Problem with relativity of simultaneity original example

[baivulcho]

In special relativity the relativity of simultaneity is explained with the following example.
We have one frame of reference - a train moving from left to right with constant speed v relatively to the embankment, and second frame of reference - the embankment itself. On the embankment there are points A and B and their midpoint M. On the train there is the point M'. When M and M' meet each other, two lightnings strike both A and B. The observer on the embankment sees that the two flashes of light meet at the midpoint M. But since the train is moving and the point M' with it, M' moves towards B and therefore the observer on the train will see that the beam from B will arrive first at point M' and after that will arrive the beam from A. And so simultaneity is relative - for one observer the two events are simultaneous, but for the other they are not.

But lets imagine for a moment that when the points M and M' coincide we put points A' and B' on the train which coincide respectively with A and B. So it is the same whether we say the beams start at A and B or at A' and B' - at the moment of the lightning strikes, those points coincide with each other.

Lets imagine the people on the embankment and those on the train are aware of the experiment that is taking place. What is the point of view for the people on the embankment? They know that the speed of light is constant c in every direction, and therefore when the point M and M' meet they begin to wait for the two flashes of light and expect the light beams to meed at their midpoint M - the light needs equal time to travel the equal distances AM and BM. So they are right for themselves.

Now lets consider the point of view of the train passengers. They know about the principle of relativity and so too expect the speed of light to be constant c in every direction. At the moment when point M and M' meet, the people start to wait for the flashes too. They know that point A' and B' are equally distant from the point M', because when M and M' coincide(and the flashes occur) - A and A', and B and B' coincide too(whether we take length contraction into account or not shouldn't matter because the important thing here is that the length A'M' is equal to B'M' according to the train passengers - according to them A and B are equally distant from M, and M' and M coincide at that moment with or without length contraction). So knowing that A'M'=B'M' and expecting the speed of light to be the same both from A' to B' and from B' to A', they would expect the light to cover the distances A'M' and B'M' for the same time, and therefore meet at point M'.

What prevents the passengers from making such conclusions, and not be surprised when the two flashes don't meet at their midpoint M'? What is the difference between the train and the embankment - surely we can say that the train is stationary and the embankment is moving relatively to it with velocity v, so when the flashes occur at points A' and B', the point M will be moving towards A' and the people on the train will expect that for the people on the embankment the flashes won't be simultaneous. So is this difference in the way the two beams arrive at points M and M' real - for the people on the train the beams will meet at some other point? Or it is only a matter of relative conclusion - the observer on the embankment will expect the beams will meet only on his midpoint, and the observer on the train will expect the same thing?

[JesseM]

Now lets consider the point of view of the train passengers. They know about the principle of relativity and so too expect the speed of light to be constant c in every direction. At the moment when point M and M' meet, the people start to wait for the flashes too. They know that point A' and B' are equally distant from the point M', because when M and M' coincide(and the flashes occur) - A and A', and B and B' coincide too(whether we take length contraction into account or not shouldn't matter because the important thing here is that the length A'M' is equal to B'M' according to the train passengers - according to them A and B are equally distant from M, and M' and M coincide at that moment with or without length contraction). So knowing that A'M'=B'M' and expecting the speed of light to be the same both from A' to B' and from B' to A', they would expect the light to cover the distances A'M' and B'M' for the same time, and therefore meet at point M'.
But this argument only makes sense if the train observers for some reason assume both strikes happened simultaneously in their own frame--why should they do that, a priori? Einstein wasn't proposing that the embankment observers would just assume a priori that the strikes happened simultaneously in the embankment frame, he was including that as a fact unique to this particular physical scenario. There's nothing odd about the notion that two lightning strikes at equal distances from a given observer (in this case the train observer) might happen at different times in the observer's frame, in which case that observer will see the light from them at different times. If I'm sitting in my house for a week, and on Monday I see the light from a strike 1 mile to my North, and on Friday I see the light from a strike 1 mile to my South, I'm obviously not going to think that both strikes happened simultaneously and therefore be puzzled by the "paradox" that I saw the light from them at different times, I'll just conclude that one strike happened Monday and the other happened on Friday.

Of course you could imagine a different physical scenario than the one Einstein proposed, one where the strikes do happen simultaneously in the train frame, but this would mean they happen non-simultaneously in the embankment frame so the observer at M doesn't see the light from each one at the same time. In any specific physical scenario, there's going to be some specific fact about which frame the strikes were simultaneous in and which they weren't.

[baivulcho]

But this argument only makes sense if the train observers for some reason assume both strikes happened simultaneously in their own frame--why should they do that, a priori?
That is exactly what I want you to imagine - that they are aware of the experiment. Because the flashes of lightning occur just when points M and M' coincide, therefore both observers can experience that moment equally well, and will know that two beans of light are traveling(from point A and B for the embankment and from A' and B' for the train) towards their middle points, and can begin to wait for the beams of light to arrive. Isn't it only natural for both of them to expect the beams to cover the equal distances from the front to the middle and from the back to the middle for the same time?

[JesseM]

So then lets imagine this experiment:
In the moment when the six points A, A' M, M', B and B' coincide respectively, at points A, A', B and B' strike lightnings.
What do you mean by "in the moment" though? In the train frame, the distance between A and B is shorter than the length of the train (i.e the distance between A' and B') because of length contraction, so the moment that A and A' coincide happens earlier than the moment that B and B' coincide.
So then the flashes from A' and B' will meet at M', and those from A and B meet at M, right?
No, in both frames the light beams meet each other at the position of M--all frames must agree about local facts confined to a single location in space and time, like when two objects meet one another. Of course in the train frame M is moving, and at the time the two light beams meet M is closer to the back of the train (B') than to the front (A').
If you are in the middle of the train and two lightnings strike the front and the rear end, then the light from them should meet at the middle
Not if the strikes happen at different moments! Suppose the distance from the end of a train to the middle is 5 light-seconds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-second), and one strike hits the front end at t=30 seconds, and then another strike hits the back at t=32 seconds. In that case, if each beam travels at c so it takes 5 seconds to move 5 light-seconds, naturally the light from the front strike will reach the center at t=35 seconds, and the light from the back strike will reach the center at t=37 seconds.
If so wouldn't it be odd for the observer on the embankment to see that the flashes in his frame meet in one point and those from the other meet at other point
That can't happen, as I said all frames must agree about local events. For example, suppose there was a bomb at the center of the train with light-sensors on both sides, programmed to explode if it detects flashes of lights on each side at the same moment--if different frames could disagree about whether the bomb explodes that would obviously be a pretty serious problem!
Probably I am just asking the same question, but it seems to me that for both observers the flashes have to cover equal distances(A'M' and B'M' for the train and AM and BM for the embankment), but for one observer they meet at the middle and for the other they don't. This seems to me contradicts with the idea that the light propagate with constant velocity for every observer in every direction. It looks like the train observer will conclude that the beam from B' has traveled faster, which is totally wrong.
Again, why do you think there's a problem with the train observer just saying the lightning strikes themselves happened at different moments, so that's why the light from each one reached him at different moments?

