View Full Version : Students Busted for Cheating
Astronuc
Nov10-10, 01:48 PM
Florida college professor gives cheating business students an ultimatum - confess, retake the test and attend an ethics class, or don't graduate.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/business-15749628/students-busted-for-cheating-22954742
Everyone doesn't.
Wow, that's disgusting.
What really astounds me is the kid justifying it with something like "everybody cheats, it's just a witch hunt". Seems like he has some serious issues. I can truly say I've never, ever cheated on tests. And I figure the business world is better off without people like that. I swear you'd have to be some kind of sociopath to say something like that.
I feel really sorry for the professor. I also feel really sorry for the ~ 400 students that have to retake the exam because 1/3 of the class are cheaters. The prof is being really nice in allowing them to take the test again and take an ethics class, IMO.
The prof is being really nice in allowing them to take the test again and take an ethics class, IMO.
Identifying an abnormally high average to confirm other suspicions (the answer key left in his bin) is a strong indication that many students cheated. Identifying which students is another thing entirely. The options given are a realistic assessment that they would have a very hard time identifying which students cheated.
Of course, since about 150 people accepted his offer and admitted cheating, it's almost certain that a significant number of the admitted cheaters will reveal enough details about the cheating that most of those that didn't admit cheating will get caught, too.
A real life 'Prisoner's Dilemma', except with 200 participants instead of only two. The number of conspirators tilts the odds a bit heavily.
Ironically, if the student claiming all students cheat were correct, the professor wouldn't have seen much difference in the scores for the test in question.
This professor is just making big drama. I don't know how solutions were passed to the students but was it his fault? He can easily make a really hard final exam and bring average down to the normal level.
I remember once at my sister's university, a professor posted solutions online by mistake before the exam. Everyone did very good on the exam.
For final, professor engineered a really hard exam that put everyone back to their normal marks.
I wonder how many didn't cheat, but confessed anyway. If a student did much better on the exam than they usually do, they probably were feeling a little nervous.
The worst case of admitting to cheating when they hadn't was to lose an abnormally high score, take an ethics class, plus suffer moral indignation at confessing to something they didn't do.
The worst case of being wrongly found guilty of cheating was not to graduate, plus the moral indignation of being found guilty of a crime they didn't commit.
Avoiding a really bad worst case scenario is often times better than achieving the best scenario (one good test score that wouldn't change their overall average significantly). The choice could come down to how the student perceives the school will catch the cheaters. If there were a feeling that an abnormally high test score alone could be all the evidence the school needed, then the student would certainly be tempted to admit to something they didn't actually do.
Whoo boy. "Every cheats".
We used statistical techniques to detect cheaters 30 years ago when I TAed an intro computer science class. Our solution was simple: We graded the assignment or test as-is and then divided the score evenly amongst the cheaters. Four people cheated on an assignment: Their mediocre 80 turned into a 20. Two people cheated on an exam: Their fantastic 96 turned into a 48. Ouch!
How about changing homework assignments, and test questions every semester. That's what many of my profs did.
CRGreathouse
Nov10-10, 08:30 PM
We used statistical techniques to detect cheaters 30 years ago when I TAed an intro computer science class. Our solution was simple: We graded the assignment or test as-is and then divided the score evenly amongst the cheaters. Four people cheated on an assignment: Their mediocre 80 turned into a 20. Two people cheated on an exam: Their fantastic 96 turned into a 48. Ouch!
And if one person cheats?
If 200 people cheated on the final they would have each received at most half a point out of 100. That would pretty much be a guaranteed F, by about 69 1/2 points, and that is assuming that those 200 students somehow managed to get a perfect score. One of the weird things we discovered about the cheaters was that their original, unaltered scores tended to be rather low. Dividing those scores by some integer>1 made them low, low, low. Cheaters back then were not only unethical, they were, well, stupid.
Oh! Missed what you were asking. Catching one person cheating was not something our statistical techniques could handle. Those problems were handled by the professor.
How about changing homework assignments, and test questions every semester. That's what many of my profs did.
Hear, hear!
How about changing homework assignments, and test questions every semester. That's what many of my profs did.
Not practical: time intensive, solutions are often incorrect.
Hear, hear!
But then how are all the frat boys and jocks going to graduate?
JaredJames
Nov10-10, 09:21 PM
Not practical: time intensive, solutions are often incorrect.
Says a lot about the teacher (or person setting the test) then doesn't it.
My university lecturers change the questions every exam. So to say it isn't practical is non-sense. The choice is either have new questions each exam and reduce the risk of cheating or re-use questions and risk unrealistic test scores.
My university lecturers change the questions every exam.
I was not talking about exams but minor assignments: homework assignments, small tests etc. It is rare in upper years to grade homework assignments, neither there are any small quizes. It's only labs, midterms, and final exams.
Hear, hear!
I hear the professors go over syllabus at the start of every semester, and particularly plagiarism and cheating policy.
I was not talking about exams but minor assignments: homework assignments, small tests etc. It is rare in upper years to grade homework assignments, neither there are any small quizes. It's only labs, midterms, and final exams.
True, it's impossible to cheat in sciences and engineering. You either know how to solve a problem step-by-step or you don't.
JaredJames
Nov10-10, 09:29 PM
I was not talking about exams but minor assignments: homework assignments, small tests etc. It is rare in upper years to grade homework assignments, neither there are any small quizes. It's only labs, midterms, and final exams.
OK, perhaps should have clarified. They don't give duplicate questions in exams, in-class tests or assignments.
The only things that remain the same are the lab reports, but they don't count for much of your final score (5%).
I took homework assignments to be assignments. (Not small pieces of work you are given each day/week etc, but actual assignments that count to your final result.)
We don't get weekly homework.
True, it's impossible to cheat in sciences and engineering. You either know how to solve a problem step-by-step or you don't.
That's a bit naive. Computer science students will submit the same program, changing names and comments to hide the fact that they cheated. Similar kinds of cheating appear in all kinds of classes. Cheaters can be very creative in creating new ways to cheat. Old ways also work well. Fraternities are notorious for keeping copies of exams on file. If the professor doesn't change the exam every semester, all the members have to do is have a cheat sheet that tells them the answers.
Changing exams is hard. The questions need to be appropriate to the material. The exam should not be too hard or too easy. The instructor needs to anticipate all the ways that the question can be answered incorrectly so that partial credit can be given. This final factor makes developing a test an extremely difficult task.
Whoo boy. "Every cheats".
We used statistical techniques to detect cheaters 30 years ago when I TAed an intro computer science class. Our solution was simple: We graded the assignment or test as-is and then divided the score evenly amongst the cheaters. Four people cheated on an assignment: Their mediocre 80 turned into a 20. Two people cheated on an exam: Their fantastic 96 turned into a 48. Ouch!
That describes how you handled cheaters, not how you statistically detected them.
I'm curious how you could detect individual cheaters using statistical techniques. That kind of technique would come in handy in predicting when a baseball batter's hot streaks or cold streaks would come to an end, when a given poker hand was guaranteed to win, and in predicting when long strings of 'heads' would occur during coin flips.
The idea seems counter-intuitive.
It isn't completely off the wall since most questions can be evaluated by who misses them. Ideally, a question is a good test question if the high scorers (top third, for example) almost always get the question right, the average scorers (middle third?) get the question right a good percentage of the time, and low scorers are the most likely to miss a particular question. No one writes a perfect test and there will always be a few easy questions everyone gets right and a few hard questions even the good students are likely to miss. An individual missing the easy questions and getting the hard questions right would look pretty suspicious. I still don't think that would hold up as proof that particular student cheated.
