleargirl]

My favorite song of hers is "Love Game". Great beat to dance to. Surely you guys would agree with that. Some other things with it though but that's another thread.


haha think you like the video! I like poker face and just dance - more catchy!

[turbo]

Gaga claims that she doesn't lip-synch and never will. Please watch this clip of her performance on Oprah. Around 4:05, she slams her mic down on the piano and her mouth isn't even moving as she "sings" the chorus. Just another fraud. When Milli Vanilli did this, people were outraged over the fake-out. After Madonna and Brittney were caught doing the same thing, it seems old hat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y3bFno4tu0

[Greg Bernhardt]

Gaga claims that she doesn't lip-synch and never will.


Now you're just trying to go after her. Nearly every pop singer will have an accompanying back track to help fill the sound. It's all about the performance. Take her for what she is. She's no Whitney or Mariah, but she has some talent.

[lisab]

The music is what it is. It's meant for clubs, cars and cleaning the house. For those purposes I must admit Lady GaGa is quite good.

Most of my cleaning is done to music :approve: (not GaGa though).

[vertices]

Most of my cleaning is done to music :approve: (not GaGa though).

The fame monster makes great gym music(!)

As an aside, am I the only person to find some her lyrics a bit eye brow raising (eg. 'I'll get him hard show him what I got' or 'I wanna take a ride on your disco stick').

I get her message that people should be proud to be different but it just seems to me a lot of what she does/says degrades women (the image in the OP being a case in point).

[nismaratwork]

I really don't care if she lip synchs or not... I like product as released in album/studio form, and couldn't care less about anything else. Her authenticity is not an issue for me either; she could be authentic as hell and have a limited shelf-life in the industry, or an utter fraud and last forever. In the end I just think her music is fun for a while (Poker Face, Just Dance, Paparazzi, Telephone), but it gets old after a while. I don't see her formula being one which lasts, because in the end it takes enormous creativity and musical talent to keep a product fresh. MOST can't do it, and she'd need to prove herself to be the exception, so I default to: "she'll be gone in 5 years or so".

Unless you're insanely gifted, keeping pace with public demand and not disappointing them is nearly impossible. Her image is only relevant if people are listening to her music after all.

Vertices: What message? Any message of hers is part of selling a product, just like David Bowie as Ziggy Stardust. It's about some fun music... the rest is what people choose to make of it. As for what she says in an interview, who cares? If she's got a brain she has to pretend to be doing something other than imageering, but that's all it ever is in pop... that's part of what makes it pop. I also have to ask, how does being sexually aggressive degrade women, when the aggressor is a woman? This isn't "Get Low", she's just throwing around sexual imagery and innuendo because it sells.

[jackmell]

haha think you like the video! I like poker face and just dance - more catchy!

Yeah, I was listening to "Monster" just now. I like that one too.

[jackmell]

The fame monster makes great gym music(!)

As an aside, am I the only person to find some her lyrics a bit eye brow raising (eg. 'I'll get him hard show him what I got' or 'I wanna take a ride on your disco stick').

I get her message that people should be proud to be different but it just seems to me a lot of what she does/says degrades women (the image in the OP being a case in point).

You got it. It's not so much the disco stick I have a problem with. Rather it's the "don't think too much" part I got an issue with.

[nismaratwork]

You got it. It's not so much the disco stick I have a problem with. Rather it's the "don't think too much" part that I got an issue with. That's a whole new thread.

It may well be a genuine reflection of her underdeveloped ethos... who knows. The issue really is that any woman would listen to that and take it to heart, much as any man would take the urging to "smack a **** with ya dick" to heart. If you have so little respect for yourself and others that the lyrics of popular music sways you... yer doomed. I don't blame the circus for performing dangerous stunts, because it's a show... it's a carnival. I don't blame pop stars and rappers for their lyrics espousing or describing degrading practices for essentially the same reason. "Don't do this at home kids"...

[turbo]

Now you're just trying to go after her. Nearly every pop singer will have an accompanying back track to help fill the sound.I'm not going after her. My very first exposure to her was when my wife turned on Oprah after jumping on her elliptical trainer while the performance was going on. She asked "Who is this?" and I said something like "Just another pop-tart lip-synching and dancing." It was obvious at the time, and true.