[baivulcho]

So you mean that in the original Einstein's example when it is said "Just when the flashes of lightning occur, the point M' coincides with the point M....", it is meant that when the points coincide the flashes occur but only for the observer on the embankment - so the whole example is described from the embankment observer's stand point. For the observer on the train first occurs the flash at B then the points M and M' meet each other and after that the strike at A occurs - and what the passenger describes(first flash from B and then that from A) is logical consequence of the the sequence of the events. So my confusion came from the way the example is described from like a third(distant) point of view. The conclusion is that when we describe something in the theory of relativity we describe it either from one frame of reference or from another - never from some murky outside third view point.

[JesseM]

So you mean that in the original Einstein's example when it is said "Just when the flashes of lightning occur, the point M' coincides with the point M....", it is meant that when the points coincide the flashes occur but only for the observer on the embankment - so the whole example is described from the embankment observer's stand point.
Yes, any statement about simultaneity (which includes any statement about one event happening 'when' another event is happening at a different location) is meant to be from the embankment frame's view. Of course local events, like the fact that the lightning strikes the front at the same position and time that A and A' coincide, are true in both frames.
For the observer on the train first occurs the flash at B then the points M and M' meet each other and after that the strike at A occurs
I thought A was the front of the train and B was the back? Either way, in the train frame first the front of the train coincides with the front point on on the track (which I was calling A), then later M and M' coincide, then later the back of the train coincides with the back point on the track (which I was calling B).
The conclusion is that when we describe something in the theory of relativity we describe it either from one frame of reference or from another - never from some murky outside third view point.
Yes, that's right, any description involving frame-dependent facts such as simultaneity or length can only be from the perspective of a particular frame.

[Erland]

I never liked this example (although I think that it was formulated by Einstein himself). I think it is confusing and hard to understand. To understand the relativity of simultaneity, it is much easier to imagine a light being turned on in the middle of the train. The light reaches the front and the back of the train simultaneously, according to an observer on the train. But according to an observer on the embankment, the light will reach the back of the train before it reaches the front of the train, because according to such an observer, the light that reaches the back of the train will have travelled a shorter distance than the light that reaches the front of the train, since train is moving, according to this observer.

[harrylin]

But this argument only makes sense if the train observers for some reason assume both strikes happened simultaneously in their own frame--why should they do that, a priori? Einstein wasn't proposing that the embankment observers would just assume a priori that the strikes happened simultaneously in the embankment frame, he was including that as a fact unique to this particular physical scenario. There's nothing odd about the notion that two lightning strikes at equal distances from a given observer (in this case the train observer) might happen at different times in the observer's frame, in which case that observer will see the light from them at different times. If I'm sitting in my house for a week, and on Monday I see the light from a strike 1 mile to my North, and on Friday I see the light from a strike 1 mile to my South, I'm obviously not going to think that both strikes happened simultaneously and therefore be puzzled by the "paradox" that I saw the light from them at different times, I'll just conclude that one strike happened Monday and the other happened on Friday.

Of course you could imagine a different physical scenario than the one Einstein proposed, one where the strikes do happen simultaneously in the train frame, but this would mean they happen non-simultaneously in the embankment frame so the observer at M doesn't see the light from each one at the same time. In any specific physical scenario, there's going to be some specific fact about which frame the strikes were simultaneous in and which they weren't.

Yeah, personally I find it easier to inverse the scenario and give the example of a light bulb in the middle of the train. That avoids such unlikely pure chance events.
Edit: I now see that I'm not the only one with that preference! :-)

[Nicodemus]

I never liked this example (although I think that it was formulated by Einstein himself). I think it is confusing and hard to understand. To understand the relativity of simultaneity, it is much easier to imagine a light being turned on in the middle of the train. The light reaches the front and the back of the train simultaneously, according to an observer on the train. But according to an observer on the embankment, the light will reach the back of the train before it reaches the front of the train, because according to such an observer, the light that reaches the back of the train will have travelled a shorter distance than the light that reaches the front of the train, since train is moving, according to this observer.

At the time, it would have been a very intuitive explanation (I think it still is) given the prevalence of commuter rail, and the often unique experience associated (Which train is moving)? I can see why the mind would drift in that direction, and I think it's unfair to dismiss it because it's not instantly grasped by all.

That said, time has passed so maybe tradition needs to give way to accessiblity about a century later. :)

[ghwellsjr]

Suppose we have two light sources, one moving in the middle of the moving train and one stationary in the middle of the station platform and they both flash when they are co-located, will the light on the train reach the ends of the train simultaneously according to an observer on the train and will the light on the platform reach the ends of the platform simultaneously according to an observer on the platform?

Of course the answer is yes.

Now repeat the experiment with one of the light sources failing to flash. Is anything different?

Of course the answer is no.

To me, this is a much more interesting scenario to analyze.

[Erland]

Suppose we have two light sources, one moving in the middle of the moving train and one stationary in the middle of the station platform and they both flash when they are co-located, will the light on the train reach the ends of the train simultaneously according to an observer on the train and will the light on the platform reach the ends of the platform simultaneously according to an observer on the platform?

Of course the answer is yes.

Now repeat the experiment with one of the light sources failing to flash. Is anything different?

Of course the answer is no.

To me, this is a much more interesting scenario to analyze.
Are you suggesting that there is a problem here?

