Bush: The Greatest Blunder in US History

[Ivan Seeking]

In light of today's report on the alleged Iraqi WMD programs, which we now know never existed after Gulf I, and considering the lack of any significant connection between Iraq and 911, and considering that in spite of Bush's efforts to escape responsibility for his rush to war, and in spite of his efforts to escape responsibility for his decisions and claims made as President of the United States, I think the invasion of Iraq now qualifies as the greatest blunder in foreign policy in US history.

Bush will be remembered in history; exactly as he should be.

[omin]

And today we have the technology, communication, databases, videotape, etc, that is empirical representation of the waste that blunder is. But, it will probably take along time for us to see Bush and those Republicans who support him in full codemnattion 20/20 until all that is quantified. Right now, the right-wingers are just not intelligent enough to be ashamed of themselves for what they've encouraged.

[graphic7]

The long-awaited CIA report on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs says former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein did not possess stockpiles of weapons at the time of the U.S. invasion in March 2003 and had not begun any program to produce them.


If you read carefully, you'll notice that the report only investigates whether Saddam possesed WMD stockpiles at the *time* of the U.S invasian in March of 2003. This doesn't investigate whether or not Saddam had a stockpile before this time or not.

This also doesn't exclude the fact that Saddam may have exported his WMD stockpiles before March of 2003.

I'm a Kerry supporter, but you can't be wrong about facts like this.

[Loren Booda]

Blaming Bush is like faulting Howdy Doody for Buffalo Bob's indiscretions.

[wasteofo2]

:rolleyes:
What is it with you liberals, trying to undermine the war in Iraq and the President? Do you want the war to fail and Democracy to die? If not, you better stop saying bad things about Bush, how would the troops feel if they heard that people didn't like Bush and that the war was unjustified?

God, liberals, you all hate freedom and want there to be more terrorist attacks on the USA.

[Prometheus]

I think the invasion of Iraq now qualifies as the greatest blunder in foreign policy in US history.
I think that you are premature. If god were to come down to earth and bestow American style democracy on Iraq in the coming months, and if the Iraqis unanimously decided to love the United States for their wonderful assistance in achieving this, then I would consider your statement to be false. Only if Iraq continues as it has been will I agree with you that Iraq is the greatest blunder in US history, far surpassing even the blunder in Vietnam.

[Prometheus]

:rolleyes:
What is it with you liberals, trying to undermine the war in Iraq and the President? Do you want the war to fail and Democracy to die? If not, you better stop saying bad things about Bush, how would the troops feel if they heard that people didn't like Bush and that the war was unjustified?

God, liberals, you all hate freedom and want there to be more terrorist attacks on the USA.
You have a bizarre sense of humor, but it is funny. What is really funny is that there actually are people in this country who would think that your statements are serious and agree with them. Quite humerous, isn't it, and yet sad at the same time.

[tumor]

I don't blame Bush for Iraqi fiasco, I blame all of dumb American suckers who were bambozzled into going to war.
Bush did nice job, he needs to be reelected,and then he will **** us all for real.
This country has no right to exist anymore.

[wasteofo2]

You have a bizarre sense of humor, but it is funny. What is really funny is that there actually are people in this country who would think that your statements are serious and agree with them. Quite humerous, isn't it, and yet sad at the same time.
Yeah, they're known as people who take Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity seriously.

Rush Limbaugh is on the air from noon-3pm on weekdays, and he's the second most listened to radio program in all of New York City, a very liberal city. Makes you wonder...

[Prometheus]

Rush Limbaugh is on the air from noon-3pm on weekdays, and he's the second most listened to radio program in all of New York City, a very liberal city. Makes you wonder...
I agree. People who listen to Limbaugh just to laugh at the hypocritical self-confessed idiot. What people will do for a joke. As to those who actually think his point of view has some merit, ... you are right, it does make me wonder.

[check]

So very true... If Bush loses in November I wonder how many Republicans will back away from supporting him... it could happen

[wasteofo2]

So very true... If Bush loses in November I wonder how many Republicans will back away from supporting him... it could happen
It won't be how many Republicans back away from supporting him, it'll initially be how many Republicans accuse Democrats of manipulating the vote. If Bush clearly loses, it won't be Republicans backing away from supporting him, it'll be Republicans that never supported him in the first place.

[Zantra]

ahh denial.. and I don't mean the river.. Right now people are riding the coat tails... if Bush looses, it will be a very lonely trip back to texas. As far as Iraq, the most common argument I hear in response to Bush being wrong is "well Saddam needed to go anyhow". While that may be true, doing so under the guise of a misconception, after going against so many countries and the UN to do it, is a fool's errand. It's akin to winning a race by tripping everyone else ahead of you along the way, and then going "hah! I would have won anyways". The end never justifies the means.

As far as troop morale- I think if I were a soldier I'd rather know the truth. If I'm going to die for my country, I want the real reasons, not some misleading hype to make me feel better about my sacrifices. It's like finding out Jim Jones put something in the kool aid and not telling his followers because it would be such a huge "downer". However, some people are more comfortable in thier own little uptopia where Bush is a perfect leader, and only a victim of circumstance-who am I to take a dump in thier wheaties?

*shrug*

[Gokul43201]

Ah, a Bush bash-fest ! :biggrin: Bash on ! :approve:

[hanuman]

Dear All,
some how I am not able to understand how to punch in a question?
so I am useing this reply mode.
Can any one guide me?
Hanuman

In light of today's report on the alleged Iraqi WMD programs, which we now know never existed after Gulf I, and considering the lack of any significant connection between Iraq and 911, and considering that in spite of Bush's efforts to escape responsibility for his rush to war, and in spite of his efforts to escape responsibility for his decisions and claims made as President of the United States, I think the invasion of Iraq now qualifies as the greatest blunder in foreign policy in US history.

Bush will be remembered in history; exactly as he should be.

[Evo]

hanuman, either do as you did and select "quote" or "post reply" and type your question.

Welcome to the forum!

[Prometheus]

ahh denial.. and I don't mean the river ......
Nice post.

[pelastration]

In light of today's report on the alleged Iraqi WMD programs, which we now know never existed after Gulf I, and considering the lack of any significant connection between Iraq and 911, and considering that in spite of Bush's efforts to escape responsibility for his rush to war, and in spite of his efforts to escape responsibility for his decisions and claims made as President of the United States, I think the invasion of Iraq now qualifies as the greatest blunder in foreign policy in US history.

Bush will be remembered in history; exactly as he should be.
Is "blunder" the correct word? Blunder: to make a mistake through stupidity, ignorance, or carelessness
I think it was a "scam": a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation
The Iraq operation was and still is an intentional set-up by PNAC.

[russ_watters]

...and getting yourself impeached over a BJ is probably the biggest general Presidential blunder in US history.

As for foreign policy, is Vietnam too general to get the gold on this? Yalu (? North Korea)river?

Somalia was pretty dumb, but I guess death-toll (gross, not net) is what is important.

And you must be a Reagan fan...

[Gokul43201]

...and getting yourself impeached over a BJ is probably the biggest general Presidential blunder in US history.

As for foreign policy, is Vietnam too general to get the gold on this? Yalu (? North Korea)river?

Somalia was pretty dumb, but I guess death-toll (gross, not net) is what is important.

And you must be a Reagan fan...

You've got to be a Reagan fan to call this the worst foreign policy screw up. Reagan helped establish more dictators and fundamentalists around the world than your average James Bond baddy with hopes of world domination would care to shake hands with....but I don't want to derail this thread, so let's just stick to the Bush bashing.

(hanuman, were you asking how to start a new thread ? You do that by clicking the "New Thread" icon at the top left in the relevant sub-forum/section.)

[physicsuser]

PF better watchout cuz Bush is comming for your nucular program...

[Zantra]

Nice post.


I just call it like i see it..

[CJames]

Oh come on. Why is there such a liberal bias in all intelligent conversations. God, you go to a college and look, everybody's a liberal. Talk to a bunch of physicists and there all liberal. Talk to artists and writers and they're all liberal. What's with that? I mean, you all must be so blinded by your intelligence, creativity, and open-mindedness to see what you would have believed if you weren't exposed to them. If there's anything American shouldn't be, it's a place where people can accept other ways of life.

[BobG]

There's one key difference between a 'blunder' and an 'unsuccessful' effort. If the worst you get out failure is a bruised ego, it was only an unsuccessful effort. If you failed to plan for the possibility of an unsuccessful effort and that failure leaves you materially worse off than before, it was a blunder.