That's a bit naive. Computer science students will submit the same program, changing names and comments to hide the fact that they cheated. Similar kinds of cheating appear in all kinds of classes. Cheaters can be very creative in creating new ways to cheat. Old ways also work well. Fraternities are notorious for keeping copies of exams on file. If the professor doesn't change the exam every semester, all the members have to do is have a cheat sheet that tells them the answers.
Changing exams is hard. The questions need to be appropriate to the material. The exam should not be too hard or too easy. The instructor needs to anticipate all the ways that the question can be answered incorrectly so that partial credit can be given. This final factor makes developing a test an extremely difficult task.
Writing programs would count as homework, or some project. But the exam is still on theory, and bits of selected code that could be easily changed, swapped or renamed.
The classic example is a prof that rescheduled an exam for next week because he was still working on the exam questions. Alot of times professors improvise as they go, and some like to play around.
I'm not disputing the tough job that a professor has from preparing a lecture, delivering it and making sure everything is on track. In fact I respect it.
It isn't completely off the wall since most questions can be evaluated by who misses them. Ideally, a question is a good test question if the high scorers (top third, for example) almost always get the question right, the average scorers (middle third?) get the question right a good percentage of the time, and low scorers are the most likely to miss a particular question. No one writes a perfect test and there will always be a few easy questions everyone gets right and a few hard questions even the good students are likely to miss. An individual missing the easy questions and getting the hard questions right would look pretty suspicious. I still don't think that would hold up as proof that particular student cheated.
I love bell curve approach!
My most exams are such that you can take book to the exam and still fail the exam if you don't know your material. For engineering, it would take few hours (along with good sleep) to get prepared to pass the course but it is nearly impossible to individually cheat.
Pengwuino
Nov10-10, 10:01 PM
Not practical: time intensive, solutions are often incorrect.
You change the numbers. The best thing about cheaters are that they're idiots most of the time. You change a few numbers in a physics test and MOST students, cheaters or not, will think you've made the problem completely different.
In regards to what someone mentioned earlier about people confessing even if they didn't cheat, here's the solution: Retake a test! Immediately (within a couple days) of the first one. Given a new test, if a student didn't cheat, their score shouldn't change by much. If someone did cheat, you should see scores plummet. Boom. Cheater.
As I mentioned earlier, our techniques could not detect individual cheaters. Since it was 30 years ago, here is what we did:
For programming assignments we used statistics from the the compiler to find cheats: heap size, maximum stack size, and number of tokens. We sorted submissions, by hand (TAs are cheap), by heap size then by stack size. We used number of tokens and visual inspection to eliminate false positives (amazingly we had very few false positives). All of the standard tricks such as changing symbol names or inserting spurious comments didn't help the cheaters one bit.
For tests we selected the two questions of the type "write a program segment to ..." and that counted the most as exemplars. In addition to grading the answers we also had to count the number of words in the answers to those exemplars. We sorted by word count (binned sort/subsort). Total score and visual scrutiny helped us weed out the false positives, and once again we had very few false positives.
Easy to beat? Yes. Since this was a bust-out course, word on how to cheat didn't seem to filter down from year to year.
Florida college professor gives cheating business students an ultimatum - confess, retake the test and attend an ethics class, or don't graduate.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/business-15749628/students-busted-for-cheating-22954742
Everyone doesn't.
Frankly, you should be stupid to confess for something which cannot be proven. Mind some posts above , heuristics are not proof. And no college professor should be given the arbitrary power to force students to retake a test. One test. Its your fault you are not able to supervise the test. Don't harass anyone with retakes to excuse yours or your staff incompetence. You as a teacher failed the university, failed the students and yourself if you are powerless to stop cheating in ONE exam.
You was cheated by X hundred students ? Your fault. Eat it up, and learn your lessons for next year. Dont complain.
zomgwtf
Nov10-10, 11:09 PM
Wow, that's disgusting.
What really astounds me is the kid justifying it with something like "everybody cheats, it's just a witch hunt". Seems like he has some serious issues. I can truly say I've never, ever cheated on tests. And I figure the business world is better off without people like that. I swear you'd have to be some kind of sociopath to say something like that.
I feel really sorry for the professor. I also feel really sorry for the ~ 400 students that have to retake the exam because 1/3 of the class are cheaters. The prof is being really nice in allowing them to take the test again and take an ethics class, IMO.
It makes you a sociopath to say that everybody has cheated before? lol...?
I'd say that the majority of people in life have definitely cheated in school at some point in time. The vast majority even. I know that I did back in math, make a cheat sheet with worked examples I knew would be on the test slide it in my calculator. Or even just using my calculators ability to solve quadratics and cubics and even higher powers to check my final answers is cheating.
Anyways the students got A HOLD of the final answers. That's the profs fault. If I somehow got a hold of answers to an exam I sure as hell would use them. I didn't hear anything stated showing that students stole the answers or something, they just somehow got them. I remember in highschool math tests were the same year to year, is it cheating that I could study off my older friends tests?
As well these methods used to catch the cheaters seem kinda iffy. I do not think there's any way to catch a cheater by using statistics. You either catch them in real life or not. Not in theory.
Pengwuino
Nov10-10, 11:40 PM
It makes you a sociopath to say that everybody has cheated before? lol...?
According to *random source I forgot*, one of the characteristics of sociopaths is that they believe everybody else is just as bad as them but wont admit it.
Anyways the students got A HOLD of the final answers. That's the profs fault. If I somehow got a hold of answers to an exam I sure as hell would use them. I didn't hear anything stated showing that students stole the answers or something, they just somehow got them. I remember in highschool math tests were the same year to year, is it cheating that I could study off my older friends tests?
As well these methods used to catch the cheaters seem kinda iffy. I do not think there's any way to catch a cheater by using statistics. You either catch them in real life or not. Not in theory.
This kind of thinking scares the hell out of me. If someone accidentally leaves their keys to their car on the door and someone steals it, the person who stole the car is off the hook? Well I better start installing a 5 ton safe in my house for my valuables because apparently if I don't, it'll be my fault when someone steals them.
Can you imagine using this logic in the real world? An investor looses his retirement because his mutual funds bought a bunch of mortgages that were crap? Well that's too bad, the investor should have gone out and gotten appraisals for every house that had a mortgage purchased to it. Someone threw out a bank statement with important information and had their identity stolen? Well if someone was rummaging through their garbage and ran into it, they should feel obligated to steal the persons identity!
Ridiculous. Stop trying to rationalize things you know were wrong to do.
It makes you a sociopath to say that everybody has cheated before? lol...?
I pretty much agree with Pengwuino. Though I'd just add that I in no way imply a serious diagnosis and I'm not a psychologist, etc. But I seriously think there's at least a little bit of something wrong with someone who would talk like that kid. A lot of people have a good sense of ethics. Two thirds did indeed do their own work (leaving aside the validity of the teacher's detection method, which I don't know).
Anyways, I'd kill to be able to go to University and study right now. It's a privilege to be able to go there and learn, and students who cheat are only cheating themselves, IMO. If they learned it, which is pretty much the point of the whole thing, they wouldn't have to cheat. On this, I'm guessing, we can all mostly agree. But it's really the way I feel about it.
Vanadium 50
Nov11-10, 12:19 AM
There seems to be an assumption that the cheating involved a recycled test. Is there any evidence for this?
The worst case of "bulk cheating" I am aware of involved some students breaking into the professor's office to get a copy of the exam, not test recycling.
Pengwuino
Nov11-10, 12:31 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbzJTTDO9f4
Here is the lecture where he confronts everyone.
Vanadium 50
Nov11-10, 12:33 AM
Doing a little reading on the web, it appears that one student handed in the answer key with his test. It also appears that the test is given by computer in a central testing center, and a third party who is somehow involved in this operation was selling the answers: the high-tech version of bribing the secretary who mimeographed the test.