[ghwellsjr]

No, just a more interesting (to me) scenario to consider, since we are considering different scenarios from the OP.

[Nicodemus]

ghwellsjr's example makes sense to me, and I've already been clear that I like Einstein's version.

[Adel Makram]

Ok now suppose that there are 2 extra-observers put at B` and A` ends of the train. They are instructed to send light signals once their detectors are stroke by the lightening. Then the light signals from both ends go to a mirror in the middle of the train ( where the middle observer is there) and reflected back to B` and A` where they can register them and record the times of arrival. In that particular case, the recorded times of final arrival of the signal will be equal for both B` and A` simply because the light from B` takes shorter time to reach the middle mirror but compensates that by taking longer time after reflection relative to A`. So both B` and A` observer will agree that both lightening events happen at the same time same like the conclusion of the embankment observer. However, there will be a definite disagreement with the middle observer M` who still insists that B` happens ahead of A`
So the final conclusion for all the observers in the train is that the train is moving in the direction of B`. This can simply solve the puzzle. However, as we learnt from Mickelson experiment, that no such way to know that the inertial FOR is moving because the laws of physics and c remain invariant. This makes new paradox. It also undermines the weakness of Einstein`s hypothesis that the simultaneity is a relative thing because:
1) it assumed that the whole calculation is made from the embankment observer point of view
2) it does not give clear definition of what does detecting an event means relative to different observers apart from using just light signal to detect the events

[bcrowell]

This thread is from February. Please don't post in old threads like this. If there is something you want to discuss that you think was not addressed, please start a new thread.

[Doc Al]

Ok now suppose that there are 2 extra-observers put at B` and A` ends of the train. They are instructed to send light signals once their detectors are stroke by the lightening. Then the light signals from both ends go to a mirror in the middle of the train ( where the middle observer is there) and reflected back to B` and A` where they can register them and record the times of arrival. In that particular case, the recorded times of final arrival of the signal will be equal for both B` and A` simply because the light from B` takes shorter time to reach the middle mirror but compensates that by taking longer time after reflection relative to A`. So both B` and A` observer will agree that both lightening events happen at the same time same like the conclusion of the embankment observer.
No. Recall that the lightning strikes are simultaneous only in the embankment frame, but not in the train frame. The observers on the ends of the train will detect the lightning strikes at different times (per their clocks) and thus send their light signals out at different times.
However, there will be a definite disagreement with the middle observer M` who still insists that B` happens ahead of A`
Sure, but that's because your assumption that A' and B' detect the lightning strikes at the same time is incorrect.

[Adel Makram]

The assumption I made that A` and B` are simultaneous is based on a though experiment I proposed when a reflecting mirror put in the middle of the train. Remember that Einstein`one was also a thought experiment. The strikes of lightening seen on A` and B` happen at the same time for the stationary observer but the calculation based on detecting them relative to M` is also based on the stationary observer`s point of view. And for my model with 2 observers located at the 2 ends of the train, their observation should coincide after receiving the reflecting signals. I did not propose that A` and B` are simultaneous or not, I just flow with the experiment. There is no preference to assume that the simultaneity should be observed according to M` while it could be recorded using 2 observers A` and B` and then they can use a conventional communication channels to share their results regarding the time of recording the signals !

[Doc Al]

The assumption I made that A` and B` are simultaneous is based on a though experiment I proposed when a reflecting mirror put in the middle of the train. Remember that Einstein`one was also a thought experiment. The strikes of lightening seen on A` and B` happen at the same time for the stationary observer but the calculation based on detecting them relative to M` is also based on the stationary observer`s point of view. And for my model with 2 observers located at the 2 ends of the train, their observation should coincide after receiving the reflecting signals. I did not propose that A` and B` are simultaneous or not, I just flow with the experiment. There is no preference to assume that the simultaneity should be observed according to M` while it could be recorded using 2 observers A` and B` and then they can use a conventional communication channels to share their results regarding the time of recording the signals !
I don't see your point. If train observers A' and B' detect the arrival of the reflected light at the same time (according to their clocks) then there's no way that observer train observer M' (at the middle of the train) could have seen light from A' and B' arrive at different times. Note that we are merely discussing observations made from a single frame--that of the train--so relativity hasn't even entered the picture yet.

(Note that this is a different scenario than that used by Einstein.)

[Adel Makram]

We are discussing the interpretation of observation made in train FOR based on the consideration of the stationary observer according to the laws of optics and light transmission. Remember that the whole process started when lightening strikes the 2 ends of train at the same time as seen by the external observer. The problem is that when you regard the ordering of events is due to interpretation of M`, the 2 ends-observers will disagree with M` either after recording their observation from the reflected light from M`-mirror or after communication by conventional channels for instance,,, There is one way out for that,,,,,, is to accept the fact that the train is moving in direction of B` ( which contradicts the relativity principle)

[Doc Al]

We are discussing the interpretation of observation made in train FOR based on the consideration of the stationary observer according to the laws of optics and light transmission. Remember that the whole process started when lightening strikes the 2 ends of train at the same time as seen by the external observer.
OK, so now you're back to Einstein's example: The lightning strikes at the ends of the train are simultaneous according to the platform observers. Good.
The problem is that when you regard the ordering of events is due to interpretation of M`, the 2 ends-observers will disagree with M` either after recording their observation from the reflected light from M`-mirror or after communication by conventional channels for instance,,,
No, none of the train observers disagree. All their observations are consistent with the lightning striking the ends of the train at different times (per their clocks). For some reason, you think that observers A' and B' will detect the lightning at the same time; not so.
There is one way out for that,,,,,, is to accept the fact that the train is moving in direction of B` ( which contradicts the relativity principle)
:confused: Of course the train is moving. Why do you think that contradicts the relativity principle?

[Adel Makram]

No, none of the train observers disagree. All their observations are consistent with the lightning striking the ends of the train at different times (per their clocks). For some reason, you think that observers A' and B' will detect the lightning at the same time; not so.

If you flow with the thought experiment that observers A` and B` registration of events depends on the time of arrival of signals after reflection from M`-mirror, yes of course there will be an expected disagreement according to external observer consideration of light transmission. But in the reality, no such disagreement. So, the conclusion is the temporal ordering of events according to M`-observer alone is Wrong
This could be also seen when trying to answer the following question: Why interpretation of events should rely on M`-observer and not on A` & B` according to the external observer` point of view?