"Back track" is just a polite way of explaining that the performers cannot possibly dance and jump all around the place while reproducing the performances on their CDs, so they lip-synch. I haven't bought a single ZZTop CD since they threw the Black Crowes off their tour for revealing that "that little band from Texas" was "playing" over pre-taped tracks during their concerts. The dishonesty has been going on for a very long time (think 1960's TV shows) but then it was explained away as a commercial necessity because TV shows had tightly-scheduled commercial breaks. Clapton left the Yardbirds over this kind of dishonesty.

I don't care one little bit if people like Gaga's studio work, and want to buy CDs or digital downloads. That's fine, and a fair representation of her team's work. I think people should know that shelling out big bucks for live performances (if you really care about the music) is counter-productive. You will get mimed performances over previously-recorded tracks.

I am pretty heavily immersed in the live performance scene, and set a lot of store by it. One of the strengths of old rock and blues and jazz (played live) is that the genres lend themselves to lots of improvisation, so you get what you get. As Larry Coryell said, "That didn't come out like we intended, but that's jazz" or something to that effect. The statement is from his Fairyland LP. A killer jazz effort.

[GeorginaS]

My understanding of her is that she views herself as a performance artist and that everything she does in public she considers part of her art (music, acting, costuming, clothing design, etc). I dislike her music in general (not a fan of pop music in general), but I envy the way she takes her art to the extreme. I know it is not new, but to go all out and commit in that way is quite brave in my opinion.

Concerning this photo - I think the obvious interpretation is that posing, scantily clad, on the front of a magazine is presenting oneself as "meat," and then draping herself in meat is an acknowledgment and statement about being viewed only as meat. Just the obvious guess.

We have a very-close-to-winner here. Apparently she envisions herself as making some sort of statement with most visual choices she makes and some lyrical choices. She was on Ellen shortly after the MVAs wearing her "meat dress" and explained that both were tied to the reason that she had discharged gay military personnel accompany her to the awards ceremony. She claims that she's entirely opposed to denial of rights, and wanted to protest "don't ask, don't tell" by way of her escort. And topped that off with both the the meat magazine cover and meat dress as a way of saying, and I quote:

“Well, it’s certainly no disrespect to anyone that’s vegan or vegetarian….I, as you know, am the most judgment-free human being on Earth. However, it has many interpretations — but for me this evening it’s that if we don’t stand up for what we believe in, if we don’t fight for our rights, pretty soon we’re gonna have as much rights as the meat on our bones. AND, [holds up Japanese Vogue, on the cover of which Gaga appeared in a (real) meat bikini], I am not a piece of meat.”

Ellen and Lady Gaga Interview (http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/09/13/ellen-grills-lady-gaga-about-vmas-meat-dress/)

So, well, she gets people talking. Her visual message is a little obscure to sort out just looking at it on its own without context. But there it is. I don't think its intent was sexual.

From her piano performance videos, it appears she has some talent. That sort of performing isn't making people world famous these days. Dance music, outrageous videos, scantily clad women gyrating about, that's what's selling in popular music these days. So I guess performers make the decision to live in virtual obscurity or do something to make themselves at least blend in if not stand out entirely. She does that.

I abhor her name. I refuse to say it out loud. I understand that she named herself after the Queen song, but I aesthetically, I can't deal with the noise my mouth has to make to say it. It bugs me. But her? She's doing what ambitious performers have been doing for a whole bunch of years now, distinguishing themselves from everyone else so they stand out. She's got great costume designers, and video directors, and publicity people who keep her name front and centre constantly. I can't say that I could identify her singing if I heard it, but, even though I've tried really hard not to, I still know "who" she is.

As a contrast, apparently Kate Perry is a "wildly popular" singer these days too. I had no clue that she sang until I read about it in something associated withe VMA show last night.

All this too shall pass. Lady Gaga is just another person outdoing everyone else to make people talk so that they shine front and centre. So, good for her. It's difficult to top so much of what's come before her.

[vertices]

I also have to ask, how does being sexually aggressive degrade women, when the aggressor is a woman? This isn't "Get Low", she's just throwing around sexual imagery and innuendo because it sells.