Fraternities are notorious for keeping copies of exams on file. If the professor doesn't change the exam every semester, all the members have to do is have a cheat sheet that tells them the answers.
Weird the library at my university has an extensive final exam archive and most of the professors make their past midterms available.There is no problem with that since no professor would give the same exam twice.
Changing exams is hard. The questions need to be appropriate to the material. The exam should not be too hard or too easy. The instructor needs to anticipate all the ways that the question can be answered incorrectly so that partial credit can be given. This final factor makes developing a test an extremely difficult task.
Who cares?It is the professors responsibility to ensure that the test is fair for everyone.If it is to much for him then he shouldn't teach the course.
You as a teacher failed the university, failed the students and yourself if you are powerless to stop cheating in ONE exam..
The failures here are the students and modern society. IMO those students should be busted. Out of school, no transfer credits elsewhere, restart life from scratch. I do not want to live in a caged society where people will cheat unless prevented from doing so by incredibly intrusive preventive measures. I want to live in a free society. That requires that people for the most part will not cheat. Instilling a strong moral compass helps in that regard. So does fear of punishment for those who lack a moral compass.
"All people cheat." No, they don't. Some people are still quite honest by their nature and upbringing.
xxChrisxx
Nov11-10, 06:31 AM
I don't get it. So were the answers circulated or the bank of 700 test questions?
Also did people have the solutions whilst they were taking the test?
It's an important distinction to make as to wether it was technically cheating or not. Also is this multiple choice or something? 700 questions is a hell of a lot to work through otherwise.
Interesting give and take here. Let's take it out of the testing arena and apply it to a midterm research assignment contributing to a large portion of the student's grade.
Hypothetically, let's say a student reads a summary of a substantial amount of research by a PF member, then cherry picks the best ideas summarized in the person's post and is rewarded for his/her efforts with an excellent grade, having done none of the fact checking, organizing, prioritizing on their own.
Is this cheating, to "prey" off the hard work of another, or is it creative "research mining" ?
Rhody...
JaredJames
Nov11-10, 10:45 AM
I thought that was plagiarism. To pass off someone elses work as your own.
The students were wrong to cheat, but the professor should take more care and ensure they discourage cheating (changing questions, better security of papers etc).
If you give the opportunity for the students to cheat, chances are they will go for it.
It doesn't take that much effort on the teachers part to change some numbers / names in questions. Although it's only a basic change, the average cheater isn't going to equate it to a similar question as easily.
A good teacher will change every question each year. My uni does this and they also provide all past papers for study.
EDIT: Then again, I suppose if they referenced the PF member they can get around that. But that may have an effect on their mark if it can be seen not to be theirs, at all.
I thought that was plagiarism. To pass off someone elses work as your own.
EDIT: Then again, I suppose if they referenced the PF member they can get around that. But that may have an effect on their mark if it can be seen not to be theirs, at all.
jared,
I think plagiarism would apply if the person had used the PF's members conclusions in the paper as their own. If they had listed the source as the PF member and given them credit for their conclusion's and adding their own to it, then I guess that would fly. Would be interesting to see what the professor would do in that situation though.
Rhody...
Interesting give and take here. Let's take it out of the testing arena and apply it to a midterm research assignment contributing to a large portion of the student's grade.
Hypothetically, let's say a student reads a summary of a substantial amount of research by a PF member, then cherry picks the best ideas summarized in the person's post and is rewarded for his/her efforts with an excellent grade, having done none of the fact checking, organizing, prioritizing on their own.
Is this cheating, to "prey" off the hard work of another, or is it creative "research mining" ?
Rhody...
Depends on whether you're being loose with terminology and really mean a midterm report vs a research assignment.
For a report, a student is almost always summarizing the research or work of others, ranging from summarizing a particular person's work all the way to comparing the research of several people in order to draw conclusions that may not have been obvious to the individual researchers.
For a research assignment, the student should be doing their own research, not reporting on the research of others.
If you mean the latter, I would expect quite a few to misinterpret what you mean, since it's a subtle difference many miss, especially since finding and reading the research of others is considered research for a report.
But I think the example you give would be a report comparing the research of others - except the student in this case didn't actually do the comparing. He merely reported the results of someone else's report. It might not be plagiarism, per se, but I wouldn't think it would yield a particularly high grade, since the student didn't meet the objectives of the assignment - i.e. learn how to analyze and compare research and then synthesize them into a completely new idea. That would be an important skill to have when managing and planning an engineering project, for example.
It really depends what level class the assignment is for and what you expect out of the students (in other words, in high school or lower level college classes, the objective might be just to expose students to how other people analyze and compare research).
The failures here are the students and modern society. IMO those students should be busted.
Sure, if you can catch the ones who cheated and bring proof, punish them :P If not, that's it, nobody gives you the right to force all your students to retake an exam and take an ethics class. Remember: Innocent until caught :P And blame for cheating cant be assigned collectively: you need to single out the ones who did it and bring proof.
I do not want to live in a caged society where people will cheat unless prevented from doing so by incredibly intrusive preventive measures. I want to live in a free society. That requires that people for the most part will not cheat. Instilling a strong moral compass helps in that regard. So does fear of punishment for those who lack a moral compass.
You live in today's society. Maybe there ain't perfect, but is very little you can do about it.
Some humans will always cheat.
"All people cheat." No, they don't. Some people are still quite honest by their nature and upbringing.
Sure, you cant say that 100% of all humans cheat. However, during my life I seen that huge percentages of humans I came in contact with will cheat in one way or another if given the opportunity during their lives. Many times in what they believe to be harmless ways.
Sure, if you can catch the ones who cheated and bring proof, punish them :P If not, that's it, nobody gives you the right to force all your students to retake an exam and take an ethics class. Remember: Innocent until caught :P And blame for cheating cant be assigned collectively: you need to single out the ones who did it and bring proof.
I think you're wrong here. From my experience, professors have tremendous leeway in how they run the class.
I would assume that tests formed from a test bank are well-calibrated. This brand-spankin' new test is uncalibrated. Suppose only the cheaters retake the test. Lacking a calibration of the test, how can the instructor map test scores to grades? Forcing the non-cheaters to also retake the test provides the needed calibration -- and has the side benefit of creating a good deal of animosity on the side of the non-cheaters toward the cheaters.
Depends on whether you're being loose with terminology and really mean a midterm report vs a research assignment.
For a report, a student is almost always summarizing the research or work of others, ranging from summarizing a particular person's work all the way to comparing the research of several people in order to draw conclusions that may not have been obvious to the individual researchers.
For a research assignment, the student should be doing their own research, not reporting on the research of others.
If you mean the latter, I would expect quite a few to misinterpret what you mean, since it's a subtle difference many miss, especially since finding and reading the research of others is considered research for a report.
But I think the example you give would be a report comparing the research of others - except the student in this case didn't actually do the comparing. He merely reported the results of someone else's report. It might not be plagiarism, per se, but I wouldn't think it would yield a particularly high grade, since the student didn't meet the objectives of the assignment - i.e. learn how to analyze and compare research and then synthesize them into a completely new idea. That would be an important skill to have when managing and planning an engineering project, for example.
It really depends what level class the assignment is for and what you expect out of the students (in other words, in high school or lower level college classes, the objective might be just to expose students to how other people analyze and compare research).
Bob,
Lets say research assignment, back to my original question then:
Is this cheating, to "prey" off the hard work of another, or is it creative "research mining" ?
Is it plagiarism even if credit is given by the student to the source, what would the professor's options be given this circumstance ?
Rhody...
I think you're wrong here. From my experience, professors have tremendous leeway in how they run the class.