:confused: Of course the train is moving. Why do you think that contradicts the relativity principle?

Because for train observers, no such way to know that they are moving or not based on any experiment deploying light transmission ( equivalent to the negative result of Mickelson)

[Doc Al]

Because for train observers, no such way to know that they are moving or not based on any experiment deploying light transmission ( equivalent to the negative result of Mickelson)
You are perhaps thinking that the measurements made on the train by observers A', B', and M', will allow them to tell that they are moving in some absolute sense. No. All the measurements allow them to conclude is that the lightning struck the ends of the train at different times. Which is true (in the train's frame of reference).

Now if the train observers communicate with the platform observers and compare notes, sure they will be able to tell that they are in relative motion. No surprise there.

[Adel Makram]

try to answer the following question: Why interpretation of events should rely on M`-observer and not on A` & B` according to the external observer` point of view?

[Doc Al]

try to answer the following question: Why interpretation of events should rely on M`-observer and not on A` & B` according to the external observer` point of view?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say. All you need are A' and B' looking at their local clocks when the lightning strikes. They record the time and later compare notes. But all three train observers agree! The lightning struck A' and B' at different times and thus the light from those strikes reached M' at different times. What's the problem?

[Adel Makram]

Why do you assume that lightening struck A` and B` at different times? What kind of light transmission arrangement justifies this assumption?

[Doc Al]

Why do you assume that lightening struck A` and B` at different times? What kind of light transmission arrangement justifies this assumption?
If you're using Einstein's scenario, the lightning strikes simultaneously with respect to the platform observers. Einstein shows that the train observers will see the strikes happen at different times.

If you would like to discuss a different scenario, you'd better define it.

[DrGreg]

Why do you assume that lightening struck A` and B` at different times?Why do you assume that lightning struck A` and B` at the same time? As I understand it, in this thread it has already been specified that the strikes were at the same time relative to the platform observers, so you can't just assume they are at the same time relative to anyone else.

On the other hand, if you want to explore a different scenario where the strikes are simultaneous relative to the train, you can do so, but this is a different experiment so none of the previous results apply.

[Adel Makram]

What I am trying to say clearly is:
1) The M` observer has no such preference over the end-observers to interpret the results according to the external observer point of view
2) You assume that A` and B` have different timing, while if you make them use the reflected signal from M`-mirror, they will coincide their measurements ( simply because the all events have started from the moment of striking the train ends at the same time according to the external observer point of view regarding the light transmission)
3) The Train thought experiment is mainly used to show that difference is only when interpreted from external observer MIND

[Adel Makram]

You claim that A` and B` are different based on what? On the interpretation of M`? Ok,,, so why M` sees events in different time? because M` moves in the direction of B`-signal faster than than A`one,,, so why that happens? because you consider that from the embankment point of view,,, Pronto
But if you see the experiment whwn A` and B` are involved ( also according to the embankment point of view),,, the matter changes clearly,,, pronto

[Doc Al]

What I am trying to say clearly is:
1) The M` observer has no such preference over the end-observers to interpret the results according to the external observer point of view
I don't understand this statement.
2) You assume that A` and B` have different timing, while if you make them use the reflected signal from M`-mirror, they will coincide their measurements ( simply because the all events have started from the moment of striking the train ends at the same time according to the external observer point of view regarding the light transmission)
Here you assume that somehow using a mirror at M' will show the reflected light arriving at A' and B' simultaneously. Why do you assume that? In Einstein's scenario, he shows that the light from the strikes arrives at M' at different times. Nothing is merely 'assumed'.
3) The Train thought experiment is mainly used to show that difference is only when interpreted from external observer MIND
I don't understand this statement. The train thought experiment is used to show that things that are simultaneous in one frame are not necessarily simultaneous in another.

[Doc Al]

You claim that A` and B` are different based on what? On the interpretation of M`? Ok,,, so why M` sees events in different time? because M` moves in the direction of B`-signal faster than than A`one,,, so why that happens? because you consider that from the embankment point of view,,, Pronto
The only data we are given is from the embankment point of view. Of course we'll use it!

In the Einstein scenario you are told that the lightning strikes are simultaneous in the embankment frame. That's the only information you are given. But that's enough to show that the train observers will see the lightning striking at different times. (It is shown, not 'assumed'.)
But if you see the experiment whwn A` and B` are involved ( also according to the embankment point of view),,, the matter changes clearly,,, pronto
I don't understand this statement. All frames agree that the light strikes M' at different times!

[Adel Makram]

i also agree about different timing at M` but not for A` and B`,,, lets say that M` wants to share his data with A` and B`,,, then he sends light signals once he received ( equivalent to using M`-mirror),,, if M` sees B` before A` then according to the train FOR, B` should also receive the reflected signal before A`. But as seen from the external observer, no such thing happens, why? because this time, the light has to travel a bit longer distance to reaches B` than A` and finally they will be coincide their measurments

[Doc Al]

i also agree about different timing at M` but not for A` and B`,,, lets say that M` wants to share his data with A` and B`,,, then he sends light signals once he received ( equivalent to using M`-mirror),,, if M` sees B` before A` then according to the train FOR, B` should also receive the reflected signal before A`.
He does! According to the train clocks, B' receives the signal before A'.
But as seen from the external observer, no such thing happens, why? because this time, the light has to travel a bit longer distance to reaches B` than A` and finally they will be coincide their measurments
It's certainly true that according to embankment clocks the light strikes the observers at the ends of the train at the same time. But not according the train clocks. That's the entire point of the thought experiment--to illustrate the relativity of simultaneity.