Viet Nam wound up having a humiliating end. Other than that, the US was not materially affected by what happened in Viet Nam. Same goes for stationing marines in Beirut. Same goes for Somalia. Same would have gone for Bosnia and Kosovo - in fact, success really didn't affect us any more than a failure would have.

The same can't be said for Iraq. Unless there is (or was) a contingency in place to deal with the possibility of the 'Balkanization' of Iraq or total civil war, Iraq was a major blunder.

The only comparable 'blunder' I can think of was the Cuban missile crisis. It was provoked by Kennedy stationing missiles in Turkey. His contingency plan was to remove the missiles, but the crisis came too close to being a disaster to be treated as just a mistake or an unsuccessful effort.

[Prometheus]

...and getting yourself impeached over a BJ is probably the biggest general Presidential blunder in US history.
We are talking about the greatest blunder by a president in US history, and you are bringing up the incredibly stupid and self-serving Republican power grab. As horrendous as the Republicans were in this respect, it does not match up to the idiocy of Bush and his actions. Nice try, though.

[Artman]

I'm sorry, but I don't see removing a tyrant from a land under sanctions for ten years as the largest blunder in US history.

I'm not saying I agree with the war, but the situation in that country was dire before the war as well. I will reserve judgement on whether or not this was truely a blunder until I see how their political future unfolds and how the rest of the world reacts to the new leadership (lifting of sanctions, rebuilding of infrastructure, humanitarian aid, etc).

[LURCH]

In light of today's report on the alleged Iraqi WMD programs, which we now know never existed after Gulf I, and considering the lack of any significant connection between Iraq and 911, and considering that in spite of Bush's efforts to escape responsibility for his rush to war, and in spite of his efforts to escape responsibility for his decisions and claims made as President of the United States, I think the invasion of Iraq now qualifies as the greatest blunder in foreign policy in US history.

Bush will be remembered in history; exactly as he should be.

A report which could not have been written if not for the war. The information needed to reach this conclusion was not available before the war. That's why there was a war; because Saddam would not allow weapons inspections to take place peacefully. So he had to be forced to give up the necessary information. (BTW; I saw the interview with the Director of the CIA regarding this report, and he said that there is no reasonable doubt that Saddam was seeking WMD developement.)

The war was fought because Saddam was not cooperating with weapons inspections. To show that the war was fought under false pretenses, one would have to show that Saddam was cooperating with weapons inspections.

My vote for greatest blunder would be trying to "peacefully negotiate" with Afghanistan's Taliban government. As we sat idly and tried to talk nice to resolve our diffeences, they attacked again and again, untill in the end thousands of inocent civilians paid the price for our lack of action. I for one am glad we didn't repeat that mistake, and suffer a Sarin or Mustard-gass (which we now know Iraq did have) attack in downtown LA.

[phatmonky]

LEt's reinstate saddam, put sanctions back in place, put our bases back in Saudi Arabia, reinstate the no-fly zone....... that was all working so great before.
I can't see why we wouldn't want to continue to kill so many Iraqis without holding Saddam accountable, continue to antagonize the saudis with our bases, continue to be fired on by Iraq, and still wonder how long until Saddam develops WMD. :rolleyes:

It makes me sick to think of the reality so many of you wish for continuance of.

[Prometheus]

It makes me sick to think of the reality so many of you wish for continuance of.
Your words certainly do sound like you are sick. Not only sick, but somewhat delusional. Are you trying to make everyone else sick? It sounds like it.

[phatmonky]

Your words certainly do sound like you are sick. Not only sick, but somewhat delusional. Are you trying to make everyone else sick? It sounds like it.
That's real cute. Adding more to this forum than you ever did before I see.

The reality of the pre war situation was as I described above for an infinite amount of time, or go in and change it. I disagree with the way things have been done, but I cannot fathom why ANY of you are so hell bent on wanting to keep in place an AWFUL system.

[selfAdjoint]

LEt's reinstate saddam, put sanctions back in place, put our bases back in Saudi Arabia, reinstate the no-fly zone....... that was all working so great before.
I can't see why we wouldn't want to continue to kill so many Iraqis without holding Saddam accountable, continue to antagonize the saudis with our bases, continue to be fired on by Iraq, and still wonder how long until Saddam develops WMD. :rolleyes:

It makes me sick to think of the reality so many of you wish for continuance of.

Nobody's suggesting any of that. The fact is that the Bush administration blew off our allies, spent us from budget balance into overwhelming debt, and attacked a foreign country on false pretenses, which had one good result, overthrow of Saddam, and many bad results, such as that we are now hated by big majorities not only in Islam, but in all the rest of the world too. Not to mention all the thousands of people who have been killed, and the puppet government, and..., and...

[Ivan Seeking]

A report which could not have been written if not for the war. The information needed to reach this conclusion was not available before the war. That's why there was a war; because Saddam would not allow weapons inspections to take place peacefully. So he had to be forced to give up the necessary information. (BTW; I saw the interview with the Director of the CIA regarding this report, and he said that there is no reasonable doubt that Saddam was seeking WMD developement.)

There is no reasonable doubt that Saddam had fantasies. So what? Do we start wars over people's imaginations? Apparently so.

By the way, we have a whole new reason for the war - the oil for food program. Its funny how this never came up until now. What will it be tomorrow?

The war was fought because Saddam was not cooperating with weapons inspections. To show that the war was fought under false pretenses, one would have to show that Saddam was cooperating with weapons inspections.

So what you are saying is that Bush did not tell us and the rest of the world that we were attacking Iraq because they were an imminent threat to our National Security?

What you mean is that this was Bush's rationalization to snub the UN and to alienate most of our allies.

[phatmonky]

Nobody's suggesting any of that. The fact is that the Bush administration blew off our allies, spent us from budget balance into overwhelming debt, and attacked a foreign country on false pretenses, which had one good result, overthrow of Saddam, and many bad results, such as that we are now hated by big majorities not only in Islam, but in all the rest of the world too. Not to mention all the thousands of people who have been killed, and the puppet government, and..., and...

And I can handle that. However, the statement being made from the beginning of this thread harps on the lack of WMD and link between Iraq and 9/11, not the pathetic execution of the war post decision.

And for the little quip at the end ;).....
Thousands killed < Sanction deaths
'puppet government' = interim government (and is standard fare throughout history when putting democracy in place)

[phatmonky]

1>There is no reasonable doubt that Saddam had fantasies. So what? Do we start wars over people's imaginations? Apparently so.

2>By the way, we have a whole new reason for the war - the oil for food program. Its funny how this never came up until now. What will it be tomorrow?

3>So what you are saying is that Bush did not tell us and the rest of the world that we were attacking Iraq because they were an imminent threat to our National Security?

4>What you mean is that this was Bush's rationalization to snub the UN and to alienate most of our allies.

1>Are you really going to take intent blocked by sanctions down to "fantasies"?? haha, let's stick to reality here.
2> I find nothing humorous about that at all. It's sick and some of the largest part of why I think sanctions are so stupid on a non-democratic country.
3>And you are going to tell me that you knew something Bush, Clinton, France, Germany, Russia, the UN, and John Kerry didn't? Everyone was feeding from the same information bag with a noncompliant Saddam sitting at the other end.
4>....

[Ba]

You know, as far as I remember not too long before the war there were weapon inspectors in Iraq, nothing was found, there wasn't anything there no matter how hard they looked. Then Bush and his administration decides that Saddam must have WMDs and be connected with the terror network. Now we look again and WHAT? still nothing and Bush still insists on WMDs. Meanwhile North Korea publicly announced they were creating WMDs at the time and Bush ignored them all together.

[Ivan Seeking]

Is "blunder" the correct word? Blunder: to make a mistake through stupidity, ignorance, or carelessness
I think it was a "scam": a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation
The Iraq operation was and still is an intentional set-up by PNAC.

As this pertains to the election in November, it is only necessary to understand that at the least, Bush demonstrated stupidity, ingorance, and carelessness in leading this nation. There is no reason to start slinging mud. :biggrin:

[Loren Booda]

Who among us here has risked their life in the current conflict in Iraq?

[Ivan Seeking]

If you read carefully, you'll notice that the report only investigates whether Saddam possesed WMD stockpiles at the *time* of the U.S invasian in March of 2003. This doesn't investigate whether or not Saddam had a stockpile before this time or not.

This also doesn't exclude the fact that Saddam may have exported his WMD stockpiles before March of 2003.