They have. Now this guys wants to abuse this power. Someone should stop him. Its his and his staff failure he cant identify the cheaters. I would be very pissed off on this man, should he force those antics on me moths before graduation. Prove that I cheated. If you are unable, leave me and my colleagues alone.
Pengwuino
Nov11-10, 01:29 PM
Sure, if you can catch the ones who cheated and bring proof, punish them :P If not, that's it, nobody gives you the right to force all your students to retake an exam and take an ethics class. Remember: Innocent until caught :P And blame for cheating cant be assigned collectively: you need to single out the ones who did it and bring proof.
As lisa said, professors can do whatever they want if it's not forbidden by their syllabus. There are no "rights" against having to take an exam twice. It's like the idea that you can't be forced to take 3 or more finals or exams on the same day. That is "widely believed" at my university but the fact of the matter is that no such rule exists; students just make up "rights" for themselves when it feels right. I've even heard professors telling students that they won't reschedule the exam for them when they were in that situation (though one of the others did so it was fine in the end).
Pengwuino
Nov11-10, 01:32 PM
Is it plagiarism even if credit is given by the student to the source, what would the professor's options be given this circumstance ?
If someone is given credit, I don't feel that it's plagiarism. However, if a student just copies, pastes, and cites large amounts of someone elses work, then it's just a poorly done assignment worthy of a bad grade.
As lisa said, professors can do whatever they want if it's not forbidden by their syllabus. .
Forcing someone to take an ethic class ? Is that in the syllabus of a phsysics major for example ? How do you justify imposing an ethic class on me months before graduation ?
Hiding your incompetence with forcing hundreds of ppl to retake and exam ? Again, fail. Someone should stop this man. There is no reason to retake the exam. I took it once and I was graded. Sorry.
Gokul43201
Nov11-10, 01:39 PM
They have. Now this guys wants to abuse this power. Someone should stop him. Its his and his staff failure he cant identify the cheaters. I would be very pissed off on this man, should he force those antics on me moths before graduation. Prove that I cheated. If you are unable, leave me and my colleagues alone.The university/department rules will determine if the teacher is abusing his powers. Given that this hasn't come up, and that he isn't being reprimanded or fired for a breach of rules, it seems likely that he is entirely within the guidelines to make the class retake the test.
If you don't like the rules, take your colleagues with you and leave the school.
mathwonk
Nov11-10, 01:39 PM
after a lifetime of trying to stop cheating, i began to just help people on tests by answering questions and giving hints. they had no reason to look on their friends paper, since i was even a better source of help, and if anyone looked puzzled i asked them if they needed a hint.
if a hint seemed useful to many people, i would write the hint on the board for everyone. grades didn't change much, and i treated it as learning and teaching experience.
JaredJames
Nov11-10, 01:44 PM
My maths lecturer had a good view (at least I believe).
He pointed out (quite rightly) that in life you aren't expected to remember everything. You will have reference materials available to you.
So all of his exams had reference materials provided by him.
Pengwuino
Nov11-10, 01:47 PM
Forcing someone to take an ethic class ? Is that in the syllabus of a phsysics major for example ? How do you justify imposing an ethic class on me months before graduation ?
Hiding your incompetence with forcing hundreds of ppl to retake and exam ? Again, fail. Someone should stop this man. There is no reason to retake the exam. I took it once and I was graded. Sorry.
You do realize he's actually giving these people a chance to not be EXPELLED? He could have just said "ok, you cheated, you've all been reported, have fun working at mcdonalds for the rest of your life".
Yes, someone should stop this man from not letting more liars and cheaters out in to the business world. I suppose you enjoy when people lie and cheat you right?
The university/department rules will determine if the teacher is abusing his powers. Given that this hasn't come up, and that he isn't being reprimanded or fired for a breach of rules, it seems likely that he is entirely within the guidelines to make the class retake the test.
Listen, IMO the professor is nothing by a cheat himself. Individuals who will punish everyone because their own incompetence allow cheaters to exist..He should quit
If events got you, dont whine. Learn for the next year. :P
[QUOTE=Gokul43201;2980270]
If you don't like the rules, take your colleagues with you and leave the school.
I sincerely hope that every college student in future will have easy access to lawyers to prevent any abuse whatsoever from the organization they are paying for tuition.
It's nothing but a commercial contract ultimately. You better make sure the university
can live up it;s part of the bargain. And in this case, it seems that it didnt. Large scale cheating is a indication of a weak process and weak professors.
Maybe what those students should do is to make this case publicly all over the internet, hitting hard in to the school's image.
You do realize he's actually giving these people a chance to not be EXPELLED? He could have just said "ok, you cheated, you've all been reported, have fun working at mcdonalds for the rest of your life".
Yes, someone should stop this man from not letting more liars and cheaters out in to the business world. I suppose you enjoy when people lie and cheat you right?
Who cares what he does ? I don't. If I was proven a cheater, AND YOU CAUGHT ME, expel me. If not, take a chill pill. YOu have no right to harass me before graduation.
Pengwuino
Nov11-10, 01:56 PM
Who cares what he does ? I don't. If I was proven a cheater, AND YOU CAUGHT ME, expel me. If not, take a chill pill. YOu have no right to harass me before graduation.
This thinking befuddles me. Are you telling me that if you were on the verge of graduating after 4+ years and in the final hours, you're caught cheating and are given a chance not to be expelled, you'd say "No! this is harassment. Expel me. I don't want to graduate if I have to take a 4 hour seminar".
Yah, right. I think you're just trolling.
This thinking befuddles me. Are you telling me that if you were on the verge of graduating after 4+ years and in the final hours, you're caught cheating and are given a chance not to be expelled, you'd say "No! this is harassment. Expel me. I don't want to graduate if I have to take a 4 hour seminar".
No sorry. Heuristics are not proof that a individual cheated. You either caught me either not.
Second,you don't force all your class, cheaters and not cheaters, to re-take an exam. Deal with the proven cheaters as you see fit. I dont care.
Don't harass the students which where not proven guilty with exams re-takes and ethics courses.
Yah, right. I think you're just trolling.
You are just defensive because you teach. You must learn to accept different opinions by yours,even if they are strong and non standard, without yelling trolling.
xxChrisxx
Nov11-10, 02:07 PM
I'd admit i'd be mighty pissed off if i'm told I have to redo something if i've done nothing wrong (especially if I'd got a good score). Also I'd have to agree that unless there was conclusive proof, you can't really accuse someone of cheating, saying statistically you had an odd score isn't really good enough. As it's perfectly possible someone normal just fluked it, being possible brings in reasonable doubt.
If I were in the position of a caught cheater, you clearly would just do the seminar. It's a get out of jail free card. Fankly you'd be a moron not to do it.
Not that I would ever cheat on a test.
Pengwuino
Nov11-10, 02:15 PM
You are just defensive because you teach. You must learn to accept different opinions by yours,even if they are strong and non standard, without yelling trolling.
I'm a student as well. Your ideas are simply ridiculous and I know even you don't believe in them unless you have a horribly misunderstood idea of what being a student is suppose to be about. If you feel being a student is about cheating the system for 4 years, then..... well, you're not alone unfortunately.
The professor is not an idiot, I'm sure (and if you've watched his lecture and done some research on it, you'd think this as well) his information goes beyond "I saw people did better, thus student x, student y, and student z cheated". Everything was electronic. If you have been teaching for a while, you know not to tell people how you know exactly who cheated and who didn't upfront.
Gokul43201
Nov11-10, 02:20 PM
YOu have no right to harass me before graduation.How do you know what rights the teacher does or doesn't have? Have you read the regulations for the school in question?
I'm a student as well. Your ideas are simply ridiculous and I know even you don't believe in them unless you have a horribly misunderstood idea of what being a student is suppose to be about. If you feel being a student is about cheating the system for 4 years, then..... well, you're not alone unfortunately.