[Adel Makram]

But what happens actually is because A` and B` coincide their measurements after receiving the reflection from M`,,, they should do so both for the ground observer and for the train ( for the ground it is easy to imagine that and for the train this should be done after having a communication with each other). There is no point when you say that M` should be have different timing for both frames of references and on the other hand, A` and B` should not. As long as, the All matter is judged from the external observer point of view :)

[Doc Al]

But what happens actually is because A` and B` coincide their measurements after receiving the reflection from M`,,, they should do so both for the ground observer and for the train ( for the ground it is easy to imagine that and for the train this should be done after having a communication with each other).
The folks on the train measure distance and time using their own clocks, of course. Everyone uses their own clocks! What you want to do is compare what the train clocks would say to what the embankment clocks would say. There's nothing special about the embankment clocks. That's one of the key aspects of relativity.
There is no point when you say that M` should be have different timing for both frames of references and on the other hand, A` and B` should not.
The difference between them is that arrival of the light at M' happens at the same location on the train, but A' and B' are at different ends of the train. That makes a big difference! If two things happen at the same time at the same place (to M', for example), then everybody in every frame agrees that they happen at the same time. (And using their own clocks, of course.) But if two things happen at the same time but at different locations in one frame, they will be seen to happen at different times in another frame.
As long as, the All matter is judged from the external observer point of view :)
Uh, no.

[Adel Makram]

Firstly: I guess that you should correct the word in your second passage,,, that if 2 things happen at different times at the same location ( for M`) because M` timing is different for every FOR
Secondly: it seems that you do not examine the principle of relativity of simultaneity; you just use it as it was proposed. The real test of this principle will not be achieved unless you complete the thought experiment I proposed. Please do not stop at the stage when the light is just received by M`, complete the story,,, A` and B` have their own local times
Thirdly: the whole issue of relativity of simultaneity is based on 1 fact and 2 interpretations. The fact is M` receives the signal at different time, it was the real observation made by the external observer. This observation has 2 interpretations: for the external one: light from B` reaches M` faster than A` . For the train ‘s observer: B` happens before A`. After reflection from M`-mirror back to both ends, the light reaches A` and B` at the same time ( this is another fact similar to the first one). This time the interpretation made by the external observer: Light to A` catches up the light to B` and appears at both times. For the train observer: ( A` at the same time as B`),,,, done

[Doc Al]

Firstly: I guess that you should correct the word in your second passage,,, that if 2 things happen at different times at the same location ( for M`) because M` timing is different for every FOR
No, I meant what I said. If the light from A' and B' reaches M' at the same time, then every frame agrees that the light arrived simultaneously. And if, as in our case, the light reaches M' at different times, then every frame agrees that the light arrive at different times. This is basic and must be understood before continuing. Please confirm that you understand this.
Secondly: it seems that you do not examine the principle of relativity of simultaneity; you just use it as it was proposed. The real test of this principle will not be achieved unless you complete the thought experiment I proposed. Please do not stop at the stage when the light is just received by M`, complete the story,,, A` and B` have their own local times
We are discussing Einstein's thought experiment. If you have proposed a different one, you must define it properly.
Thirdly: the whole issue of relativity of simultaneity is based on 1 fact and 2 interpretations. The fact is M` receives the signal at different time, it was the real observation made by the external observer.
Right. And all frames, not just the 'external' one, agree on this.
This observation has 2 interpretations: for the external one: light from B` reaches M` faster than A` .
Everyone agrees that the light from B' arrived at M' before the light from A'.
For the train ‘s observer: B` happens before A`.
Right: according to the train frame, the lightning hit B' before it hit A'.
After reflection from M`-mirror back to both ends, the light reaches A` and B` at the same time ( this is another fact similar to the first one).
No it doesn't (at least not in the train frame). How could it? A' and B' are equidistant from M'.
This time the interpretation made by the external observer: Light to A` catches up the light to B` and appears at both times.
Sure, from the 'external' frame.
For the train observer: ( A` at the same time as B`),,,, done
False. Done!

You have to explain why you think that if the light reflects from M' at different times that it can somehow reach A' and B' at the same time. All of this is within the train frame--it has nothing to do with the 'external' frame.

[Adel Makram]

You have to explain why you think that if the light reflects from M' at different times that it can somehow reach A' and B' at the same time. All of this is within the train frame--it has nothing to do with the 'external' frame.

This is a fact observed by the eyes of all observers ( similar to the first fact that M` timing was different). My explanation is the train observer must recognize that because B` should have received the reflect signal earlier than A` which did not happen, then the train must be moving in the direction of B` ( which is against the principle of relativity,,, or the Mickelson famous experiment would be +ve)
However, because I still believe in the principle of relativity, I can understand that if the light source was originated from B` before A` at the local arrangement and this time based on the MIND of the train observer (not the ground one) , then the reflected light should also reaches B` before A`,,, because in this example I consider the train FOR is inertial one and the laws of physics and the speed of light are invariant
This means that the 2 situations are different. It is different to arrange the experiment from the external point of view with the lightening is a primarily external source than to arrange the timing based on the train observer local arrangement which is of course would maintain the principle of relativity
This raises up a conclusion that any sort of Transformation between the 2 FORs should be asymmetrical. And because the well known Lorentz T (LT) is symmetrical one, this means that LT is not true

[Doc Al]

This is a fact observed by the eyes of all observers ( similar to the first fact that M` timing was different).
No it's not. In fact it directly contradicts the fact that the light arrived at M' at different times.

In a thought experiment you cannot just assume whatever you like, you must provide an argument.

My explanation is the train observer must recognize that because B` should have received the reflect signal earlier than A` which did not happen, then the train must be moving in the direction of B` ( which is against the principle of relativity,,, or the Mickelson famous experiment would be +ve)
However, because I still believe in the principle of relativity, I can understand that if the light source was originated from B` before A` at the local arrangement and this time based on the MIND of the train observer (not the ground one) , then the reflected light should also reaches B` before A`,,, because in this example I consider the train FOR is inertial one and the laws of physics and the speed of light are invariant
This means that the 2 situations are different. It is different to arrange the experiment from the external point of view with the lightening is a primarily external source than to arrange the timing based on the train observer local arrangement which is of course would maintain the principle of relativity
This raises up a conclusion that any sort of Transformation between the 2 FORs should be asymmetrical. And because the well known Lorentz T (LT) is symmetrical one, this means that LT is not true
Please read the sticky at the top of this forum titled IMPORTANT! Read before posting (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=17355), which I now quote:
This forum is meant as a place to discuss the Theory of Relativity and is for the benefit of those who wish to learn about or expand their understanding of said theory. It is not meant as a soapbox for those who wish to argue Relativity's validity, or advertise their own personal theories. All future posts of this nature shall either be deleted or moved by the discretion of the Mentors.