I'm a Kerry supporter, but you can't be wrong about facts like this.

Actually, the report to Congress was that he never restarted his WMD programs after Gulf I. His nuclear program fell into disarray and was effectively non-existant within six years.

[phatmonky]

You know, as far as I remember not too long before the war there were weapon inspectors in Iraq, nothing was found, there wasn't anything there no matter how hard they looked. Then Bush and his administration decides that Saddam must have WMDs and be connected with the terror network. Now we look again and WHAT? still nothing and Bush still insists on WMDs. Meanwhile North Korea publicly announced they were creating WMDs at the time and Bush ignored them all together.


I do believe you are unaware of how the inspections process is intended to work.


HINT: Inspectors don't go digging around in the sand trying to find something.

[pelastration]

HINT: Inspectors don't go digging around in the sand trying to find something.
High-tech imaging from planes and satellites. The technology is there.

[phatmonky]

High-tech imaging from planes and satellites. The technology is there.

Again, those craft are not directed by the inspection team. The planes and satellites are from member countries who were told, and agreed, to assist in the inspection progress any way they could. The US did so by providing as much daming information as possible. We wanted to make sure they caught everything, so we gave them everything that looked suspicous.
Then the inspectors did their job - they INSPECTED.

Inspections DO NOT WORK without cooperation from the inspected party. It is a requirement that Saddam work with inspectors for a goal of PROVING he had disarmed per his signed armistace. The goal wasn't to make sure we uncovered everything. It was to make sure he uncovered everything.

S Africa was a proper inspections process. Again, they said "we want to rejoin the world community". They handed over documents, provided scientists, gave unfettered access to sites without delay. Then the inspectors gave a green light for being clear.

Blix himself said that Saddam was still not fully cooperating, that the soil samples didn't accoutn for ALL of the stockpiles he had admitted to having, and that things would have to be even further open for inspections to be successful. While he stressed that things were GETTING better, he also stressed that cooperation was not at the level expected.

That is the goal of inspectors, not playing sherlock holmes in the desert. You don't just say "The admitted weapons are hidden well, so they must not exist." You don't leave that kind of weaponry around without accountability.

[megashawn]

like Edwards said, this is the first war-time administration to not create jobs. Every war previous has created tons of more jobs, yet we see close to 1million net job losses since Bush's reign began.

Maybe the war wasn't a blunder (even though they blatantly lied about the reasoning), but certainly most everything else this administration has done, is doing, or attempting to do is.

sorry, couldn't contain it.

[i_wish_i_was_smart]

i dont believe taking out Saddam is going to make such a big difference, as soo as the US pulls out, completely, more or less, its going to go back to the same crap, a religios group or whatever is gonna take power by force or democracy, then declare dictatorship, then bush the third, fourth or fith will have to do it all over again, the country intself is so devided and so unstable, its never going to work

[selfAdjoint]

I'm with you, smart. The south wants to be a Shariah tyrrany like Iran, the middle wants to be a Shariah tyranny like Saudi Arabia, and the Kurdish north wants to pick up everything that isn't nailed down. Ten years from now, unless something wonderful happens, the Iraqis are going to be pining for the good old days of Saddam.

The people I realy sympathize with are the Iraqi women. Saddam, with all his evils, gave them a semi-modern role in society, and the future for them looks like back to veils and stoning.

[Prometheus]

for an infinite amount of time
An infinite amount, is it?

I cannot fathom why ANY of you are so hell bent on wanting to keep in place an AWFUL system.
You are missing the point completely. COMPLETELY. You are missing the point infinitely, to use your phraseology. I think that nobody on this forum wanted to keep Saddam in power. However, more important questions were how high a price is justified for removing him and how many lies can Bush tell before it is too many?

Do you really think that removing Saddam was justified no matter what the cost. In other words, even if the cost is infinite, as you say, do you consider that nothing else matters in relation to removing Saddam?

[phatmonky]

1>An infinite amount, is it?


2>You are missing the point completely. COMPLETELY. You are missing the point infinitely, to use your phraseology. I think that nobody on this forum wanted to keep Saddam in power. However, more important questions were how high a price is justified for removing him and how many lies can Bush tell before it is too many?

3>Do you really think that removing Saddam was justified no matter what the cost. In other words, even if the cost is infinite, as you say, do you consider that nothing else matters in relation to removing Saddam?

1>Yes, infinite. You continue to question me. We arne't speaking, I'm typing. Reread if you missed the first time around....

in·fi·nite ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nf-nt)
adj.
Having no boundaries or limits.
Immeasurably great or large; boundless: infinite patience; a discovery of infinite importance.

2>A large faction of this forum wanted to keep in place a system that would keep Saddam in power. Whether they WANTED the end result, they still support/supported doing JUST THAT. Well, why don't you answer that question? Apparently we passed that point before ANY lives were lost in the most recent conflict (oh wait, thousands were dying under sanctions.)

3>I never said that, implied it, or anything. No. If you really want to discuss this, you could ask me questions without trying to imply that I said any of that.

[Prometheus]

1>Yes, infinite. You continue to question me. We arne't speaking, I'm typing. Reread if you missed the first time around....

in·fi·nite ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nf-nt)
adj.
Having no boundaries or limits.
Immeasurably great or large; boundless: infinite patience; a discovery of infinite importance.
You go to such great lengths to define this word. However, this does not make your original usage any more accurate or mreaningful.

2>A large faction of this forum wanted to keep in place a system that would keep Saddam in power. Whether they WANTED the end result, they still support/supported doing JUST THAT. Well, why don't you answer that question?
What question? As I said, you are completely missing the point. I do not think that a single person on this forum wanted to keep in place a system that would keep Saddam in power. It is simply that they did not want to change the system with no thought at all of the consequences, and with no concern about whether the consequences might lead to am even worse situation. Do you still not understand my point? Do you still think that my point is without any merit at all?

[kat]

What question? As I said, you are completely missing the point. I do not think that a single person on this forum wanted to keep in place a system that would keep Saddam in power. It is simply that they did not want to change the system with no thought at all of the consequences, and with no concern about whether the consequences might lead to am even worse situation. Do you still not understand my point? Do you still think that my point is without any merit at all?

I don't think he's missing the point. I suspect you are along with all of those who echo your same ole dreary proclamation. I also suspect that it's all well and good to declare that you weren't for keeping Saddam in power when no body has pressed you too hard for an alternative. So, I suggest a moratorium on those type of comments until you and your ilk come up with an alternative that didn't keep him in power which contained no risk that the consequences might lead to a worse situation. Until then you should probably just shuttup cause my other suspicion is that people like you aren't helping any and definately are undermining.

[Prometheus]

I don't think he's missing the point. I suspect you are along with all of those who echo your same ole dreary proclamation. I also suspect that it's all well and good to declare that you weren't for keeping Saddam in power when no body has pressed you too hard for an alternative. So, I suggest a moratorium on those type of comments until you and your ilk come up with an alternative that didn't keep him in power which contained no risk that the consequences might lead to a worse situation. Until then you should probably just shuttup cause my other suspicion is that people like you aren't helping any and definately are undermining.
My, isn't this the stupidest post I have read in a while. You and your ilk really can sling the ****. You say nothing of value, but it is really full of it. You post a large paragraph, but it is completely devoid of anything but garbage. Why don't you go back to the hold you crawled out of, and return when you have something constructive to say.

[Zantra]

people you're just trying to justify Bush screwing up. Saddam wasn't worth the price- he wasn't a threat, and there were no WMDs. To think otherwise is to delude yourself. If you equate the loss of life in this war, the economic impact, and turning the rest of the world against us to toppling Saddam, then you really have psychosis. excuses and lies(you can say "deception" but let's call a spade a spade.) That's all Bush has provided, even while wreaking havoc on our nation. God help us if he gets reelected.

To claim it was our right "just because we're americans" is arrogant and stupid. God forbid we ever have a true chrisis we can't handle internally in the future, because we'll be getting the international finger salute. If you take away the "WMD" excuse, we basically just said "we're bigger and we don't how you're running your country, so we'll do it for you". While that would have been great with international support, instead Bush just made us like like conquerors, not liberators.

[Ivan Seeking]

Has anyone noticed the obvious fallacy in the Bush argument? The report on Iraq stated that Saddam fantasized about regaining his WMD program after the sanctions were lifted.

In other words, the sanctions were working.