Well, take female porn 'actresses' - who you'd also consider "sexually aggressive" - they partake in a disgraceful industry, which is basically about the humiliation and degradation of women.

LG by wearing 'meat' depicts herself a sex object (ie. meat), not a human being. This isn't 'art' - it's just vile pornography.

[Cyrus]

Well, take female porn 'actresses' - who you'd also consider "sexually aggressive" - they partake in a disgraceful industry, which is basically about the humiliation and degradation of women.

LG by wearing 'meat' depicts herself a sex object (ie. meat), not a human being. This isn't 'art' - it's just vile pornography.

You have issues with women and sex.

[DaveC426913]

LG by wearing 'meat' depicts herself a sex object (ie. meat), not a human being. This isn't 'art' - it's just vile pornography.
The balance between art and pornography is subjective.

Perhaps she is depicting herself as meat. That could be a message. But what is the message? It may be commentary. Would you denigrate every song, poem and piece of written that uses similar reverse psychology? '...If ah wanna push you around well I will I will...' Matchbox 20.

I'm not saying there's any value to the message, just that it is disingenuous to unilaterally declare it to be pornography.

[GeorginaS]

The balance between art and pornography is subjective.

Perhaps she is depicting herself as meat. That could be a message. But what is the message? It may be commentary. Would you denigrate every song, poem and piece of written that uses similar reverse psychology? '...If ah wanna push you around well I will I will...' Matchbox 20.

I'm not saying there's any value to the message, just that it is disingenuous to unilaterally declare it to be pornography.

At the risk of being repetitive, this is from the horses' mouth what all of the meat-business is about.




“Well, it’s certainly no disrespect to anyone that’s vegan or vegetarian….I, as you know, am the most judgment-free human being on Earth. However, it has many interpretations — but for me this evening it’s that if we don’t stand up for what we believe in, if we don’t fight for our rights, pretty soon we’re gonna have as much rights as the meat on our bones. AND, [holds up Japanese Vogue, on the cover of which Gaga appeared in a (real) meat bikini], I am not a piece of meat.”

Ellen and Lady Gaga Interview (http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/09/13/ellen-grills-lady-gaga-about-vmas-meat-dress/)

[jackmell]

Well, take female porn 'actresses' - who you'd also consider "sexually aggressive" - they partake in a disgraceful industry, which is basically about the humiliation and degradation of women.

LG by wearing 'meat' depicts herself a sex object (ie. meat), not a human being. This isn't 'art' - it's just vile pornography.

She is a sex object as are all women. Common' dawg, I should even have to be tellin' you that. Now we can be politically correct in here, take the high-road and all, and deceive ourselves about what this really is, or consider the underlying and still quite influential biology which controls it. Pretty simple really: survival and reproductive success. That's what she wants even though she may not realize that now, but women in general for their offspring, and he wants her. So she seduces him with her sex appeal and her strength, her youth, health, and beauty. Men are taken by that, as they are with their hunter-instincts to survive. She represents the sexual component to his desire in his quest for reproductive success, and the meat draping upon her sensuous body, his survival instincts.

[nismaratwork]

Well, take female porn 'actresses' - who you'd also consider "sexually aggressive" - they partake in a disgraceful industry, which is basically about the humiliation and degradation of women.

LG by wearing 'meat' depicts herself a sex object (ie. meat), not a human being. This isn't 'art' - it's just vile pornography.

Yeah... Cyrus has the main point here, but I'm going to add to this:

Porn stars and strippers can sell whatever line they want about the reasons for doing what they do, but psychology and various surveys and studies make it pretty clear that they're birds with broken wings. The degrading aspect of that line of work enters (no pun) when you have some drug addicted chippie humping a pole for tips. I'm sure there must be SOME stripper or porn star trying to get through college, but most have a history of abuse, neglect, or other trauma.

The same cannot be said for pop stars, although some do have such a history. Personally, I think the desire for fame is a bit mad, but it's a personal decision even if it also seems that the need for validation through acclaim is also motivated by more than always meets the eye.