No, your position is submissive and ridiculous. My position simply says that you cannot punish innocent beings. That you need to identify the guilty , and apply sanctions only to the guilty parties.
What part of this you find ridiculous ? Perhaps you find ridiculous the legal system as well, and the fact that we only punish the ones who we find guilty and we dont put ppl in jail based on statistics or hunches ?
The professor is not an idiot, I'm sure (and if you've watched his lecture and done some research on it, you'd think this as well) his information goes beyond "I saw people did better, thus student x, student y, and student z cheated". Everything was electronic. If you have been teaching for a while, you know not to tell people how you know exactly who cheated and who didn't upfront.
If he cant name the ones who cheated, he has nothing. If you don't want to say who did cheated and who didn't cheated upfront you have a problem. A big problem. You cover cheaters. YOu are a cheater yourself automatically. You hit in the best interests of fair students by covering the cheaters. By forcing punishment on all, innocent or not, to retake the test, you hit in innocents. You automatically favored cheaters. Unacceptable for a prof.
Pengwuino
Nov11-10, 02:34 PM
If he cant name the ones who cheated, he has nothing. If you don't want to say who did cheated and who didn't cheated upfront you have a problem. A big problem. You cover cheaters. YOu are a cheater yourself automatically. You hit in the best interests of fair students by covering the cheaters. By forcing punishment on all, innocent or not, to retake
He probably knows exactly who cheated and is giving them probably the biggest break in their lives by allowing them to retake it. It's unfortunate for the students around them, who probably mainly knew people were cheating, that their fellow students have put them in such a bad situation. Welcome to the real world. Your average student probably has had a ton of courses where their grades were curved because the rest of the class did so poorly. For one time in their college career, something negative will happen because of the rest of the class. They have to sit through 1 more exam. Big deal. Call in the lawyers.
Slight aside: The business education model must be drastically different than that used in math, science, and technology given that (a) 600 people were in the class, (b) the class was for seniors, and (c) the test was multiple guess. In our world those huge classes are for lower level undergrads and tests are (or were) essay questions of the derive this, compute that sort.
He probably knows exactly who cheated and is giving them probably the biggest break in their lives by allowing them to retake it. It's unfortunate for the students around them, who probably mainly knew people were cheating, that their fellow students have put them in such a bad situation. Welcome to the real world. Your average student probably has had a ton of courses where their grades were curved because the rest of the class did so poorly. For one time in their college career, something negative will happen because of the rest of the class. They have to sit through 1 more exam. Big deal. Call in the lawyers.
The professor is a cheater then. He covers cheaters and gives them unfair advantages and willingly hits into decent honest and rule following students.
What this professor teaches is that cheating pays.That he will step in to cover those cheaters. And that if you where fair, you will be punished at his whim , having to retake exams.
It is the professor himself who should sit in a ethics class.
. It's not a case for lawyers, what the decent students should do is make the professor and his antics tones of coverage on internet media.
NeoDevin
Nov11-10, 03:42 PM
He's not only taking into account relative marks in determining who cheated and who succeeded honestly. From what I've read, they're also finding out who purchased/accessed the answers.
From the marks statistics, he can make a list, and be confident that every cheater is on the list. He can't be confident that every person on the list is a cheater.
From the information about who accessed the answers, he can make a separate list, and be confident that every person on the list is a cheater, but not that every cheater is on the list.
He can only submit the second list for punishment, as they are the only people that can be proven to have cheated. As some of the cheaters will certainly be overlooked, the fairest solution for the non-cheaters is to force everyone to retake the test. As far as marks in the course go, it is to the benefit of the non-cheaters that everyone in the class retake the exam.
stevenb
Nov11-10, 04:09 PM
It is the professor himself who should sit in a ethics class.
I disagree.
You may not agree with the professor's choice and I read your points above and understand your point of view, but, there is nothing unethical in his actions. Real life situations don't always offer a clear ethical path. Each path has its own ethical issues, and a person has to weigh many factors and make a personal choice.
The professor is offering a type of forgiveness and a fair shake to the cheaters. He is offering them a chance to learn from their mistake and not suffer permanently for a poor choice they made. He is allowing them to get a grade that measures their actual knowledge. He is possibly saving the parents of the cheaters from a total loss of the investment they made in their kids education. (assuming cheating could be conclusively proved, which is decided by others and is out of his hands, by the way)
The teacher apparently feels he has no choice but to force all to retake the exam. He may have a good idea who cheated and who didn't, but he can't be sure. Ethically, he can't allow grades that are certainly corrupted by cheating to be counted. By forcing a reexam, he can be sure that all get a fair grade. Yes, the noncheaters are inconvenienced, but that's the fault of the cheaters. It's not unethical to inconvenience someone. It can be unfair, but may be unavoidable in some cases. Personally, if I did not cheat, I would rather retake the exam, than let the cheaters keep their good grades. The additional exam also allows further discrimination of the cheaters from the noncheaters. (statistically at least) Postmortem analysis is important and even ethical.
There is nothing unethical in the professors behavior. He is a human being in a no-win situation making a decision that he feels is the most fair and compassionate to all involved.
I could just as easily say that your choice of action is unethical, but I wouldn't do that because it would be unfair since you are just putting different weights to the ethical concerns and making your own opinion about what is the most ethical decision to make.
The professor is offering a type of forgiveness and a fair shake to the cheaters. He is offering them a chance to learn from their mistake and not suffer permanently for a poor choice they made. He
Dont do-it at the expense of fair students by forcing all to re-take the exam. This is clearly a unethical choice. It is simply wrong to punish the innocent and at the same time be lenient to
the real cheaters, giving them a chance.
He and the school ****ed it up badly IMO. Their process is very badly flawed if they get such high percentages of cheaters.
disregardthat
Nov11-10, 04:24 PM
What would count as definitive proof of cheating? What basis of accusation is needed before the professor can expel someone? Surely a statistically suspicious result on a multiple choice test could not be sufficient.
I would rather have 100 cheaters free of accusation than one honest student expelled and I hope most would feel the same.
I think the professor is right in making all retake the exam. First of all, the cheaters cannot be graded on this test, and second of all the honest students would have an unfair result relative to the global outcome. Statistically you'd get the same result on the next test. DanP; making students retaking the test isn't punishment, being expelled is punishment. The professor has clear and objective reasons for making all retake the test.
stevenb
Nov11-10, 04:36 PM
Dont do-it at the expense of fair students by forcing all to re-take the exam. This is clearly a unethical choice. It is simply wrong to punish the innocent and at the same time be lenient to
the real cheaters, giving them a chance.
He and the school ****ed it up badly IMO. Their process is very badly flawed if they get such high percentages of cheaters.
How is letting the scores stand fair to the noncheating students? It's harmful to them to have lower scores relative to the average. He's not punishing the innocent. He is trying to somehow get back to a level playing field as best as possible. Your statement that forcing a retake is unethical is unfounded. It's unfair to the students who didn't cheat, but it's also unfair to let the scores stand. This is a no-win situation. Your solution is just as unfair, but again I wouldn't call you unethical if you decided that was best. However, if I were an noncheating student, I'd be pissed off at you for sure. You seem to be saying that taking a test is akin to torture or some other horror. I'd retake a test any time if I knew that 1/3 of the class had the answers prior to the test the first time. Even if I do slightly worse, I'm sure to do much better relative to the class.
I agree that this issue of showing lenience is potentially unfair, but forgiveness is not unethical. Perhaps he has no right to forgive them on behalf of the noncheating students, but the complication is that he can't prove conclusively who cheated, so maybe it's better to just identify them by letting them confess. Again, your accusation of unethical behavior is unfounded.