[kat]

My, isn't this the stupidest post I have read in a while. You and your ilk really can sling the ****. You say nothing of value, but it is really full of it. You post a large paragraph, but it is completely devoid of anything but garbage. Why don't you go back to the hold you crawled out of, and return when you have something constructive to say.

Lol, what no alternative plan?

[phatmonky]

1>You go to such great lengths to define this word. However, this does not make your original usage any more accurate or mreaningful.


2>What question? As I said, you are completely missing the point. I do not think that a single person on this forum wanted to keep in place a system that would keep Saddam in power. It is simply that they did not want to change the system with no thought at all of the consequences, and with no concern about whether the consequences might lead to am even worse situation. Do you still not understand my point? Do you still think that my point is without any merit at all?

1>Great lengths? Copy paste sir. Instead of beating around the bush, why don't you just come out and say it???
BTW, my usage is correct and what I intended.

2>So everyone here supported regime change, just not in the way we did it?
worse situation?-
Mortality in the Iraqi Population

before and after the imposition of the embargo



Year No. of Deaths
1989 (before the embargo) 27,334
1990 (embargo imposed in 6/8/1990) 32,464
1991 95,942
1992 123,463
1993 128,023
1994 133,681
1995 138,784
1996 140,281

Mortality in under 5 age- per month

No. of Deaths per Month
July 1990 (1 month before the ambargo) 539
July 1998 6,452

Mortality in under 5 age- per year

Year No. of Deaths
1989 7,110
1990 8,903
1991 27,473
1992 46,933
1993 49,762
1994 52,905
1995 55,823
1996 56,997


http://www.unesco.org/delegates/iraq/effects_health.htm

Again, you pull the straw man :rolleyes: When did I say your point was without merit at all? Do this again and you can go debate yourself.

[phatmonky]

Lol, what no alternative plan?

You are better at getting to him than I :rofl:

[Prometheus]

Lol, what no alternative plan?
Did you not notice the post immediately above yours? Look again.

You are difficult to believe. You claim that you are wondering if it is at all possible for anyone in the world to come up with an alternative to having an idiot like Bush unilaterally decide to burn bridges with his allies and go off half cocked on an invasion where he had no plan once the airplanes had dropped all of their bombs, based on a set of justifications that prove to be completely false?

You really don't care that Bush lied about why we went to war?
You really don't care that Bush had no plan to win the peace?
You really don't care that Bush alienated our allies?
You really don't care that Bush is a moron?

I guess that you don't. Come up with an alternative. What a joke.

[phatmonky]

You really don't care that Bush lied about why we went to war?


Can you show a willing intent on behalf of Bush himself to state falsities as the truth, in order to deceive someone (american people)??
Being wrong is not the same thing as lying.

[Gokul43201]

If you're looking for "letter of the word" falsehoods, you probably won't find them. But being clever with how you word things doesn't imply that you have not mislead the people. It only means there are some very smart people doing the speech-writing, and okaying language.

Do the words have to come from Bush's mouth, or will you accept words from other representatives of the Bush White House, like the Press Sec, the VP, the NSA, etc ?

I'm not sure where 40% of the people (as of last week) got the impression that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11 ?

[Ivan Seeking]

1>Are you really going to take intent blocked by sanctions down to "fantasies"?? haha, let's stick to reality here.

Okay, what do you call it when we dream? The fact is that with the sanctions in place he was crippled.

2> I find nothing humorous about that at all. It's sick and some of the largest part of why I think sanctions are so stupid on a non-democratic country.

Humorous? I was repeating what Cheney said today about why we went to war. Like I said, I wonder what the reasons will be tomorrow.

3>And you are going to tell me that you knew something Bush, Clinton, France, Germany, Russia, the UN, and John Kerry didn't? Everyone was feeding from the same information bag with a noncompliant Saddam sitting at the other end.

Ah, what you are saying is that Bush isn't responsible for his actions. This is a typical response to defend catastrophic failures in judgement. In fact, when I sat and watched the testimony by Powell and Rummy to the UN, I sat in utter amazement that these jokers had nothing more to go on. You can say what you want but this was my position from the start. Later, Powell admitted that he also was not comfortable with their claims. But his job was to serve the President.

Also, are you telling me that Clinton, France, Germany, Russia, the UN, and Kerry gave the order to invade Iraq?

[Prometheus]

Can you show a willing intent on behalf of Bush himself to state falsities as the truth, in order to deceive someone (american people)??
Being wrong is not the same thing as lying.
Cute. You claim that being an idiot is not the same as lying. Good one. How would you like me to show this intent?

Just listen to the guy. He is still denying what investigators say.

He does not have the brains or the integrity to examine his ideas in light of evidence. Many of our allies were unconvinced by the evidence, but Bush ignored them. He is a moron, and you give him the incredible benefit of the doubt and consider it a simple mistake that his ignorant evaluation of the evidence lead to major mistakes..

Although different from Bush, consider Cheney. He said today that the report showing that his primary reason for supporting the war was based on a mistake was proof that he was correct. He has consistently ignored the evidence and claimed that any evidence at all proves that he was right. Do you consider that Cheney is being honest, but that he just continues to be mistaken, making the same mistake he was making a year and a half ago?

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm noticing that no one is coming up with any examples of greater blunders in foreign policy. Does this mean that we all agree? :tongue2: Vietnam is certainly a runner up, but really we got sucked in slowly on that one; over several adminstrations.

Oh yes, Russ, as for your vote for domestic policy blunders, [btw, getting a BJ is not domestic policy], but if you wish to cite scandals, have you ever heard of Watergate? Iran Contra? Do you remember Agnew? Let's see...hmmm. those were also all Republican administrations weren't they. In fact, many of Bush's friends were involved in all cases; like Cheney and Rummy. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882164.html

[Ivan Seeking]

Whoops, I'm sorry, Iran Contra involved Bush's father.

[phatmonky]

1>Okay, what do you call it when we dream? The fact is that with the sanctions in place he was crippled.



2>Humorous? I was repeating what Cheney said today about why we went to war. Like I said, I wonder what the reasons will be tomorrow.



3>Ah, what you are saying is that Bush isn't responsible for his actions. This is a typical response to defend catastrophic failures in judgement. In fact, when I sat and watched the testimony by Powell and Rummy to the UN, I sat in utter amazement that these jokers had nothing more to go on. You can say what you want but this was my position from the start. Later, Powell admitted that he also was not comfortable with their claims. But his job was to serve the President.

Also, are you telling me that Clinton, France, Germany, Russia, the UN, and Kerry gave the order to invade Iraq?

1>If that is the point of your statement, then the REAL point is that there was no way to know this otherwise. There was NOT cooperation, and sanctions were set to be in place indefinitely. That is what you wanted/want? Read the numbers above for the deaths that were caused due to this practice, and still, only now after a different path can you even say that sanctions were working. Lack of cooperation by Saddam alone has always been the key test of whether sanctions were working. No cooperation means no ability to know if the sanctions were effective. That is the huge flaw in a system based on a despotic dictator telling the truth.
2>you said funny, just saying I don't find it funny. So he disregarded the other reasons previously stated? Or was just adding benefits to us going in? Link to him stating 'to bust up the oil for food scandal' was the reason for goign in?
3>Your statement was "So what you are saying is that Bush did not tell us and the rest of the world that we were attacking Iraq because they were an imminent threat to our National Security? ". What was the point of you making the statement??? My point in response was that any statement was made off the same intelligence everyone else believed, even those against the war. Based on this information, I fail to see any damning point if Bush did say Iraq was an imminent threat. I never said anything about post-war accountability. I have already stated in this thread that I have issues with that.

[phatmonky]

Cute. You claim that being an idiot is not the same as lying. Good one. How would you like me to show this intent?


You may want to think about rewording that sentence. They AREN'T the same.
You can't show the intent, and we know that. You made the charge that Bush "LIED about why we went to war?"

Can you show me this lie? I mean, if I were simply mistaken, LIE is a pretty hefty charge, no matter how stupid I am. You guys would get a lot further with your rhetoric if you could just easily back it with substance. I mean, post war incompetance would give you a better footing than a statement that you cannot prove (to my knowledge...if I don't add this caveat, I could be told I LIED instead of was just wrong)

[Artman]

I think that Kat's request for an alternate method of removing Sadaam is a valid point. The rising death toll due to the sanctions, should not be ignored. To say that the sanctions were working to keep Sadaam crippled does not address the fact that they were killing the Iraqi people and were being blamed on the USA by Sadaam and his supporters.