[Adel Makram]

No it's not. In fact it directly contradicts the fact that the light arrived at M' at different times.

Let` s say that there is no observer in the middle of the train, only a place for M`-mirror. Now the light reflected from the mirror will reach A` and B` at the same time as seen by the external observer,,, So according to his thought projection regarding what would be observed by the A` and B` observers,,, why they should interpret that their timing of receiving the reflected signal are not the identical? and back to on of my earlier question, why the relativity of simultaneity is merely based on the existence of M` ?

[Doc Al]

Let` s say that there is no observer in the middle of the train, only a place for M`-mirror. Now the light reflected from the mirror will reach A` and B` at the same time as seen by the external observer,,,
Before worrying about external observers, first answer the question: According to train observers, if the light reflects from M' at different times, will A' and B' receive the reflections at the same time or at different times?

This is a very simple question which has nothing to do with changing frames or with Lorentz transformations.

[JDoolin]

Maybe the attached animation will help.

[Adel Makram]

According to train observers, if the light reflects from M' at different times, will A' and B' receive the reflections at the same time or at different times?

OK: first, according to train observers means what?

1) either means according to what would be expected from the train observers to see according to the external observer perspective ( remember again , all the thoughts is from the external observer point of view and I would like to call it thought projection),,, in this case A` and B` should receive the signal at the same time

2) Or means according to what would be expected from the train observers to see according to the train observers perspective ,,, in this case yes A` will be different than B`

[Adel Makram]

but the second one needs different arrangement than in our thought experiment ( because our thought experiment is merely depends on the thought projection of the external observer for all frames)

[Doc Al]

OK: first, according to train observers means what?
It means just what it sounds like it means: The train observers have synchronized clocks. When the light reaches them, they record the time of arrival on their clocks.

They certainly wouldn't look to an outside frame of reference to decide what their own clocks would read.
1) either means according to what would be expected from the train observers to see according to the external observer perspective ( remember again , all the thoughts is from the external observer point of view and I would like to call it thought projection),,, in this case A` and B` should receive the signal at the same time
Again, you are confusing the two different perspectives.

From the view of the 'external' observer: The light arrives at A' and B' at the same time according to external clocks, but not according to the the train clocks! The only way to make sense of this is to realize that from the view of the 'external' frame, the clocks used by the train observers are not synchronized.
2) Or means according to what would be expected from the train observers to see according to the train observers perspective ,,, in this case yes A` will be different than B`
Of course. So you agree that according to the train observers very own clocks, the light arrives at different times?

Everybody agrees on this! Even the external observer agrees!

[Doc Al]

but the second one needs different arrangement than in our thought experiment ( because our thought experiment is merely depends on the thought projection of the external observer for all frames)
Forget about 'thought projection'. Let's talk actual clocks.

[Adel Makram]

Ok now I would like to extend the thought experiment a bit. I would like to show that the interpretation of train observers according to the arrangement made from the external observer point of view is different from the interpretation made when the arrangement made from the train observer point of view
The light from B` is relatively moving toward M` faster than A` . So for M`, he will see the light from B` is blue-shifted and from A` is red-shifted. But after reflection from M`-mirror, the amount of Doppler shifted from each direction is compensated again and appears not-shifted as measured by A` and B`. so A` and B` would communicate with each other and share their results which will be no Doppler shift for the arrival signal after reflection. But if the matter is judged from train observer arrangement, the coming blue-shifted signal from B` should remain blue-shifted after the reflection (because reflection will not change the color of the light) and the same for A`. So the communication between A` and B` will be different color or shifted-in short even though there would be a time delay between the arrival of signal to both ends (according to the common interpretation of the thought experiment) This is a paradox. Because the physical reality should remain invariant relative to all observers
To make it more objective, let`s put a another pair of reflecting mirrors but this time at A` and B`. And those mirrors should be adjusted to reflect the coming light from M` to a point equidistant from both ends but located outside the train ( like projecting onto a big screen so all observers can see). OK, so because the reflected rays from M` will be in phase, they will be projected from A` and B` mirrors onto the outer screen and forming an interference pattern with bright and dark stripes. For the external observer point of view, the train observers can see that interference pattern from his train window. But if train observers A` and B` see the events at different time and because the coming rays from M` still maintains the color of the original signal directed from both ends before reflection on M`, there must be a phase-change when the rays reflected from A` and B` and the interference pattern on the outer screen will be a superposition of rays and not just bright and dark strips. This makes a paradox. Because the interference pattern on the outer screen is invariant-physical reality and should be seen the same by all observers.
This indicates that the arrangement of the thought experiment according to the external observer ( with all his expectations about what M` interpretation of simultaneity is different from the arrangement that could be made according to the train observer per Se when the light just hits M` from B` direction before A` direction)

[Doc Al]

Ok now I would like to extend the thought experiment a bit. I would like to show that the interpretation of train observers according to the arrangement made from the external observer point of view is different from the interpretation made when the arrangement made from the train observer point of view
Are you claiming that the time recorded on the train observer's clocks when the light arrives depends on who views it? :rolleyes:

The light from B` is relatively moving toward M` faster than A` . So for M`, he will see the light from B` is blue-shifted and from A` is red-shifted. But after reflection from M`-mirror, the amount of Doppler shifted from each direction is compensated again and appears not-shifted as measured by A` and B`. so A` and B` would communicate with each other and share their results which will be no Doppler shift for the arrival signal after reflection. But if the matter is judged from train observer arrangement, the coming blue-shifted signal from B` should remain blue-shifted after the reflection (because reflection will not change the color of the light) and the same for A`. So the communication between A` and B` will be different color or shifted-in short even though there would be a time delay between the arrival of signal to both ends (according to the common interpretation of the thought experiment) This is a paradox. Because the physical reality should remain invariant relative to all observers
To make it more objective, let`s put a another pair of reflecting mirrors but this time at A` and B`. And those mirrors should be adjusted to reflect the coming light from M` to a point equidistant from both ends but located outside the train ( like projecting onto a big screen so all observers can see). OK, so because the reflected rays from M` will be in phase, they will be projected from A` and B` mirrors onto the outer screen and forming an interference pattern with bright and dark stripes. For the external observer point of view, the train observers can see that interference pattern from his train window. But if train observers A` and B` see the events at different time and because the coming rays from M` still maintains the color of the original signal directed from both ends before reflection on M`, there must be a phase-change when the rays reflected from A` and B` and the interference pattern on the outer screen will be a superposition of rays and not just bright and dark strips. This makes a paradox. Because the interference pattern on the outer screen is invariant-physical reality and should be seen the same by all observers.
This indicates that the arrangement of the thought experiment according to the external observer ( with all his expectations about what M` interpretation of simultaneity is different from the arrangement that could be made according to the train observer per Se when the light just hits M` from B` direction before A` direction)
Sorry, but the Doppler shift is irrelevant to this thought experiment. All that matters is that the speed of light is the same in every frame.