All of that having been said, the only degradation involved in fame, politics, porn, or saaay... banking... is personal. Women as a whole are degraded and treated poorly without any help from pornography, so pinning that as some cultural failing is absurd. Would you rather be a women living in a country where you have no rights, your genitals will be maimed as a young teen, but oh joy... porn gets you executed? Yeah, I didn't think so.

As for Lady Gaga somehow making herself a sex object... yeah... she does it at a level that's no more extreme than men and women do in bathing suits, and she does it for TONS of money and fame she's been seeking. I'd say what she does isn't degrading, especially compared to being saaaay... a member of congress. The meat-suit is a publicity stunt, or a personal statement, or both. No pimp or dealer or tortured past stuffed (ha!) her into a meat-suit... she chose that to stir up a little news, and it worked! I'm not offended or shocked, but even I wanted to see what it looked like, and people like yourself who are outraged are an even bigger boon to her.

Personally, and this may just be me, I don't really see Lady Gaga as particularly attractive... she's more of a weird-fashion object than a sex object, and all of that is secondary to her music. If you doubt me, then find a pretty hooker, dress her in a meat costume, and see how that goes in terms of selling records. Oh, and what Cyrus said... you have real issues with women!

[nismaratwork]

She is a sex object as are all women. Common' dawg, I should even have to be tellin' you that. Now we can be politically correct in here, take the high-road and all, and deceive ourselves about what this really is, or consider the underlying and still quite influential biology which controls it. Pretty simple really: survival and reproductive success. That's what she wants even though she may not realize that now, but women in general for their offspring, and he wants her. So she seduces him with her sex appeal and her strength, her youth, health, and beauty. Men are taken by that, as they are with their hunter-instincts to survive. She represents the sexual component to his desire in his quest for reproductive success, and the meat draping upon her sensuous body, his survival instincts.

All women are sex objects?... OK...

What about Margaret Thatcher? Susan Boyle? Star Jones? Yes? No?

How about: all men lust after some women, and in their minds they think of some women as only objects of desire. The reverse is certainly true as well, but putting that aside, do you understand the difference between being lusted after and being nothing, but a sex-object?

[rootX]

Well, take female porn 'actresses' - who you'd also consider "sexually aggressive" - they partake in a disgraceful industry, which is basically about the humiliation and degradation of women.

LG by wearing 'meat' depicts herself a sex object (ie. meat), not a human being. This isn't 'art' - it's just vile pornography.


:eek:

Nonsense.

[nismaratwork]

:eek:

Nonsense.

Or you could just say that... I prefer the multi-paragraph approach. :rofl:

Still... well said, and no less true for being brief.

[rootX]

Porn stars and strippers can sell whatever line they want about the reasons for doing what they do, but psychology and various surveys and studies make it pretty clear that they're birds with broken wings. The degrading aspect of that line of work enters (no pun) when you have some drug addicted chippie humping a pole for tips. I'm sure there must be SOME stripper or porn star trying to get through college, but most have a history of abuse, neglect, or other trauma.

Those problems occur due to the public attitude towards this industry which leaves women in the hands of pimps. Industry itself is no worse/unethical than any other industry IMO.

There are several articles about like following but I could not find one I was looking for (Europe attempts in making this industry healthy and free from pimps):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7735908.stm

In my country while prostitution is legal; however, due to restrictions on open advertisements there are some serious concerns about the women in this industry.

[nismaratwork]

Those problems occur due to the public attitude towards this industry which leaves women in the hands of pimps. Industry itself is no worse/unethical than any other industry IMO.

There are several articles about like following but I could not find one I was looking for (Europe attempts in making this industry healthy and free from pimps):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7735908.stm

In my country while prostitution is legal; however, due to restrictions on open advertisements there are some serious concerns about the women in this industry.

Maybe... certainly the industry as a whole is no worse than having kids work in sweat-shops to make cheap shoes...

That said, prostitution is a bit different from stripping or porn, in that when criminalized you do tend to get an extreme marginal element that's abused by pimps, and drug dealers, as you say. Regulation of the sex industry does seem to minimize that abuse, but male or female, it seems that prostitution, stripping, and porn goes hand in hand with a history of trauma, sexual abuse, neglect, and other negative factors. The industry doesn't create the problem, or even make it worse necessarily, but for my personal tastes, I don't like going to a strip joint; the two times I have I just cataloged the personality disorders, PTSD, and other issues these girls had. If you can read body language and facial expressions well, it's almost physically painful to see, and often the same goes for porn.