We learned following the first World War and the incredible depression in Germany that if left unchecked this kind of economic situation is a perfect breeding ground for hatred and power struggle. So what I want to know is, how would you have removed the sanctions to save the Iraqi people, and yet still keep Sadaam in check or remove him from power without resorting to war?

[russ_watters]

Has anyone noticed the obvious fallacy in the Bush argument? The report on Iraq stated that Saddam fantasized about regaining his WMD program after the sanctions were lifted.

In other words, the sanctions were working. Are you saying sanctions are meant to be permanent? Oh yes, Russ, as for your vote for domestic policy blunders, [btw, getting a BJ is not domestic policy] Actually, getting a BJ while on the phone conducting domestic policy is a domestic policy issue (iirc, it was also a foreign policy issue...). Whether you consider that a blunder or not is up to you. :tongue2: but if you wish to cite scandals, have you ever heard of Watergate? Iran Contra? Do you remember Agnew? Let's see...hmmm. those were also all Republican administrations weren't they. In fact, many of Bush's friends were involved in all cases; like Cheney and Rummy. Certainly - I did say you seem to be a Reagan fan. In any case, the point is that scandals and blunders happen a lot. Every administration has them.

Personally, I consider 9/11 a far worse blunder than Iraq. I don't really consider Iraq a blunder, but even if I did, we've lost about 1,000 people, virtually all of them soldiers. We lost about 3,000 on 9/11 - virtually all civilians. I consider 9/11 to be by far the biggest national security lapse ever in the US.Whoops, I'm sorry, Iran Contra involved Bush's father. Well, "involved," but not very much unless you buy into the Regan-took-an-eight-year-nap theory. I don't - he knew exactly what he was doing.

[russ_watters]

[phat, thanks for the numbers - clearest representation I've seen] I think that Kat's request for an alternate method of removing Sadaam is a valid point. The rising death toll due to the sanctions, should not be ignored. To say that the sanctions were working to keep Sadaam crippled does not address the fact that they were killing the Iraqi people and were being blamed on the USA by Sadaam and his supporters.

We learned following the first World War and the incredible depression in Germany that if left unchecked this kind of economic situation is a perfect breeding ground for hatred and power struggle. So what I want to know is, how would you have removed the sanctions to save the Iraqi people, and yet still keep Sadaam in check or remove him from power without resorting to war? Its a nasty double-eged sword, isn't it? I personally blame the deaths on Saddam for making the sanctions necessary, but I can certainly see why people would blame them on us (as the default UN scapegoat - these were, after all, UN sanctions). Anyway, sanctions work for their intended purpose while in effect, but they don't cure the problem and the side effects (terrorism and death) are as bad as the symptoms the sanctions ease. Quite frankly, it seems to me to be exactly the type of compromise Democrats like to make - and as long as we're quiet about it, maybe people won't notice the side effects. :uhh:

I've never seen an Iraq -> Germany analogy before. It fits well.

[russ_watters]

...such as that we are now hated by big majorities not only in Islam, but in all the rest of the world too. Are you saying the French are likely to become terrorists? People in the rest of the world may be annoyed at us right now, but there is a big difference between that and the real hatred directed at us from he mid-east. Not to mention all the thousands of people who have been killed... See phat's stats. and the puppet government... See the Marshal Plan.

[Gokul43201]

[phat, thanks for the numbers - clearest representation I've seen]

Clearest ?? I don't see how ! :confused:

I'm sure if I quoted the same information, someone from the right would challenge me saying :

"So...are you saying that the increase is due strictly to the sanctions, as opposed to...radiation levels from DU, the crippling effect of fighting the Kuwait War on the Iraqi economy, the billions of dollars worth of infrastructure that was destroyed by allied missiles and bombs, or any other factors ?

Can we get something better then supposition and innuendo here? please?"

[Gokul43201]

Whoops, I'm sorry, Iran Contra involved Bush's father.

...and people (or vermin) like Elliot Abrams, who plead guilty on charges of lying to Congress on multiple occasions (to avoid the bigger charges that were harder to prove.), and was appointed by Bush Jr. as the NSC's senior director for democracy, human rights and international operations - a post that does not require Senate approval.

[BobG]

A couple have mentioned that the decision to invade Iraq had to be based on information available before the war. The Senate's Intelligence Committee took a look at the pre-war assessment:

Had responsible persons in the administration read the report and compared it others, they would have realized the information was essentially the same .... only the conclusions changed. The CIA's NIE was the only intelligence report suggesting Iraq was an imminent threat. Other intel information available disagreed with much of the CIA's report. The general congress didn't have access to the classified version of the report - they basically were presented the conclusions as verified fact.

A transcript of the Senate's review of prewar intellligence is here: http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/5792

Conclusions 8 and 11 are kind of interesting. Conclusion 8 talks about the drastic change in reporting styles and Conclusion 11 talks about possible pressure placed on the CIA to alter their conclusions. They found no evidence of CIA analysts altering their conclusions due to outside pressure.

Most of the 'failure' is placed directly on the CIA and it's hard to say how reasonable it was for the administration to be misled by faulty intelligence, but people make decisions like this all the time.

Your wife's car's ABS light is constantly lit, the mechanic says the light is malfunctioning, not the brakes and charges you $40. The light doesn't come on anymore. Do you trust him?

Your wife's car's ABS light is constantly lit, the mechanic says your entire ABS system has to be replaced at a cost of $1295. You throw a fit, refusing to pay even the diagnostic charge. The mechanic takes a second look and finds that it is the light that is malfunctioning, not the brake system, and charges you $40. The light doesn't come on anymore. Do you trust him?

Your wife's car is covered by an extended warranty and the mechanic has done over a $1000 worth of work on your brake system during repeated trips to the mechanic and, still, the ABS light comes back on a day or two after the car has been repaired. The mechanic finally discovers that the only real malfunction is a defective ABS light. The light doesn't come on anymore. Do you trust him?

[Artman]

I'm sure if I quoted the same information, someone from the right would challenge me saying :

"So...are you saying that the increase is due strictly to the sanctions, as opposed to...radiation levels from DU, the crippling effect of fighting the Kuwait War on the Iraqi economy, the billions of dollars worth of infrastructure that was destroyed by allied missiles and bombs, or any other factors ?

Can we get something better then supposition and innuendo here? please?"The title of this post makes an enourmous claim "Bush: the biggest blunder in US history." As long as there are possiblities that this was not a blunder, that statement is not fully substantiated. The burdon of proof should lie with the accuser, niot the accused. Besides, which of those items could not have been improved by the lifting of sanctions, removal of Sadaam and the availability of foreign aid to the Iraqi people?

[Gokul43201]

The title of this post makes an enourmous claim "Bush: the biggest blunder in US history." As long as there are possiblities that this was not a blunder, that statement is not fully substantiated. The burdon of proof should lie with the accuser, niot the accused. Besides, which of those items could not have been improved by the lifting of sanctions, removal of Sadaam and the availability of foreign aid to the Iraqi people?

I've made it clear, in a previous post, that I do not agree with the title of this thread. Nor am I trying to give Saddam the benefit of doubt for anything.

I'm merely complaining about russ' repeated assertions that phatmonky's post "clearly" proves that the sanctions were the cause of all these deaths. Seems to me like a lowering of standards.

[Spectre32]

Actually.... It's not Bush's fault that allot of what happened. The real person to blame was Clinton. He was that one that let the attacks build up(Uss Cole, all of bombing of embassy’s, etc etc) As soon as Somalia went to crap, and people complained, that’s when he grew a vag on the terrorism front. The director of CIA, from day one, said the biggest threat to America was Osama Bin Laden. So what does he do? Nothing. Oh wait he launches a few cruise missiles at "training camps." Also lets not kid ourselves, all of you Die hard democrats should know that whoever gets elected, the outcome is going to be the same. Kerry with all of his crap and Bush with his, all ends up at the same place after 4 years. So I mean people say this is a big election... but it's not really, because Iraq is going to dictate allot. So I'm waiting for next terms election.