Ethically, he can't allow grades that are certainly corrupted by cheating to be counted. By forcing a reexam, he can be sure that all get a fair grade. Yes, the noncheaters are inconvenienced, but that's the fault of the cheaters. It's not unethical to inconvenience someone. It can be unfair, but may be unavoidable in some cases. Personally, if I did not cheat, I would rather retake the exam, than let the cheaters keep their good grades.
I do understand the point that the innocent shouldn't have to pay for other people's dishonesty, as I'm pretty sure you do too. I know I'd feel that way at first. I always really hate it when I'm treated by someone else as if I'm dishonest by default, since I know I'm pretty much honest to a fault (but not to stupidity... For example, I know that "Do I look fat in these jeans?" is a TRAP!) - and don't get me wrong, I'm far from perfect over here.
But I still agree with you on your points. I think if I was one of the innocent students, I'd be angry at first, but then I'd realize that it's probably the only fair way to handle it. And that it's the cheaters that put everyone in this situation in the first place.
I'd also realize that I get a chance to get an even better score since I got a practice run. I should have an idea in which areas I was weak, and get a chance to brush up. Either way I should be able to better my score, I figure. Though if the new test is purposefully harder than the first, that would be maybe a bit unfair. Hopefully it's roughly equal in difficulty.
On the other hand, if I was one of the cheating students, I'd hope that I would learn a lesson from this. That what's important is not if you cheat or not, but whether you got caught. KIDDING! :biggrin:
Gokul43201
Nov11-10, 04:51 PM
It is simply wrong to punish the innocent ... And letting the grades of the non-cheaters be unfairly pushed down by the high scoring cheaters is a better outcome for the innocent?
and at the same time be lenient to the real cheaters, giving them a chance. Yet you propose doing nothing. Is that not more lenient than making them retake the test?
And letting the grades of the non-cheaters be unfairly pushed down by the high scoring cheaters is a better outcome for the innocent?
Exactly! Remember, a lot of classes - especially science and math - are graded on a curve.
The cheaters are screwing the honest students out of their hard-earned grades.
mugaliens
Nov11-10, 06:07 PM
Florida college professor gives cheating business students an ultimatum - confess, retake the test and attend an ethics class, or don't graduate.
Hooray!
Exactly! Remember, a lot of classes - especially science and math - are graded on a curve.
The cheaters are screwing the honest students out of their hard-earned grades.
Aha! I knew there was a reason I...
Proton Soup
Nov11-10, 06:50 PM
original link is dead, but from the discussion, it sounds like we've got ourselves a lazy teacher. disciplinary action is being wielded in the wrong direction.
Gokul43201
Nov11-10, 07:06 PM
original link is dead, but from the discussion, it sounds like we've got ourselves a lazy teacher. Justify?
disciplinary action is being wielded in the wrong direction.Explain?
Proton Soup
Nov11-10, 10:26 PM
Justify?
Explain?
instructor is lazy and generates exams from a testbank.
electrical_ck
Nov11-10, 10:32 PM
If somebody would have given me a possible final exam test, I would have taken it and continued my normal studying.
Bad/Lazy teacher IMO.
Gokul43201
Nov11-10, 10:40 PM
instructor is lazy and generates exams from a testbank.Still waiting on an explanation for the other part.
stevenb
Nov11-10, 10:59 PM
If somebody would have given me a possible final exam test, I would have taken it and continued my normal studying.
Even if you are not ethical enough, one would hope you would at least be smart enough to not take the possible final exam test. Your willingness to risk expulsion and the loss of invested college tuition and valuable years of your time, when very little is to be gained, does not speak well of your common sense.
Being truthful is the one bright spot in your comment, but I wonder if you would be honest enough to say that to your parents, and prospective employers. If yes, then at least here you would be putting truth ahead of common sense, which is a step in the right direction.
I would recommend that you aim higher. Try being ethical and smart at the same time. You'll be amazed at what unexpected rewards often come of it.
Evolutionary speaking a cheater would be a favorable trait among many. And this is what we see in the real world. Many people cheat all the time, whether at blue collar jobs or white collar jobs, whether young or old, whether married? Whenever there is a possibility to MILK the system, you will find lots of people lining up for grabs. One can even argue that the economic crisis was a direct result of cheating.
And so, there is no point in zeroing in on bunch of students. This system is basically a combination of upbringing, socials norms, peer pressure, (nurture), and human evolution (nature). And you have no control over these forces. While I'm not supporting cheating, I recognize those who did cheat simply exercised the physical laws that makes them up, the mind and the body (Ashby). Cheating is an emergent process.
Therefore, if you don't like it and don't and want to impede cheating, you have to fight it. Don't expect and drool over arbitrarily moral axioms and expect everyone will bend over. Take active action.
electrical_ck
Nov11-10, 11:12 PM
Even if you are not ethical enough, one would hope you would at least be smart enough to not take the possible final exam test. Your willingness to risk expulsion and the loss of invested college tuition and valuable years of your time, when very little is to be gained, does not speak well of your common sense.
Being truthful is the one bright spot in your comment, but I wonder if you would be honest enough to say that to your parents, and prospective employers. If yes, then at least here you would be putting truth ahead of common sense, which is a step in the right direction.
I would recommend that you aim higher. Try being ethical and smart at the same time. You'll be amazed at what unexpected rewards often come of it.
umm ok mr high horse??? Do you have a problem with students passing around old exams for studying purposes? When a student would give me an old exam from previous semesters I would practice those problems, I never said I would bring an old exam or anything to the actual exam. I would use it as a study guide if anything.
stevenb
Nov11-10, 11:17 PM
umm ok mr high horse??? When a student would give me an old exam from previous semesters I would practice those problems, I never said I would bring an old exam or anything to the actual exam. I would use it as a study guide if anything.
Ah, studying from old exams is not cheating, but you said "If somebody would have given me a possible final exam test I would have taken it ...". This sounded like you would be taking a possible copy of the exam you are about to take, which would be cheating.
If you are saying the former and not the latter, then I'm sorry. I don't think this case is about students studying from old exams. It seems to be about students knowing they had THE answers to the present exam. There is a huge difference here.
electrical_ck
Nov11-10, 11:19 PM
Ah, studying from old exams is not cheating, but you said "If somebody would have given me a possible final exam test I would have taken it ...". This sounded like you would be taking a possible copy of the exam you are about to take, which would be cheating.
If you are saying the former and not the latter, then I'm sorry. I don't think this case is about students studying from old exams. It seems to be about students knowing they had THE answers to the present exam. There is a huge difference here.
Yeah I would never bring anything like that to an actual final.
stevenb
Nov11-10, 11:22 PM
Yeah I would never bring anything like that to an actual final.
Ah, good! I'm sincerely happy to hear that. I apologize.
Proton Soup
Nov11-10, 11:48 PM
Still waiting on an explanation for the other part.
what is there to explain? you discipline the teacher for being lazy and using a testbank to generate the exams.
sure, it's great to believe that there's this awesome labor-saving device from the textbook companies. and it's a great way to get teachers to use your book. but this stuff gets stolen and has been out there for a long time now. you would think even an inkling of common sense would exist at the university level. but no.
i also find his theatrics just a wee bit incredulous(i did find the vid on youtube, tho it seems it's being scrubbed from the net as we speak). flabbergasted and floored is he? i guess i would be too if my *** were exposed.
Gokul43201
Nov12-10, 12:50 AM
what is there to explain? you discipline the teacher for being lazy and using a testbank to generate the exams.So the teacher should be disciplined for breaking the unwritten code of "thou shalt not be lazy", but the students that cheated deserve no punishment for violating clearly written rules?