HOWEVER... that is all PERSONAL degradation, and not degradation initiated by porn or stripping or prostitution; the problems begin with drugs, abuse, etc. None of it should be construed as Vertices has; that it's degrading to all women. Men are the majority of pedophiles and murderers, but that is still a personal issue for each criminal, not some kind of insult against the gender. Some things just ARE, and unless we achieve some social utoptia, the best we can hope is that more countries follow your country's lead and attempt to ameliorate the pain as much as possible.

[vertices]

nismaratwork:

I shouldn't have to tell you why porn is degrading to women - its obvious. When you have a situation where a man (or a group of men) 'enter' a woman's most personal and private space, for other men to ogle and drool at, this is clearly an example of degradation. The fact porn stars make tonnes of money doesn't make it any less degrading.

You may not find that image of LG attractive, but the I'm sure the first thought that comes to mind for many is, "wouldn't I like some of that meat!".

[jackmell]

You may not find that image of LG attractive, but the I'm sure the first thought that comes to mind for many is, "wouldn't I like some of that meat!".

. . . and the second, and the third . . . raw, sensuous, and Darwinian. I mean, it's like two birds with one stone: sex, AND a full belly. That's pretty much what men want and we need to want that if hominids are to continue. It's all a matter of biology as I see it.

I'd take a taste. Nothing trashy like removing a piece from her private parts but well, lil' piece from her stomach, lil' bit from her . . . . thigh. Yum, kobe.

[nismaratwork]

nismaratwork:

I shouldn't have to tell you why porn is degrading to women - its obvious. When you have a situation where a man (or a group of men) 'enter' a woman's most personal and private space, for other men to ogle and drool at, this is clearly an example of degradation. The fact porn stars make tonnes of money doesn't make it any less degrading.

You may not find that image of LG attractive, but the I'm sure the first thought that comes to mind for many is, "wouldn't I like some of that meat!".

You have DEEP issues man, really really deep issues. The first thought was, "Wow, way to get a really really nasty food-borne illness", followed by the less erudite, "YECH!!!". Then there was a riff on the theme, "why?!", followed by, "Meh, who cares *flips channel*".

I think the first thought for most others would be, "GROSS", and if at some point they made a sexual connection I would question what turns them on. You could wrap Catherine Zeta Jones (whom I do find deeply attractive) in the same suit, and I'd be so deeply turned off it would hurt.

To address your first point, DAMN you have serious issue with women. "most personal and private space"... do you mean her genitals or her secure server? You're building your disgust on a series of assumptions, which begin with the notion that sex is degrading when witnessed. As I've said, what makes it potentially degrading is that the women in question are rarely doing what they do for reasons anyone would construe as healthy or "free". If you construct the image of a woman who simply chooses the pornographic profession with no history of abuse etc... then it's her choice. In the most literal sense, nothing is taken from women through porn, but if men come to see women as objects as a result, there is a LITERAL degradation of their capacity to live in the world and perceive others.

Here's some free advice; whenever you have to preface something with, "it's obvious", or "I shouldn't have to tell you": it isn't, and you should. That's a sign that your argument is based on preconceived notions that may not be shared, not logic.

Jackmell: Yeah, we get it, you're a caveman, but fortunately everyone else isn't.

[lisab]

Strange topic, strange thread.

[nismaratwork]

Strange topic, strange thread.

Truly... you know, as a woman I'd like to hear your views on this one. I have my own, but I'm still a guy, which means that my view is somewhat less relevant given the gender which is most involved. Maybe Vertices is right and I have a lot of personal growth to attain?

[cristo]

Gaga claims that she doesn't lip-synch and never will.

It's pretty obvious that she isn't lip-synching there (if you listen to the 30 or so seconds before her dropping the mic, it's definitely live). As Greg says, most pop stars have backing track and, in essence, it's nothing more than having backing singers. Besides, the show is not only about the music, it's about the performance. Sure, if she was standing on the spot singing and needed a backing track then it would be pretty bad, but she's running around, jumping on things, dancing, and so it's pretty impossible to sing at the same time. Hence the backing track, and the need for having lines laid down on the backing track to fill in gaps.