October 2002: Kerry Voted For Use Of Force Resolution Against Iraq. Kerry and Edwards voted for the Congressional resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq. (H. J. Res. 114, CQ Vote #237: Passed 77-23: R 48-1; D 29-21; I 0-1, 10/11/02, Kerry Voted Yea)


Also with the screw up in Iraq, me must also consider this. Dicky and Rummy wanted to go in initaly... Bush was undecided, and Powell said No. So really those two convinced bush to get into Iraq. Rummy was pushing Iraq from day one, like he had some sort of score to settle. I suggest you guys read Bush at War and Plan of Attack. There both relly good books, and then you don't sound like a jackass when your talking on the forums.( that was directed to no one in particular, just as a general statement)


September 2004: Kerry: Iraq Is "The Wrong War In The Wrong Place At The Wrong Time." "Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry on Monday called the invasion of Iraq ‘the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time’ and said his goal was to withdraw U.S. troops in his first White House term." (Patricia Wilson, " Kerry on Iraq: Wrong War, Wrong Place, Wrong Time", Reuters, 9/6/04)


See it's the same crap over and over...... I want someone with Answers and a real stragety. Wesly Clark should have won against Kerry, cause hes a badass, ands knows whats up.

[Prometheus]

You can't show the intent, and we know that. You made the charge that Bush "LIED about why we went to war?"
Let us say that I agree with you and decide to give Bush the benefit of the doubt. He is an idiot, and he has no ability to think. The fact that he selectively evaluated the evidence is not his fault, because he is stupid. The fact that he decided that we needed to hurry so quickly that it is ok if we alienate our allies is justified because he is an impulsive idiot.

Bush told us the reasons for going to war. Those reasons turn out to be in error. In other words, Bush convinced the country to go to war for reasons that were not true. Bush therefore used fallacious reasons. I believe that someone with some brains would not have been in such a hurry, would not have been so selective in the evidence that he accepted, and would not have go off half-cocked like the idiot that he is.

Now, you are claiming that I must somehow prove in a manner that you accept that he did lied with premeditated intent. I see no need for this. He made statements that were not true. He must be held responsible for that. Passing the buck is not an option that I recognize as valid in this case. It does not matter to me that I cannot convince you that he had intent to lie. The fact of the matter is that he did make untrue statements repeatedly in an attempt to coerce the American people.

By the way, do you recognize that Cheney lied? He is still maintaining several points that no one in the administration other than he is making. Or, do you believe that Cheney is telling the truth as well.

A quick look at dictionary.com defines lie in a couple of ways. Notice that the first one is:
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
Only in the second (as in not first) definition does it indicate that a lie can also be understood as possessing intent to deceive.

[Spectre32]

Bush told us the reasons for going to war. Those reasons turn out to be in error. In other words, Bush convinced the country to go to war for reasons that were not true. Bush therefore used fallacious reasons. I believe that someone with some brains would not have been in such a hurry, would not have been so selective in the evidence that he accepted, and would not have go off half-cocked like the idiot that he is.




Well I assume your a democrat, So i say look at my post above. You Boy kerry voted to go to war with Iraq.

[Prometheus]

Well I assume your a democrat,
For the sake of argument, why don't you assume that you are wrong, since you are, and then try again.
So i say look at my post above. You Boy kerry voted to go to war with Iraq.
Since Kerry is not my boy, what are you left with? A dumb Bush and his lies. Sorry.

How does your contention here, even if it were true, which it is not, justify the mistakes and incompetance of Bush that I pointed out in the citation that you referred to?

[BobG]

I think that Kat's request for an alternate method of removing Sadaam is a valid point. The rising death toll due to the sanctions, should not be ignored. To say that the sanctions were working to keep Sadaam crippled does not address the fact that they were killing the Iraqi people and were being blamed on the USA by Sadaam and his supporters.

We learned following the first World War and the incredible depression in Germany that if left unchecked this kind of economic situation is a perfect breeding ground for hatred and power struggle. So what I want to know is, how would you have removed the sanctions to save the Iraqi people, and yet still keep Sadaam in check or remove him from power without resorting to war?

Using your argument, there were quite a few other countries which should have had their governments replaced before we ever got around to giving Iraq a new government. Comparing life expectancy, literacy rates, poverty and human rights abuses:

Iraq had the 47th lowest human development index and ranked 15th in human rights abuses.
Sierra Leone worst in human development index, 5th in human rights abuses.
DemRepCongo had the 21st lowest human development index and ranked 1st in human rights abuses.
Rwanda ranked 9th lowest in HDI and 2nd in human rights abuses.
Pakistan 26th and 11th.
There's several other examples from the following lists :
http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2001/en/pdf/Addendum4.pdf
http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2001/en/pdf/back.pdf
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Tables/4_col_tables/0,5737,258329,00.html

All are a perfect breeding ground for hatred and power struggle. FYI - Afghanistan ranked 16th in human rights abuses and in the bottom five for HDI.

You can't (and shouldn't) replace every government that is doing an inept job. The decision on Iraq should have been based solely upon Iraq's threat to us, either directly or indirectly.

[Spectre32]

For the sake of argument, why don't you assume that you are wrong, since you are, and then try again.

Since Kerry is not my boy, what are you left with? A dumb Bush and his lies. Sorry.

How does your contention here, even if it were true, which it is not, justify the mistakes and incompetance of Bush that I pointed out in the citation that you referred to?


I assume you were democrat, so since you are not, then my accuization is false. Sorry.

[BobG]

A few have disagreed with the title of this thread or feel that you should wait until the results are in to decide whether Iraq was a blunder or not.

It's the soundness of the thinking and the planning that determine whether it is a blunder or not. If a person makes a huge blunder and still succeeds, it's just lucky - not good planning. Likewise, good planning and decision making don't ensure success - they just make it extremely likely.

In spite of a multitude of people who's job it is to know, the Bush administration invaded Iraq on bad information with an insufficient number of forces and there is no sign that they had prepared for anything other than a best case scenario.

It's a blunder regardless of how things eventually turn out.

[studentx]

How do you prepare for carbombs and suicidebombers?

[pelastration]

You Boy kerry voted to go to war with Iraq.
Sure.
Kerry based his vote on information and motives given by the president. Now it's clear that info and motives were intentionally false.
Who to blame?
Kerry for his vote or Bush for his scam?
Who "made" the cause to vote?

[BobG]

How do you prepare for carbombs and suicidebombers?

Are carbombs and suicide bombers a new tactic?

A truck full of explosives was used both in Oklahoma City and in the '93 attack on the World Trade Center. Suicide bombers have been a fact of life in the Palestinian-Israel conflict for quite a few years.

While you can't defend every attack successfully, it certainly shouldn't have been a surprise that they would occur.

[Prometheus]

How do you prepare for carbombs and suicidebombers?
I am sorry, but I don't understand who you are referring to with your pronoun 'you'.

Furthermore, are you really asking how the administration might have prepared for them, or are you asking how they might have anticipated that they might be used?

What exactly is your point, and who are you addressing it to?

[kat]

Sure.
Kerry based his vote on information and motives given by the president. Now it's clear that info and motives were intentionally false.
Who to blame?
Kerry for his vote or Bush for his scam?
Who "made" the cause to vote?

Not exactly, Kerry can't blame Bush for his vote. The National Intelligence Estimate was written for Kerry and other senate members. In the fall of 2002, members of the Senate Intelligence Committee had requested that the CIA produce the document so that senators would have up to date intelligence to base their votes on. Unfortunately, If memory serves me correctly, Kerry later admitted to not having bothered to read the intelligence report.

[pelastration]

Not exactly, Kerry can't blame Bush for his vote. The National Intelligence Estimate was written for Kerry and other senate members. In the fall of 2002, members of the Senate Intelligence Committee had requested that the CIA produce the document so that senators would have up to date intelligence to base their votes on. Unfortunately, If memory serves me correctly, Kerry later admitted to not having bothered to read the intelligence report.
That's not my point.
Bush wanted this war.
So there was need to vote.
When the Senate voted it was based on intelligence influenced by Feith, Wurmser, Rumsfeld, Perle ... all from PNAC. They wanted this war.
When Kerry voted he based his opinion on "facts".
But these "facts" were false.
You can not blame Kerry to have voted "yes" if the information given to the Senate was incorrect.
You should blame the guys how organized the scam.

Bush used this to show call Kerry a flip-flop, but Bush himself is a flop-flop all over his policy. Almost everything he did was wrong or went wrong. Flop-Flop or FLOP^2.
I can't understand kat that a smart (?) women like you prefer a flop-flop like Bush as your leader.

[Spectre32]

That's not my point.
Bush wanted this war.


Again He DID NOT want to go to war with Iraq. He wanted to mess Afganastan up. Rummy and Cheney were pushing for war. Initaly Bush was unsure as what he wanted to do.