Pengwuino
Nov12-10, 01:43 AM
Some people seem to see Teacher vs. Student as some sort of competition! NO, students are NOT in a competition with the teacher to con them out of giving them passing grades and teachers are not suppose to see students as a pack of criminals that must have every defense built up against their need to cheat! That seems to be the problem with students. They have no idea what it means to "earn" a grade. Someone at another department has an article posted on their door about how students don't believe they have to "earn" grades (although the article focused more upon "A for effort" thinking). I need to get a hold of that article...
xxChrisxx
Nov12-10, 04:26 AM
Don't you think this is an inherent trait of multiple choice tests though? (I'm still assuming this is multiple choice, as there has been nothing to show otherwise yet and even 50 short answer questions would be a pretty hefty exam). I can see the justification, as marking 600 long answer tests would take rather a long time.
It's just far more difficult to cheat at long answer questions (you'll need a bloody big crib sheet or eyes like superman), as you get most of your marks for method rather than the answer.
And frankly method marks have saved my bacon more than once.
I agree that this issue of showing lenience is potentially unfair, but forgiveness is not unethical. Perhaps he has no right to forgive them on behalf of the noncheating students, but the complication is that he can't prove conclusively who cheated, so maybe it's better to just identify them by letting them confess. Again, your accusation of unethical behavior is unfounded.
Then he has no case. He should lie down, and realize that the fault is his and the school's for the poor processes which led to such a situation.
Second, it is of utmost stupidity in life to confess anything which cant be proven by a investigator. It's naive to expect to identify ppl "by letting them confess". SOme will crack, most wont.
Third, yes, I can say he is an unethical man. He favors cheaters. He basically screams "Hey, cheating pays off. Ill forgive you cheaters, and Illl hit in fair students for you"
JaredJames
Nov12-10, 05:20 AM
Why is it always students vs teacher here?
I'm somewhat dubious about what constitutes cheating, but if there was a possible 700 questions and they were able to access the answers to the exact ones on a test then they clearly had access to the questions before hand - as long as the teacher didn't provide them, that is cheating.
If they had all 700 multiple choice answers on their person going into the exam, that is cheating.
If they had all 700 questions with answers and used them to study from, that isn't cheating.
Do we know which of the above it was?
The first is cheating on the students part.
The second is cheating on the students part, but I'd also put some blame on the lecturer for using such an easily breached system for generating exams.
The third is, from my point of view, not cheating on the students part. It simply the lecturer using an unsecure method of generating the exams and the students studying from the materials they know will come up - pretty much revising from past years papers (in my uni, although the questions change, the general theme of them is the same).
So far as letting them resit the test goes, this is plain ridiculous and is screaming to me that he feels he had a part in this problem. He is trying to cover his mistake. The ethics class, I don't think he can force on anyone unless he can prove who cheated.
I have to say, innocent until proven guilty. This isn't about "letting the cheaters go", this is about proving who has cheated and punishing accordingly. Otherwise you end up in a situation where possibly only some of those who cheated get punished and face potentially punishing those who didn't cheat.
Second, it is of utmost stupidity in life to confess anything which cant be proven by a investigator. It's naive to expect to identify ppl "by letting them confess". SOme will crack, most wont.
Except in this case. Of an estimated 200 cheaters, about 75% confessed and took the professor up on his offer. Most cracked. And of those who cracked, how many will tell who they got the answer sheets from and who they shared the answer sheet with?
Any cheaters that didn't confess will experience huge stress at a minimum and at least some of the non-confessing cheaters are going to face full punishment.
I agree that if all the students had stood pat and said nothing, there wouldn't have been much the teacher could have done.
As things worked out, the teacher inconvenienced all the students, with their consolation being two chances and their grade being the best of their two chances. He also made the incident very unpleasant for most of the cheaters and possibly devastating for some of the cheaters. (And the ethics class is for the confessed cheaters, not for all of the students.)
There's only one possibility that hasn't been covered. The cheater that confesses and then lies about who gave him the answer key and who he shared it with. In other words, he and/or a few other cheaters implicate innocent people just to obtain a small amount of revenge on the professor by turning his plan into a fiasco.
stevenb
Nov12-10, 07:47 AM
Then he has no case. He should lie down, and realize that the fault is his and the school's for the poor processes which led to such a situation.
Sure, some of the fault is with the professor and the school. They were not good enough policeman. Still, the police don't lie down, blame themselves and not-deal with the crime and the criminals just because they were not good enough to prevent the crime.
Second, it is of utmost stupidity in life to confess anything which cant be proven by a investigator. It's naive to expect to identify ppl "by letting them confess". SOme will crack, most wont. In life it might be stupid to confess, but here (in a school) is was a good choice. It's not naive to expect ppl to confess. They do it all the time. Here most did crack, so again you are wrong, as clearly shown by the data.
Third, yes, I can say he is an unethical man. He favors cheaters. He basically screams "Hey, cheating pays off. Ill forgive you cheaters, and Illl hit in fair students for you"
Nonsense. Giving someone a second chance is not unethical, it is not favoring and it is not condoning the behavior. Note that I'm not saying I necessarily agree with all actions of the professor, nor do I necessarily disagree with all of your points. I just think an accusation of unethical behavior back at the professor is unfair and even unethical in itself.
Bob,
Lets say research assignment, back to my original question then:
Is it plagiarism even if credit is given by the student to the source, what would the professor's options be given this circumstance ?
Rhody...
It's a funny world. Some people have trouble writing their own memoirs without resorting to plagiarism.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/12/george-bush-book-decision-points_n_782731.html#s180908
Is it ethical to challenge the accuracy of someone's description of events and then later use that description almost word for word in your own memoirs?
I can only hope that someday he'll regret admitting to torture in his memoirs and respond with the age old defense, "I was misquoted".
Proton Soup
Nov13-10, 10:46 PM
So the teacher should be disciplined for breaking the unwritten code of "thou shalt not be lazy", but the students that cheated deserve no punishment for violating clearly written rules?
maybe a little of both. but you need clear evidence of cheating.
another question might be just how much this is a cheat. 700 questions in the test bank. if you're studying 700 questions, then one might reasonably conclude that you're studying the material itself. and if you learn the material, then you deserve the grade.
Upisoft
Nov14-10, 01:15 AM
Second, it is of utmost stupidity in life to confess anything which cant be proven by a investigator.
It is stupid or/and unethical to get willingly in a situation that will require investigation.
It is stupid or/and unethical to get willingly in a situation that will require investigation.
unethical , maybe. Stupid ? Frankly, not always.
JaredJames
Nov14-10, 11:13 AM
If the questions come from a test bank of 700, and the students are aware of this so they then go away and study those 700 questions, I wouldn't call that cheating. They have been told what is likely to come up and have studied accordingly.
The only way it becomes cheating is if they either all of the answer to the potential 700 questions or the specific answers to the test questions into the exam.
My university provides past papers to students to revise from. I can look through those papers and see what types of questions are likely to come up, so from that I know what I need to be studying.
I put most of my effort into studying those style of questions and making sure I can answer them. It is pointless me studying something that has never come up (the lecturers tell us to look over past papers because they are the question styles we're likely to see).
Is it cheating that I learn how to do those types of questions to perfection? No. I'm learning from the materials provided.
If the uni insisted on vastly different questions each year that would stop that revision style, but until then that is the accepted way to revise for exams and even the lecturers will tell you that.
(Through the paper there are a number of questions covering all topics learnt through the year - you still have to know what you're doing because there are little changes each time, but it's still a similar question style - generally on a every other year basis).
If the students know what is likely to come up and learn that, that isn't cheating (assuming they don't gain said knowledge via unethical means).
