Breaking Sound Barrier: Investigating Condensated Flow

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the phenomenon of condensated flow as an aircraft, specifically an F-4 Phantom, breaks the sound barrier. Participants explore the conditions leading to condensation in transonic flow, particularly focusing on the behavior of pressure and temperature around shock waves.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the rise in pressure and temperature behind the shock wave would lead to condensation of air into water vapor.
  • Another participant suggests that pressure and temperature rise sharply just ahead of the shock wave, leading to a drop behind it, which could cause moisture to condense.
  • A different participant counters that gases behind a shock wave are at higher temperature, pressure, and density, citing the second principle of thermodynamics.
  • One participant notes that the pressure is disproportionately higher than the temperature and mentions the potential influence of dust in the air on condensation.
  • Another participant proposes that condensation occurs when the pressure drops below the partial pressure of water vapor in the surrounding air, referencing external sources for further information.
  • A later reply seeks clarification on the Prandtl-Glauert singularity and its relation to pressure perturbations and condensation, indicating a desire for deeper understanding of this concept.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between pressure, temperature, and condensation in the context of shock waves, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without consensus.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various principles of thermodynamics and fluid mechanics, but the discussion includes unresolved assumptions about the specific conditions leading to condensation and the implications of the Prandtl-Glauert singularity.

Clausius2
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This is my second post after that of "Shuttle Main Engines" in which I use again the question: what is happening here?

First of all, open the .jpg file below.

It shows a F-4 Phantom breaking the sound of barrier. I'm interested on what happens in the condensated flow. First of all, why is it condensated?. I know the flow shown is a transonic flow. So that, the shock wave is almost being formed in the zone in which Ma=1. In fact, it seems to be two shock waves being formed.

Behind the shock, the Pressure and Temperature raise a lot. But I have not found reasons for why this rising could provoke a condensation of the air in water vapor. On the other hand, do you think the borders of the condensed flow are the shocks waves themselves?. Are there any reason for thinking so?

Any comments appreciated.
 

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Not sure about this statement:

Clausius2 said:
...Behind the shock, the Pressure and Temperature raise a lot. But I have not found reasons for why this rising could provoke a condensation of the air in water vapor...

Wouldn't pressure and temp rise sharply just ahead of the shockwave, where energy is being put into the air more rapidly than it can be dispersed (by soundwaves)? If so, then temp and pressure drop sharply behind the shockwave, causing moisture in the air to condense.
 
LURCH said:
Not sure about this statement:



Wouldn't pressure and temp rise sharply just ahead of the shockwave, where energy is being put into the air more rapidly than it can be dispersed (by soundwaves)? If so, then temp and pressure drop sharply behind the shockwave, causing moisture in the air to condense.


I don't think so, Lurch. See http://tigger.uic.edu/~kenbrez/html/shock_wave.html ;

<quote:The gases behind a shock wave are at a much higher temperature, pressure and density than the gases in front of the shock wave>

This is a direct consequence of the 2nd principle of Thermodynamics. Saying P and T has to be higher behind is the same thing that saying entropy has to be increased through the shock.
 
Surely the pressure is disproportionatly higher than the temperature.
Also, the aircraft is close to the ground and there could be lots of
dust in the air which would help condensation of
water vapour.
 
GENIERE said:
IMO the condensate occurs because the pressure is below the partial pressure of water vapor in the surrounding air.

Check this site for neat pictures.
http://chamorrobible.org/gpw/gpw-20040817.htm

And this site for info.

http://www.galleryoffluidmechanics.com/conden/pg_sing.htm


...


Thanks. I'm quoting it from your last link:

"Near Mach 1, the Prandtl-Glauert singularity has amplified all pressure perturbations. As a result, the regions of expansion ( low pressure ) above the wings and cockpit correspond to much lower pressures than we would expect in an incompressible flow. As in other condensation problems, the lowered bulk pressure results in a lowering of the temperature causing condensation of the ambient water vapor. "


May someone elaborate a bit more this?. I've never heard about that. Has anybody some idea about what is it meaning?
 

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