Bush used this to show call Kerry a flip-flop, but Bush himself is a flop-flop all over his policy. Almost everything he did was wrong or went wrong. Flop-Flop or FLOP^2.

C'mon dude, it's proven fack that Kerry voted for forcable movementr in Iraq, and then when his chances of becomming presidnet increased, all of a sudden his views changed. And by your logic "everything that bush did went wrong, and therefore he is flop-flopping himself"???? C'mon That dosen't even make sense Hes not flip-floping himself, otherwise right now he would be saying, No i didn't want to send troops into iraq. Christ, he F-ed up, thats all. He didn't Flip-Flop.

[pelastration]

Again He DID NOT want to go to war with Iraq. He wanted to mess Afganastan up. Rummy and Cheney were pushing for war. Initaly Bush was unsure as what he wanted to do.

C'mon dude, it's proven fack that Kerry voted for forcable movementr in Iraq, and then when his chances of becomming presidnet increased, all of a sudden his views changed. And by your logic "everything that bush did went wrong, and therefore he is flop-flopping himself"???? C'mon That dosen't even make sense Hes not flip-floping himself, otherwise right now he would be saying, No i didn't want to send troops into iraq. Christ, he F-ed up, thats all. He didn't Flip-Flop.

If Rummy and Cheney wanted war and Flop-Flop didn't that means he's not a real president. That means Cheney is the real president. That means Flop-Flop is not a real Leader.

[Spectre32]

Frist off it takes quite a Man to be president of the US, to say hes not a leader is a lie. You call him a flip flop I ask you to present hard facutal proof As I have, for Kerry.

[Prometheus]

Again He DID NOT want to go to war with Iraq. He wanted to mess Afganastan up. Rummy and Cheney were pushing for war. Initaly Bush was unsure as what he wanted to do.
We all recognize that Bush does not have the intelligence to make decisions for himself, nor are his handlers stupid enough to let him. But I think that Bush wanted to overthrow Saddam to show his daddy that he is better than him.


C'mon That dosen't even make sense Hes not flip-floping himself, otherwise right now he would be saying, No i didn't want to send troops into iraq. He didn't Flip-Flop.
You are right. If he were flip-flopping, he would say that the reason for going to war with Iraq was never because of WMDs, but instead because of xxx (where xxx is the raison du jour).

[Prometheus]

Frist off it takes quite a Man to be president of the US,
Support this contention with hard facts. Also, provide evidence that a woman could not do the job.

to say hes not a leader is a lie.
It would also be meaningless. Yes, he is the leader of the country, even though he is a puppet of Cheney and the neo-cons. To say that he is an idiot, a failure, and a divider of the country is true, is it not?

You call him a flip flop I ask you to present hard facutal proof
Get real. What is his justification for the war in Iraqa? How many times has that changed. Was he not very against the 9/11 commission? Now what? Are you seriously contending that you have never seen any evidence that Bush has ever flip-flopped? Just read the news, unless you consider it all to be left-wing lies.

[pelastration]

I said Flop-Flop is a Flop-Flop: everything he does is a FLOP!!!
Health, energy, war, environment, human rights, civil right, preventing 9/11, international relations, economy, job, SECURITY (!!!), ... , all flops. ... that's why I call him no longer Bush but give him his new nickname Flop-Flop. President Flop-Flop.

Flop-Flop is incredible. Having created largest deficite ever and blaming Kerry for creating deficte for his health plan. Bringing more security in US by reducing police force in US and putting more police on the streets in Bahgdad. Haha. And you buy that! You admire Flop-Flop's logic. :rofl:

And btw, I didn't say Flop-Flop was a Flip-flopper.

[Spectre32]

Get real. What is his justification for the war in Iraqa? How many times has that changed. Was he not very against the 9/11 commission? Now what? Are you seriously contending that you have never seen any evidence that Bush has ever flip-flopped? Just read the news, unless you consider it all to be left-wing lies.

His justification for the war in Iraq was that they had WMD's. They havwn't found any, but that was his justification, never really changed all that much. He kept saying that they had WMD's and then he tossed in other crap into the mix, about this or that. The 9/11 Commision thing was shady, I didn't understand that.

[Spectre32]

preventing 9/11


Christ, YET AGAIN... IT wasn't all his fault. He was Clintions for christs sake, he let Al Quida build up to the strength it was, and HE DID NOTHING. It's not all of bush's fault.

[pelastration]

It's not all of bush's fault.
I agree. But most.

[studentx]

Are carbombs and suicide bombers a new tactic?

A truck full of explosives was used both in Oklahoma City and in the '93 attack on the World Trade Center. Suicide bombers have been a fact of life in the Palestinian-Israel conflict for quite a few years.

While you can't defend every attack successfully, it certainly shouldn't have been a surprise that they would occur.

It doesnt matter whether carbombs and suicidebombers are a new tactic or a surprise, there still is little or nothing you can do against it. Whatever tactic the military would have used to fight this war, carbombs can make it a blunder.

I am sorry, but I don't understand who you are referring to with your pronoun 'you'.

Furthermore, are you really asking how the administration might have prepared for them, or are you asking how they might have anticipated that they might be used?

What exactly is your point, and who are you addressing it to?

With "you" i mean anyone. Im asking what can be done against carbombs and suicidebombers? The only thing i can think of is changing the minds of those who damage themselves to damage others. The world is sweeping up this hatred for Bush and this is the blunder in my eyes. This IS the feeding ground for terrorism.

[Artman]

Using your argument, there were quite a few other countries which should have had their governments replaced before we ever got around to giving Iraq a new government. Comparing life expectancy, literacy rates, poverty and human rights abuses:

Iraq had the 47th lowest human development index and ranked 15th in human rights abuses.
Sierra Leone worst in human development index, 5th in human rights abuses.
DemRepCongo had the 21st lowest human development index and ranked 1st in human rights abuses.
Rwanda ranked 9th lowest in HDI and 2nd in human rights abuses.
Pakistan 26th and 11th.
There's several other examples from the following lists :
http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2001/en/pdf/Addendum4.pdf
http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2001/en/pdf/back.pdf
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Tables/4_col_tables/0,5737,258329,00.html

All are a perfect breeding ground for hatred and power struggle. FYI - Afghanistan ranked 16th in human rights abuses and in the bottom five for HDI.

You can't (and shouldn't) replace every government that is doing an inept job. The decision on Iraq should have been based solely upon Iraq's threat to us, either directly or indirectly.What is stopping us from helping the people in those countries? If it is their own leaders and not US supported UN sanctions, the hatred is not necessarrilly aimed at the USA. Pakistan aided us during the war in Afghanistan, doesn't sound like the government their is as great a threat right now. Iraq was war torn from a fight with the USA, under sanctions supported by the USA, and Iraqi state supported terrorist organizations had already attacked varous US entities.

Also, weapons of mass destruction had existed in Iraq during the First Gulf War, what makes all of you think that they were kept under tight enough security to keep state sponsered terrorist groups from gaining access to them, even if Sadaam had complied with the UN ban?

Is this really the worst blunder in USA history? I still am not convinced.

[Artman]

A few have disagreed with the title of this thread or feel that you should wait until the results are in to decide whether Iraq was a blunder or not.

It's the soundness of the thinking and the planning that determine whether it is a blunder or not. If a person makes a huge blunder and still succeeds, it's just lucky - not good planning. Likewise, good planning and decision making don't ensure success - they just make it extremely likely.

In spite of a multitude of people who's job it is to know, the Bush administration invaded Iraq on bad information with an insufficient number of forces and there is no sign that they had prepared for anything other than a best case scenario.

It's a blunder regardless of how things eventually turn out.Whose blunder though? The CIA was crippled during the previous administration. It takes years to develope inside information networks in non-friendly nations.

[BobG]

What is stopping us from helping the people in those countries? If it is their own leaders and not US supported UN sanctions, the hatred is not necessarrilly aimed at the USA. Pakistan aided us during the war in Afghanistan, doesn't sound like the government their is as great a threat right now. Iraq was war torn from a fight with the USA, under sanctions supported by the USA, and Iraqi state supported terrorist organizations had already attacked varous US entities.

Also, weapons of mass destruction had existed in Iraq during the First Gulf War, what makes all of you think that they were kept under tight enough security to keep state sponsered terrorist groups from gaining access to them, even if Sadaam had complied with the UN ban?