Pengwuino
Nov14-10, 03:29 PM
One thing I'm wondering is this... 700 questions... for a midterm exam?
A midterm covers what, 4-8 weeks of material? How can you even generate 700 questions for an area of a text that is covered in such a brief time? This isn't a physics text where you can just change a number and situation here and there and have a brand new problem to a student. Then again, you can't even do that.
I'm starting to think the 700 question number being thrown around is realistically far far fewer than that. If you're going to memorize 700 questions, why not just... be honest and study?
Proton Soup
Nov14-10, 03:48 PM
it's interesting how he changes the bin sizes on the histograms
rbzJTTDO9f4
is changing the bin size an external force applied to the data set ?
oh, and then he mentions the issue at the end about the textbook companies turning this over to their legal staff. so students that turn themselves in under the amnesty offered may be exposing themselves to civil action? this could get interesting.
Pengwuino
Nov14-10, 04:00 PM
oh, and then he mentions the issue at the end about the textbook companies turning this over to their legal staff. so students that turn themselves in under the amnesty offered may be exposing themselves to civil action? this could get interesting.
I'm sure a lot of that was just to scare the students. The only real legal action the companies would try to pursue is against the person who originally gained access to the questions.
Pawn shop owners who accept stolen goods are accessories to the crime. People who buy stolen art are accessories to the crime. The same applies to those students who obtained this stolen information.
It is sickening to think that people are actually blaming the teacher for the fact that the students stole the test. If someone broke into your house is it your fault if they steal from you? Should insurance companies just be able to say, "Sorry, we are no going to give you any money because you should have been able to stop the thief." This is rediculous. At my school there are literally no professors or TAs in the room when the tests take place (they are usually in a room close by in case anyone has questions). And guess what: NO ONE CHEATS (which goes against all of the people who make the rediculous claim that everyone cheats). There is a very strict honor code that all students sign before the test. If anyone is found to have cheated there are serious repercussions. But I do not know of anyone that has cheated. It is horrible that some of you are excusing people from cheating. Also, they would be cheating the good kids in the class by ruining the curve. So we are penalizing the kids who didnt cheat!
Proton Soup
Nov14-10, 05:22 PM
the problem i have is that using test banks only serves to enable cheating. if you are a student that would not cheat under any circumstances, electronically-distributed test banks only make things worse for you. they should either make the banks openly-available to all students, or get rid of them entirely.
the problem i have is that using test banks only serves to enable cheating. if you are a student that would not cheat under any circumstances, electronically-distributed test banks only make things worse for you. they should either make the banks openly-available to all students, or get rid of them entirely.
I have to be totally straight with you here...if someone gave me the answers to a test right before I sat for it, and the circumstances were such that no one could *ever* find out that I used them...I just couldn't use them. And I really, truly believe most people are like me (doesn't everyone think that :rolleyes:). I think most people are honorable. So this "enabling the cheating"...I don't buy it. Cheating is cheating; how easy it was is irrelevant.
It is sickening to think that people are actually blaming the teacher for the fact that the students stole the test. If someone broke into your house is it your fault if they steal from you? Should insurance companies just be able to say, "Sorry, we are no going to give you any money because you should have been able to stop the thief." This is rediculous. At my school there are literally no professors or TAs in the room when the tests take place (they are usually in a room close by in case anyone has questions). And guess what: NO ONE CHEATS (which goes against all of the people who make the rediculous claim that everyone cheats). There is a very strict honor code that all students sign before the test. If anyone is found to have cheated there are serious repercussions. But I do not know of anyone that has cheated. It is horrible that some of you are excusing people from cheating. Also, they would be cheating the good kids in the class by ruining the curve. So we are penalizing the kids who didnt cheat!
Get over it. None is blaming the teacher for the fact someone stolen information from him.
I blame him for the balless attitude he has, the fact that he hits in all students, innocent or not, and the fact he is not acknowledging that when you are cheated by a huge percentage in a test, this only means one thing: you are incompetent to administer the test and the school procedures are a sorry joke.
And I really, truly believe most people are like me (doesn't everyone think that :rolleyes:). I think most people are honorable.
Lisa, dont get me wrong but this is a form of naivety. Most humans will cheat in their lifes, and many wont even think that what they done is cheating. Myabe due to a form of cognitive dissonance. Most humans will lie, in fact I don't know myself any human who didn't lied during their lifes. Id be glad to meet one .
Ppl cheat all the time. In schools, at jobs, in married life, in their civil life (taxes for example), in amateur and professional sports, just about anywhere. You have to be blind not to see it. Just watch carefully.
Ppl aren't good or bad. We are what we are.
Most humans will lie, in fact I don't know myself any human who didn't lied during their lifes.
Of course you don't.
They've honestly answered questions such as "Do these jeans make my *** look fat?" with "No, your *** makes your *** look fat." Or answered "What are you thinking?" with "If I wanted you to know, I would have said it out loud."
Needless to say they're no longer with us.
Proton Soup
Nov14-10, 07:50 PM
I have to be totally straight with you here...if someone gave me the answers to a test right before I sat for it, and the circumstances were such that no one could *ever* find out that I used them...I just couldn't use them. And I really, truly believe most people are like me (doesn't everyone think that :rolleyes:). I think most people are honorable. So this "enabling the cheating"...I don't buy it. Cheating is cheating; how easy it was is irrelevant.
according to the prof, the honesty rate here is about 2/3. but probably, not everyone had the opportunity to study the testbank, so theoretically, the number who would cheat is even higher than 1/3.
You do realize that the only way to study from the test bank was to have obtained it illegally?
Get over it. None is blaming the teacher for the fact someone stolen information from him.
<snip>
when you are cheated by a huge percentage in a test, this only means one thing: you are incompetent to administer the test and the school procedures are a sorry joke.
1. Yes, some people are blaming the teacher (eariler posts)
2. How can you say that the admin is incompetant when the only way the students were able to get the questions were by breaking the law? It is not like he copied the questions out of the back of the students book or accidently posted the test online. He got questions from a place that students should never be able to access. Students broke the law to get the test.
Just out of curiosity, what do you think he should do in this scenario?
Proton Soup
Nov14-10, 08:02 PM
You do realize that the only way to study from the test bank was to have obtained it illegally?
if you were a member of a national fraternity, how many academic terms would it take for members to reconstruct a test bank ?
By the way, I accept that people cheat. I am not naieve to that. However, when cheaters get caught they must be prepared to face the consequences.
Upisoft
Nov14-10, 08:29 PM
Ppl cheat all the time. In schools, at jobs, in married life, in their civil life (taxes for example), in amateur and professional sports, just about anywhere. You have to be blind not to see it. Just watch carefully.
Ppl aren't good or bad. We are what we are.
It is not a binary system. When you get into the jail (I'm sure your argument that everyone cheats will not affect jury decision) you may actually get some knowledge why some people have longer sentences.
CRGreathouse
Nov14-10, 11:12 PM
You do realize that the only way to study from the test bank was to have obtained it illegally?
Is that true? Howe do we know?
It is not a binary system. When you get into the jail (I'm sure your argument that everyone cheats will not affect jury decision) you may actually get some knowledge why some people have longer sentences.
This is not my argument, this is a simple observation. You should understand that it cannot constitute a defense of any kind, but nonetheless, most humans will gladly cheat given the opportunity.
Second, I don't discuss here the gravity of antisocial behavior and the lengths of appropriate punishments.
What if you didn't cheat and got a low score, but then say you cheated (poorly) so you can retake the test? Technically that would be cheating on your test, so you don't have to feel bad about saying you cheated because you did.
PhDorBust
Nov21-10, 10:45 AM
Selling test keys could actually be a big business, I know Cornell has one class with 1,100 students - one could easily make a years salary selling a single test key.
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