I don't see what the issue is -- it's quite obvious that she has some talent!

[nismaratwork]

It's pretty obvious that she isn't lip-synching there (if you listen to the 30 or so seconds before her dropping the mic, it's definitely live). As Greg says, most pop stars have backing track and, in essence, it's nothing more than having backing singers. Besides, the show is not only about the music, it's about the performance. Sure, if she was standing on the spot singing and needed a backing track then it would be pretty bad, but she's running around, jumping on things, dancing, and so it's pretty impossible to sing at the same time. Hence the backing track, and the need for having lines laid down on the backing track to fill in gaps.

I don't see what the issue is -- it's quite obvious that she has some talent!

How DARE you drag this thread back to a reasonable and music-related topic?! :rofl:

Oh, and yeah, take Pink for instance... she has a great voice, but synchs sometimes when she's doing (literally) acrobatics. I don't see the problem.

[jackmell]

Jackmell: Yeah, we get it, you're a caveman, but fortunately everyone else isn't.

It's not (very) unusual to eat sushi off a young woman's body. She's in the middle of the table, naked, with sushi arranged attractively all over her body, not face and all the people sit around and help themselves. So, Gaga, table, lots of makeup though, sorry girl, sushi, and some nice cuts of kobe beef. I hear it's quite tasty raw.

[Cyrus]

It's not (very) unusual to eat sushi off a young woman's body. She's in the middle of the table, naked, with sushi arranged attractively all over her body, not face and all the people sit around and help themselves. So, Gaga, table, lots of makeup though, sorry girl, sushi, and some nice cuts of kobe beef. I hear it's quite tasty raw.

I was about to go to one of those things where you eat sushi off a naked woman last year, but I had a mid term exam for a graduate class......woe is me. But thanks for reminding me about this, I gotta find out if/when they have one again!

[nismaratwork]

It's not (very) unusual to eat sushi off a young woman's body. She's in the middle of the table, naked, with sushi arranged attractively all over her body, not face and all the people sit around and help themselves. So, Gaga, table, lots of makeup though, sorry girl, sushi, and some nice cuts of kobe beef. I hear it's quite tasty raw.

Kobe beef is delicious raw, sliced VERY thin, and generally not at room temp being worn as a suit. I have to say, I'd rather take my sushi and naked women in that order, and not together as a unit. Have a nice meal, and then a date... the other is to me, just a bit creepy.

[DaveC426913]

I shouldn't have to tell you why porn is degrading to women - its obvious. When you have a situation where a man (or a group of men) 'enter' a woman's most personal and private space, for other men to ogle and drool at, this is clearly an example of degradation. The fact porn stars make tonnes of money doesn't make it any less degrading.

1] You have no business deciding for soemone else whether they are degrading themselves. That is their call and theirs alone.

2] The definiton of sexism is to group people by their gender and make generalizations about what that group thinks or does. ("Women are emotionally clingy." See?) To suggest that "all women are degraded" is to corral them into one group and generalize them. That's just as sexist as claimnig they're all clingy.

To avoid sexism (or any kind of ism), you must treat individuals as individuals. The only way to know how an individual feels is to must ask them.



That stripper on that stage can no more represent "all women" than I can represent "all white people" by writing a skinhead diatribe.

[vertices]

1] You have no business deciding for soemone else whether they are degrading themselves. That is their call and theirs alone.

2] The definiton of sexism is to group people by their gender and make generalizations about what that group thinks or does. ("Women are emotionally clingy." See?) To suggest that "all women are degraded" is to corral them into one group and generalize them. That's just as sexist as claimnig they're all clingy.

To avoid sexism (or any kind of ism), you must treat individuals as individuals. The only way to know how an individual feels is to must ask them.


Women (or people in general) should be free to do whatever they like as long their actions don't harm others (or themselves). But feminists would argue that a statistically signficant number of porn stars do go on to have serious mental health issues, and more significantly, their work reinforces ridiculous, socially constructed notions such as those espoused by jackmell (which basically serves as an egregious justification for rape).