[Adel Makram]

Are you claiming that the time recorded on the train observer's clocks when the light arrives depends on who views it? :rolleyes:

Not exactly, what I meant to say is: no way to know how the times could be recorded by A` and B`based on the external observer expectation

Sorry, but the Doppler shift is irrelevant to this thought experiment. All that matters is that the speed of light is the same in every frame.

I did not mean to discuss the Doppler-shift experiment, this was just an example of how different outcomes of the thought experiment fools the expectation of the external observer regarding the way the train observers see how things proceed. Any way I am not very sad because no comment on the Doppler-part of the experiment. But I would be very disappointed when that would have come from Pioncare or Einstein if they were still alive

[Doc Al]

I did not mean to discuss the Doppler-shift experiment, this was just an example of how different outcomes of the thought experiment fools the expectation of the external observer regarding the way the train observers see how things proceed. Any way I am not very sad because no comment on the Doppler-part of the experiment. But I would be very disappointed when that would have come from Pioncare or Einstein if they were still alive
I did comment: It's irrelevant to Einstein's thought experiment. No one's getting 'fooled'; simultaneity is frame-dependent.

[Adel Makram]

I did comment: It's irrelevant to Einstein's thought experiment. No one's getting 'fooled'; simultaneity is frame-dependent.

1) The external observer can not make this statement without a M`-observer. If he can, it would be enough just A` and B` for him to reach the same conclusion
2) The relativity of Simultaneity based on the Einstein`s Thought Experiment is a personal speculation of the external observer, not a real principle of physics

[JDoolin]

This raises up a conclusion that any sort of Transformation between the 2 FORs should be asymmetrical. And because the well known Lorentz T (LT) is symmetrical one, this means that LT is not true

I don't think the Lorentz Transformation is "symmetrical" in the sense you are describing.

If you have two trains passing each other in opposite directions.

What are really simultaneous events on one train will appear to happen in consecutive order, back to front, from the other train.

What appears to happen simultaneous from the other train, is really happening in consecutive order from front to back from the same train.

(Edit: Caveats, Clarifications, Qualifications: I say "what is really happening" when I mean, watching events happen on your own train, whereas I say "what appears to happen" when describing events that happen on the other train. Of course, "what appears to happen on the other train" is still "really" happening, but I hope you can understand the gist. This also doesn't take into account any effects of the delay caused by the speed of light, so when I say "what appears to happen" that is after you've accounted for any speed-of-light-delay-effects, and calculating the object where it "was" when the light left it, not how it actually appears, which is the way this thought experiment is usually done.)

[Doc Al]

1) The external observer can not make this statement without a M`-observer. If he can, it would be enough just A` and B` for him to reach the same conclusion
You miss the point of the thought experiment. The purpose of using M' is just to make it easy to analyze the scenario. But the fact that A' and B' are hit by lightning at different times according to their clocks does not depend on having an observer at M'. All you have to agree upon is that the light flashes reach the middle of the train at different times. This is a simple fact agreed upon by all.
2) The relativity of Simultaneity based on the Einstein`s Thought Experiment is a personal speculation of the external observer, not a real principle of physics
Nonsense.

Please reread my comments at the bottom of post #39 before continuing.

[Adel Makram]

1) Again, the arrangement made by the external observer of the experiment and his expectation about what A` and B` would observer is different from the arrangement made by the train observer M` if M` conducts the experiment maintaining a time delay between emitting the light toward B` before A` ( in the second situation, the external observer can not be sure that the light from B` and A` would arrive him at the same time)
2) The Einstein thought experiment can not explain the Doppler-Paradox I proposed in comment #47

[Adel Makram]

The prediction that the light reaches A` and B` at different time is an indirect assumption made by the external observer. He used the fact that M` knows that light speed is constant and the reflected rays should reach both ends at different times. This is another common sense assumption similar to the pre-relativity common sense that the 2 events happening at the same time should be so for all observers,,, the external observer can`t give any visual evidence based on optics to prove that,,, in fact it might be impossible for him to see A` and B` at the same time and at different time. I also have no idea if there is any computer simulation that can show so,,, If the external observer wants to know whether A` and B` times are different, he should ask them once the lightning struck A` and B`

[Adel Makram]

Again, if the external observer considers what M` might see on one hand and what he sees on the other hand, the Doppler-paradox will emerge,,, this is similar to the statement that the external observer considers that M` knows that B` happens before A` and on the other hand sees that A` and B` occurs together at the same time. So the conclusion is: any optical arrangement made to know when M` see A` and B` happen in the train by the external observer will create a paradox, therefore the timing of A` and B` will remains just an assumption unless the external observer ask them directly once they receive the lightning

[Doc Al]

The prediction that the light reaches A` and B` at different time is an indirect assumption made by the external observer. He used the fact that M` knows that light speed is constant and the reflected rays should reach both ends at different times. This is another common sense assumption similar to the pre-relativity common sense that the 2 events happening at the same time should be so for all observers,,, the external observer can`t give any visual evidence based on optics to prove that,,, in fact it might be impossible for him to see A` and B` at the same time and at different time. I also have no idea if there is any computer simulation that can show so,,, If the external observer wants to know whether A` and B` times are different, he should ask them once the lightning struck A` and B`
Any observer is perfectly entitled to use accepted physics to predict what the clock readings will be for A' and B' when the lightning struck them. The 'external' observer deduces that the clock readings will be different. And when he contacts those observers later, their measurements will confirm that.