Is this really the worst blunder in USA history? I still am not convinced.
Pakistan's Musharraf made quite a turn around when we invaded Afghanistan - at significant risk to his own life, no less. Considering Pakistan's environment, it didn't take a huge intellect to know who'd be the second country invaded if Al-Qaida escaped across the border. Libya has also made some big changes. Invading Aghanistan doesn't solve the problem in itself, but it sure made it seem dangerous to be at the top of the list for harboring terrorists. In other words, Afghanistan was a good start at reducing the risk of terrorism. Continuation along those lines would have been good.

Syria had a much closer association with terrorists than Iraq. Iran's leaders are much more closely associated with Islamic extremist ideology than Hussein was. In fact, Hussein's ideology was almost the opposite of Al-Qaida's. He believed in a secular tyrannical dictatorship. Your Islamic extremist groups believe in a religious tyrannical dictatorship. While some kind of Iraq-terrorist link was possible (like giving them money or offering bounties as long as they stayed past the end of a ten-foot pole), it was highly unlikely that an Islamic extremist group such as Al-Qaida would have been allowed to set up shop in Iraq when Shiite groups were causing Hussein problems.

There is one valid reason for invading Iraq and it has very little to do with terrorism. I see Iraq under Hussein as somewhat similar to Yugoslavia under Tito. Both countries were being held together only through the oppression of a dictator. The world tolerated Tito because of the fear of what would happen after him. Those fears came true.

The world would have tolerated Hussein until his death, hoping one of his sons could maintain control. How long the Iraq problem could have been pushed into the future is unknown. Eventually, a post-Hussein Iraq would be a problem that had to be dealt with. Waiting for the problem to occur would have brought in a much stronger coalition than the one the US took in by forcing matters and, more importantly, would have allowed us to concentrate on problems that are a higher priority right now.

P.S. - Your arguments are always good, Artman. At least, I have to think about yours awhile.

P.P.S. - Where did JohnDubya go? I don't think I could consider any of his posts intelligent, but it still bothers me that he hasn't been around for awhile. Not that I'd admit to actually missing him.

[pelastration]

I like Michael Moore's comments:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-09-22[/B]

He ends with:
"I know you hate the words "flip" and "flop," so I won't use them both on you. In fact, I'll use just one: Flop. That is what you are. A huge, colossal flop. The war is a flop, your advisors and the "intelligence" they gave you is a flop, and now we are all a flop to the rest of the world. Flop. Flop. Flop.

And you have the audacity to criticize John Kerry with what you call the "many positions" he has taken on Iraq. By my count, he has taken only one: He believed you. That was his position. You told him and the rest of congress that Saddam had WMDs. So he -- and the vast majority of Americans, even those who didn't vote for you -- believed you. You see, Americans, like John Kerry, want to live in a country where they can believe their president.

That was the one, single position John Kerry took. He didn't support the war, he supported YOU. And YOU let him and this great country down. And that is why tens of millions can't wait to get to the polls on Election Day -- to remove a major, catastrophic flop from our dear, beloved White House -- to stop all the flipping you and your men have done, flipping us and the rest of the world off.

We can't take another minute of it.

Yours,

Michael Moore"


And now the Republicans ask Prosecutors to Arrest Michael Moore.
:yuck:
[URL]http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-10-06.

[pelastration]

He ends with:
"I know you hate the words "flip" and "flop," so I won't use them both on you. In fact, I'll use just one: Flop. That is what you are. A huge, colossal flop. The war is a flop, your advisors and the "intelligence" they gave you is a flop, and now we are all a flop to the rest of the world. Flop. Flop. Flop.

And you have the audacity to criticize John Kerry with what you call the "many positions" he has taken on Iraq. By my count, he has taken only one: He believed you. That was his position. You told him and the rest of congress that Saddam had WMDs. So he -- and the vast majority of Americans, even those who didn't vote for you -- believed you. You see, Americans, like John Kerry, want to live in a country where they can believe their president.

That was the one, single position John Kerry took. He didn't support the war, he supported YOU. And YOU let him and this great country down. And that is why tens of millions can't wait to get to the polls on Election Day -- to remove a major, catastrophic flop from our dear, beloved White House -- to stop all the flipping you and your men have done, flipping us and the rest of the world off.

We can't take another minute of it.

Yours,

Michael Moore"

And now the Republicans ask Prosecutors to Arrest Michael Moore.
:yuck:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-10-06.

[TENYEARS]

Ivan, what was done in IRAQ was no blunder, it was purposeful and rode on the emotions of the american people. It was obvious to me before he even began his smirking crusade, his purpose and his intent. I am certain of this. He will be held accountable. 200 billion it's only money right, but enough money to begin the ball rolling to what the world must do if it is to survive. Instead we will buy new arms. He wanted to completely emtpy the old stock pile so we could buy newer weapons. Well done. Well done. In the end america will pay dearly for his injustice. The dam fool. I do have one question? How many of you were on that band wagon after 9/11? How many?

[phatmonky]

Ivan, what was done in IRAQ was no blunder, it was purposeful and rode on the emotions of the american people. It was obvious to me before he even began his smirking crusade, his purpose and his intent. I am certain of this. He will be held accountable. 200 billion it's only money right, but enough money to begin the ball rolling to what the world must do if it is to survive. Instead we will buy new arms. He wanted to completely emtpy the old stock pile so we could buy newer weapons. Well done. Well done. In the end america will pay dearly for his injustice. The dam fool. I do have one question? How many of you were on that band wagon after 9/11? How many?

bandwagon?

[kat]

if it were a Bush supporter giving incentives to vote, better believe the likes of Moore would be howling and demanding justice. Moore should know better, slippery slope and all that.

[kat]

How many! How many were tooting your horn before 9/11!
what is a bandwagon anyway? a wagon with a band? er....

[TENYEARS]

Kat, I like the avatar. 9/11 has more meaning to me than potentially any human in existance. On that day I achieved certainty. Certainty is an experience beyond the popular rush, beyond convinced, beyond thought, beyond reason. It's a place a truth is born. Like the woods of maine.

[phatmonky]

Kat, I like the avatar. 9/11 has more meaning to me than potentially any human in existance. On that day I achieved certainty. Certainty is an experience beyond the popular rush, beyond convinced, beyond thought, beyond reason. It's a place a truth is born. Like the woods of maine.

When I read your post I experienced enlightenment, for it was deeper than anything I have read before. Suddenly all the the synapeses of my brain began to fire, my eyes dilated, and my soul became alive. For TENYEARS, when I read your post I was free. Like the hill country of Texas.

[kat]

Oh lord........

[phatmonky]

Oh lord........
Kat, I like your avatar. Join us on our ride to existentialism. The events of 9/11 fire deep into the metaphysical and beyond....to the great bandwagon of truth!

[studentx]

The american stockpile of weapons has been emptied?

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay here are the latest excuses for the invasion. It would be interesting to see how many post war reasons are given that were never mentioned before the war:

He was gaming the system
He was amassing a fortune

--C. Rice 10/10/04

In the last debate Bush complained:
He would still be living in a palace

Sure, this wasn't personal. Was Saddam's occupation of a palace a reason for the war? :rolleyes:

[Artman]

P.S. - Your arguments are always good, Artman. At least, I have to think about yours awhile.

P.P.S. - Where did JohnDubya go? I don't think I could consider any of his posts intelligent, but it still bothers me that he hasn't been around for awhile. Not that I'd admit to actually missing him.
Thanks. I was just thinking your posts are very thought provoking. I like JohnDubya's posts as well.

[pelastration]

How many! How many were tooting your horn before 9/11!
what is a bandwagon anyway? a wagon with a band? er....
Bandwagon effect, economic term. Followers of new products.

[TENYEARS]

Bandwagon, the followers of anything which the masses follow even if it be off of cliffs. The popular belief of the day. Much like the majority of most forum members. Fish in bowls. When will you break out of your bowls? You don't even know you are in bowls, but the walls acknowleged quite well. Swim on fish and circle your bowls.

[phatmonky]

Bandwagon, the followers of anything which the masses follow even if it be off of cliffs. The popular belief of the day. Much like the majority of most forum members. Fish in bowls. When will you break out of your bowls? You don't even know you are in bowls, but the walls acknowleged quite well. Swim on fish and circle your bowls.

I have entered a debate with yoda......

[Gokul43201]

I tell you once, and once again : there ain't no place for sarcasm in these forums.

[phatmonky]

I tell you once, and once again : there ain't no place for sarcasm in these forums.

There's no place for ridiculous imagery instead of actual debate....errr, swim gokul!