[Proton Soup]

Now you're just trying to go after her. Nearly every pop singer will have an accompanying back track to help fill the sound. It's all about the performance. Take her for what she is. She's no Whitney or Mariah, but she has some talent.

she sings better than me, i'll give her that

[nucleargirl]

man! people really do get worked up about this!
ok here's what she said (just watched the Ellen show interviewng her) and it is like this:
people who dont fight for their rights are eventually only gonna have as much rights as the meat on their bones. so she's trying to tell us we should stand up for what we believe in.
its probs to do with some gay people not being allowed in the army law that she's trying to get banned?

[Proton Soup]

even her "art" is boring.

but it serves the purpose. it gets her on Ellen to explain it, gets free publicity, and gets bank.

best of all, it plays well to teenyboppers, just like all the menstruation imagery.

[nismaratwork]

even her "art" is boring.

but it serves the purpose. it gets her on Ellen to explain it, gets free publicity, and gets bank.

best of all, it plays well to teenyboppers, just like all the menstruation imagery.

Naturally, she's her own product, and she has to sell it, and not only on Ellen; this has been on the news cycling over 24 hours. In the absence of a new album, what else is there, right? Her new thing was a very odd pair of... claw... shoes she wore: we're already on to the next "gaga".

DaveC: Well said, but Vertices seems a bit too convinced of his own moral rectitude to allow women to decide for themselves what is or is not degrading. Note that in his posts, he doesn't seem to find men having sex on camera degrading to all men, for the same reason that it is (to him) for women, or by representing men as "carnal beasts"... and pizza delivery men. :smile:

Vertices: In your own very PC way, you're pigeonholing women by making these broad statements about what degrades them or not. I also may not agree with Jackmell... in fact I'm pretty sure that I don't... but he seems to be making a dispassionate argument about human nature, not the "she was asking for it" argument. If I'm wrong, I'm sure he'll correct me, but based on his other posts I'd be shocked if he were saying anything other than "men are horny, women use that to their advantage." I think that's still ignoring the male end of the same spectrum as well as the disadvantageous nature of that arrangement. That being said, it's far from saying that women are objects to be "taken".

YOU on the other hand, should recognize that there is a vast difference between feminism, and the simple desire that all people be treated fairly and with respect. Feminists, in the literal "radical feminist" sense no more speak for women than PETA currently speaks for animal rights supporters. I LOVE animals, but PETA is insane...

Personally, I was raised such that I find most pornography, all stripping and prostitution depressing, and not erotic. I think of the degradation of self that led the women and men involved (and buddy, you're ignoring gay male porn in addition to straight men in porn) to cross strong cultural norms and use their bodies as a means of currency. If you show me someone in that business who isn't, for lack of a better term, f***ed up, I'll be into that one person... haven't seen that person though.

You're focused on an image you believe is projected on an entire gender, rather than the plight of an individual. In essence, you're inventing victims where none exist, and ignoring the ones that DO exist; relish the irony.

[nismaratwork]

she sings better than me, i'll give her that

So you're not Susan Boyle then? I'm crushed sir! :wink:

[leroyjenkens]

Perhaps this will put things in more perspective:

p3aQRzAOy7Y

I wish I was powerful, influential and could captivate millions of people around the universe by doing that.

[DaveC426913]

Women (or people in general) should be free to do whatever they like as long their actions don't harm others (or themselves). But feminists would argue that a statistically signficant number of porn stars do go on to have serious mental health issues, and more significantly, their work reinforces ridiculous, socially constructed notions such as those espoused by jackmell (which basically serves as an egregious justification for rape).

Yes. Excellent points. This is a much more rational stance than the usual "it degrades all women" argument.

[nismaratwork]

Yes. Excellent points. This is a much more rational stance than the usual "it degrades all women" argument.

Gee, and here I thought I was the one who brought up the mental health issues, instead of painting women as so easily degradable. Really, this just shows that we abuse the stupid and the damaged... which is hardly news. In essence, we continue to underestimate mental illness and the effects of trauma in our insistence to assign everything as "personal responsibility".