[Adel Makram]

I would like to say that assuming a non-simultaneous events in a FOR different from that of the observer is based on common-sense logic. But, if the observer wants to be sure, he should have an objective optical evidence or develops a new thought experiment not based on light transmission alone

[Adel Makram]

I have found a semi solution to the Doppler paradox. Regarding the interference pattern part, the light from both ends A` and B` has to reach a middle point in the embankment FOR (M) so as to enter into a slit and then double slit before projecting into screen. Now, The train observer sees the external observer moving from B` to A` direction with a velocity = -v. and when the 2 ends at the embankment received the light from A` and B`, he see that the light fro B` which happens first has to travel a longer distance than from A` to reach the middle of the embankment point. And also the accumulated phase change from B` and A` should be compensated when they reach M. SO the net effect on the screen will be black and bright strips which is the same result as the external observer

[Adel Makram]

However, because the train observer will see the lights from A` and B` will be received by embankment observer at the ends of the train as different colour, he can ask them directly about the colour of lights they received. Then, he will found a difference between what he sees as a different colour and what the external observer see as same colour and hence the paradox will emerge again because there is no such way to transform the different colour of lights at B` and A` to the same colour at B and A. This time will be a subjective paradox

[JDoolin]

So this "Doppler Paradox" you're describing is the fact that the external observers see different colors than the internal observers?

[Adel Makram]

So this "Doppler Paradox" you're describing is the fact that the external observers see different colors than the internal observers?

yes it is

[Doc Al]

yes it is
And what makes you think that that is a 'paradox'? (Further, how is it even relevant to the point of the Einstein train example?)

[Adel Makram]

Because this time the train observer will consider that the 2 lights will be received by B` and A` as different colours from the start not because he is moving toward the B` end
It is relevant to the thought experiment because the similarity of interpretation. In the Einstein`s one, the train observer will consider that B` and A` times are different from the start too ( same like colours example)

[Doc Al]

Because this time the train observer will consider that the 2 lights will be received by B` and A` as different colours from the start not because he is moving toward the B` end
It is relevant to the thought experiment because the similarity of interpretation. In the Einstein`s one, the train observer will consider that B` and A` times are different from the start too ( same like colours example)
Nope, that's all irrelevant. Realize that the events in question are:
(1) Lightning strikes the rear of the train (where A and A' happen to be)
(2) Lightning strikes the front of the train (where B and B' happen to be)

The issue is when do those events occur. We are given that they occur simultaneously according to the track frame (and thus the clocks used by A and B). We use a basic fact agreed to by all that the light reaches the middle of the train (M') at different times to deduce that according to the train frame (and thus the clocks used by A' and B') the lightning strikes occurred at different times. This is just basic physics using the premises of relativity.

[JDoolin]

I have found a semi solution to the Doppler paradox. Regarding the interference pattern part, the light from both ends A` and B` has to reach a middle point in the embankment FOR (M) so as to enter into a slit and then double slit before projecting into screen. Now, The train observer sees the external observer moving from B` to A` direction with a velocity = -v. and when the 2 ends at the embankment received the light from A` and B`, he see that the light fro B` which happens first has to travel a longer distance than from A` to reach the middle of the embankment point. And also the accumulated phase change from B` and A` should be compensated when they reach M. SO the net effect on the screen will be black and bright strips which is the same result as the external observer

Part of the problem is you're trying to turn a thought experiment into a laboratory experiment. Not that that is a terrible thing to do, but in this case, we don't have the laboratory equipment necessary to set it up.

The thought experiment asks the question "How is it possible for the external observers to observe the same events as the internal observers, when both see an equal speed of light?" For some time, this question seeme more than a question, but a paradox; an enigma; the sort of question that couldn't possibly have a reasonable answer.

However, as so often happens, once the question is understood, the solution is forthcoming. The solution is to say that those events which appear simultaneous for the internal abservers, happen consecutively, back to front, for the external observers.

That answer is complete, and need not be embellished with further complication.

If you want to add into that set-up bunch of diffraction grating equipment and some fluorescent lights, so that the observers can test for red-shift and blue-shifting of the light, you're free to do so in your thought experiment, but I would agree with Doc Al, that it's irrelevent to the question of simultaneity.

[Adel Makram]

I am doing so because I believe that the famous thought experiment only uses limited resources to conclude a general phenomena
Let`s make a new experiment. Let`s make the arrangement so that when A, A` and B, B` coincide, 2 small slits put at B` and A` are opened for a brief time to allow just 2 photons to enter from a source put behind the train ( on the opposite side of the external observer),,, let`s make the distance between the 2 slit small enough comparable to the wave-length of the photons to cause an interference pattern. This brief opening of A` and B` can be done mechanically or even optically
For the external observer, he sees A` and B` open at the same time and therefore the 2 photons entering the 2 slits and create an interference pattern on a screen
But according to Einstein interpretation, the train observer sees B` opens before A` , so B` is opened just for a brief moment and shut before A` opens,,, so at one time, only one slit opens and therefore no interference pattern could ever occur. But when he looks at the screen from his window, he will see an interference pattern on the screen.
Can the train observer now explains why this interference pattern occurs when just the slits open one at a time

[Adel Makram]

Part of the problem is you're trying to turn a thought experiment into a laboratory experiment. Not that that is a terrible thing to do, but in this case, we don't have the laboratory equipment necessary to set it up

This is very healthy thing to do not a terrible one as you said. Firstly, I used other thought experiments to disprove the Einstein one. Secondly, if the Einstein` one can stand for many objections but one, it means that it is wrong. Thirdly, I have not problem to refute my own experiments if it is feasible and I did in the Doppler one

[Doc Al]

Firstly, I used other thought experiments to disprove the Einstein one.
You did nothing of the kind. Since all you are interested in is 'proving Einstein wrong' it's time to close this thread.

Again I'll quote from the sticky at the top of this forum titled IMPORTANT! Read before posting (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=17355):
This forum is meant as a place to discuss the Theory of Relativity and is for the benefit of those who wish to learn about or expand their understanding of said theory. It is not meant as a soapbox for those who wish to argue Relativity's validity, or advertise their own personal theories. All future posts of this nature shall either be deleted or moved by the discretion of the Mentors.